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EastEnders: Den or Kathy's return? |
| View Poll Results: Whose return was handled better - Den or Kathy's? | |||
| Den's |
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27 | 52.94% |
| I preferred Kathy's, personally |
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13 | 25.49% |
| Both equally good/bad |
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11 | 21.57% |
| Voters: 51. You can't vote on this poll right now - are you signed in? | |||
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#1 |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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EastEnders: Den or Kathy's return?
Whose resurrection from the dead did you prefer - Den's (September 2003) or Kathy's (last year)?
Den's characterization invariably suffered severely in parts of 2004, but I'm on about his initial return story and scenes with Sharon/Dennis/Vicki, etc., not the flop it may or may not have later become. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Den, Kathys return during the live episode was great, and a shock. But what followed was woeful.
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#3 |
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Quote:
Den, Kathys return during the live episode was great, and a shock. But what followed was woeful.
Live week aside, the closest recognition Kathy's got since her return is a few trends on Twitter. It hasn't been remotely as blockbuster or revolutionary as Den's return. I've always loved Kathy but It's never going to be realistic that she'd abandon her children for nearly a decade and let them believe she was dead but I think they're just trying to gloss over all the plot holes and pretend it never happened. At least Den's return was just about plausible and kept in with the personality of his character. |
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#4 |
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Both equally as SOR.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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I voted for Den's return because Doctor Bench clarified that he was referring to the initial episodes and Den's were more dramatic, proper event television.
However, I think overall Kathy's return will prove to be more successful as she's really settled back in well and they have nailed her characterisation (not speaking up enough about Bobby killing Lucy aside which everyone is doing to be fair). She'll likely be there for years to come. Den's return went downhill quite quickly with him acting like a gangster, luring women half his age into bed when he was lucky to be with someone beautiful like Chrissie (another affair with Jan would've been more believable than Kate being his mystery woman, he also nearly slept with Imposter Sam IIRC), developing an unhealthy obsession with Sharon even going as far as to renounce any love for Vicky who Den doted on in the 80s but had to stay away from, and becoming even more of a pervert in the Zoe fiasco. LG himself was not happy with the direction his character took. So far there have been no such complaints from Gillian Taylforth and other than Kathy's initial return story which was sketchy and depicted her as selfish and money-grabbing, she has no cause to make any. Of course Den's return was the story in his case. So you could see why they went all out for those episodes. Also, it was the first time it had been done and as good as Kathy is, Den and Angie are the two biggest characters the show has produced. Kathy's had her fair share of big storylines and they've been good but Den lends himself more to high octane drama. Rather than being the story, Kathy's return was the start of a story with Gavin/Sharon which had potential but it wasn't executed at all. One thing I did like about Kathy's return is that she didn't just stroll back into the square as if nothing had happened. She saw and spoke to characters in private who drove home to her the consequences of what she'd done. The funny thing is I think Kathy's return was deliberately under played and that they weren't aiming for blockbuster. If they were they would've cleared the decks and given us 2/3 handers etc, instead they let it play out in fairly regular episodes. With a larger focus it could still have been bad but at least you'd have got a sense of them trying to make something of it. I think keeping it low key was an attempt to gloss over the plot holes as DB suggests. I have no evidence of this but I really don't think they would've included inane subplots like the Elaine/Babe one if they wanted it to be a blockbuster series of episodes. |
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#6 |
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I bloody adored Den's return episode/week. It was just perfect. Well as perfect as it could be without Angie around. Such a shame it went sour as LHolmes says above. The Watts are the show's biggest loss IMO.
Kathy's return with Ian was very disappointing but I did enjoy her scenes at St Pancras and initial meetings with Phil, Sharon and Ben. The aftermath has been poor so far but I think aftermath is something the current team struggle with in most of their storylines. |
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#7 |
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Den's return was epic tv. But Den was an epic, larger-than-life character and his return from the dead warranted this kind of spectacle. Kathy was an ordinary woman and the writers were always going to have trouble selling the 'she faked her death' story to the viewers, which is why they deliberately underplayed her return and focused on the Gavin/abuse aspect (as LHolmes said).
The important difference between Den and Kathy's respective resurrections was that Den was the kind of person you could believe would fake his death; Kathy wasn't. But that doesn't excuse the shoddy storyline we actually got. The scenes at St Pancras were great, and I loved Sharon vs Kathy in the Arches, but most of Kathy's return story was unwatchable, repetitive rubbish. Kathy's return should have been fundamentally about her, Ian and Ben, but what we actually got was a mess. I voted for Den because his return story was by far the best; however, Kathy's overall return to the show has been much better. Kathy has slotted back into the Square far more naturally than Den did in 2003, and unlike Den they haven't totally trashed her character. |
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#8 |
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Quote:
Agreed. Den's return gave EastEnders its highest ratings of this century (Lisa shoots Phil reveal aside), which even the twenty-fifth anniversary live failed to top.
I think the omnibus usually added on about 2m in those days, which of course the Live ep in 2010 got on BBC Three alone, but there's no stats on what percentage of second showing viewers are first time ones, and I imagine for event episodes that number decreases somewhat. I know 19m+ was being touted as a final reach figure for the live ep but the unique viewers is probably a good million or two lower. The original showing of the live ep in 2010 was something like 5/6m viewers higher than an average figure back then. I'm not sure how many extra viewers Den's return lured in. Of course you could argue if the live ep in 2010 brought in more non-regular viewers that it's only because most of those were watching regularly in 2003. Quote:
I've always loved Kathy but It's never going to be realistic that she'd abandon her children for nearly a decade and let them believe she was dead but I think they're just trying to gloss over all the plot holes and pretend it never happened. At least Den's return was just about plausible and kept in with the personality of his character.
I agree they are trying to gloss over things with Kathy but I don't mind. I can let them have this one as it's great having her back. She has really settled in well.Faking one's death is more suited to Den but I think there were holes in his story as well. The logistics of it. They cut a shot of him in the water in 1989 but I think enough was shown to make any subsequent return not wholly believable. We heard the gun go off and a splash; how long was he in the water for playing dead (presumably the hit man at least saw him fall in and would've observed him lifeless for a moment or two, before turning and running), how did he get all the way to Jan's without being seen by concerned members of the public, the police (looking for Den in the area) etc while losing blood, when he arrived at Jan's did she patch up what must've been a significant wound that likely still had the bullet in it? How did he eventually get out of the country when the only dodgy contacts Den knew were the firm and they were out for his blood? Quite a lot was glossed over with Den too but in terms of melodrama/spectacle his return eps win hands down. Den should've returned during Sharongate if at all. The 1990 story they did to give closure to him still left the door open in some fan's eyes as we never saw a body then either, but IIRC Sharon found some ring that belonged to him, she later gave it to Dennis. That was odd because Den never wore any jewellery.
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#9 |
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I agree that glossing over Kathy's "death" was the best thing they could have done, and it hasn't bothered me all that much. Faking her death was never in-character anyway so let's forget it happened and move on.
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#10 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Den's return was brilliant.I loved every minute of it. Kathy had the brilliant shock during Live Week, but her return was botched.
As to which character slotted back in the best, Kathy wins though. Den was an awful in his second stint, whereas Kathy has been more seamless. |
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#11 |
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Dens even though they did destroy part of his character on his second stint.
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#12 |
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Quote:
I agree that glossing over Kathy's "death" was the best thing they could have done, and it hasn't bothered me all that much. Faking her death was never in-character anyway so let's forget it happened and move on.
Whenever I think of her not being there for Ben for 10 years, I just think to myself 'well it evens things out after Phil wasn't there for Ben for the first 10 years of his life'. She has settled back in a lot better than Den did. Parts of Den's return were excellent to be fair, usually Sarah Phelps episodes, but the bad stuff was awful and really tainted him. |
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#13 |
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Both weren't great, i'd say Den's marginally
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#14 |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Den's actual return was great, although somewhat diluted compared to Kathy's as it had been widely reported for months that it was happening. My WeightWatchers leader even cut our meeting short to ensure we all got home in time to watch it
However what subsequently followed absolutely ruined the legend of Den Watts for me. Perhaps it will be better in the long run to have a quieter reintroduction to the land of the living. In comparison, the only hint about Kathy's resurrection I had seen was speculation on here and tbf, I'd been seeing that for nearly a decade. So for jaw dropping jumping up, effing and jeffing at the television while my daughter (who was sitting so quietly I had forgotten she had a special pass to stay up and watch the anniversary ep) nearly wet herself laughing it has to be Kaff. In less waffly summary, for initial impact I'd say Kath, but for immediate reveal and return aftermath Den (on the basis that there was some). |
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#15 |
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Den's return and the first live episode are closer than you probably think 16.66m > 16.41m. I just checked BARB. For some reason I had 17m in my head for Den's return but maybe that was the press rounding up. It seems BARB were no longer adding the omnibus in 2003.
I think the omnibus usually added on about 2m in those days, which of course the Live ep in 2010 got on BBC Three alone, but there's no stats on what percentage of second showing viewers are first time ones, and I imagine for event episodes that number decreases somewhat. I know 19m+ was being touted as a final reach figure for the live ep but the unique viewers is probably a good million or two lower. The original showing of the live ep in 2010 was something like 5/6m viewers higher than an average figure back then. I'm not sure how many extra viewers Den's return lured in. Of course you could argue if the live ep in 2010 brought in more non-regular viewers that it's only because most of those were watching regularly in 2003. As for whether LIVE 2010 lured in more regular viewers, you're probably right given that average episodes of EastEnders back in 2003 were capable of attracting up to 13 million viewers, whereas the two months in the build-up to the live rated in the 9.5 to 11 million bracket, the highest they ever were under Santer's tenure. Weekly officials, in millions, for week commencing 22 and 29 September, respectively (2003) . EASTENDERS (MON 2000) 13.72 ... 16.66 (+ 2.94m) EASTENDERS (TUE 1930) 13.30 ... 15.12 (+ 1.82m) EASTENDERS (FRI 2001) 12.59 ... 13.11 (+ 0.52m) EASTENDERS (THU 1930) 12.46 ... 13.92 (+ 1.46m) In other words, Den's return week averaged about 1.7m more than the previous week. Weekly officials, in millions, for week commencing 8 and 15 February, respectively (2010) EASTENDERS (MON 2001) 10.88 ... 10.88 (± 0) EASTENDERS (TUE 1929) 10.48 ... 11.34 (+ 0.86m) EASTENDERS (FRI 2001) 10.41 ... 16.41 (+ 6m) EASTENDERS (THU 1929) 10.20 ... 11.47 (+ 1.27m) Live week was, on average, up about 2m on the former, although that figure's bolstered massively by the live episode itself, which had 6m than the previous Friday. |
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#16 |
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The more I think about it the more I feel it should have been Michelle Collins who returned as Cindy instead of Kathy.
First of all it would have been more believable as she'd been in prison Secondly imagine the drama it would have caused between Ian and Jane with Cindy over Lucy death. Thirdly they could bring back Steven, Peter and Cindy Jr giving Cindy three children to interact with aswell as have fights with Ian and Jane. I soooo wish that had happened as Kathys return has been a huge let down. |
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#17 |
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Quote:
The more I think about it the more I feel it should have been Michelle Collins who returned as Cindy instead of Kathy.
First of all it would have been more believable as she'd been in prison Secondly imagine the drama it would have caused between Ian and Jane with Cindy over Lucy death. Thirdly they could bring back Steven, Peter and Cindy Jr giving Cindy three children to interact with aswell as have fights with Ian and Jane. I soooo wish that had happened as Kathys return has been a huge let down. |
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#18 |
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Whenever I think of her not being there for Ben for 10 years, I just think to myself 'well it evens things out after Phil wasn't there for Ben for the first 10 years of his life'.
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#19 |
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I think it's unlikely Michelle Collins would have ever committed to a permanent return, unlike Gillian Taylforth who jumped at the chance to come back. So I'm glad they went with Kathy.
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#20 |
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That's right. The omnibus hasn't been added to the official BARB figure since December 2001, which is why yearly averages are only available from 2002.
As for whether LIVE 2010 lured in more regular viewers, you're probably right given that average episodes of EastEnders back in 2003 were capable of attracting up to 13 million viewers, whereas the two months in the build-up to the live rated in the 9.5 to 11 million bracket, the highest they ever were under Santer's tenure. Weekly officials, in millions, for week commencing 22 and 29 September, respectively (2003) . EASTENDERS (MON 2000) 13.72 ... 16.66 (+ 2.94m) EASTENDERS (TUE 1930) 13.30 ... 15.12 (+ 1.82m) EASTENDERS (FRI 2001) 12.59 ... 13.11 (+ 0.52m) EASTENDERS (THU 1930) 12.46 ... 13.92 (+ 1.46m) In other words, Den's return week averaged about 1.7m more than the previous week. Weekly officials, in millions, for week commencing 8 and 15 February, respectively (2010) EASTENDERS (MON 2001) 10.88 ... 10.88 (± 0) EASTENDERS (TUE 1929) 10.48 ... 11.34 (+ 0.86m) EASTENDERS (FRI 2001) 10.41 ... 16.41 (+ 6m) EASTENDERS (THU 1929) 10.20 ... 11.47 (+ 1.27m) Live week was, on average, up about 2m on the former, although that figure's bolstered massively by the live episode itself, which had 6m than the previous Friday. The live ep added on more to a regular figure of its time than Den's return did, but many of those casual viewers were probably regular ones in 2003 anyway. There was the 13.9m peak for the Stax reveal before the 25th anniversary build up. Didn't Danielle's death consolidate over 11m or have I made that up? I remember there was an issue with that ep it was counted as two for some reason despite airing for one hour straight. 8m is probably the target for big episodes now and not many reach that. |
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#21 |
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Well she committed to Corrie for three years and only left as she didn't like the constant filming in Manchester and being away from her daughter in London. Eastenders would base her in London as she likes.
A return from Cindy definitely would have been dramatic, but Kathy has more long-term potential in the show. |
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#22 |
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She also left EastEnders, what, five or six times during her ten years on the show? The reason Cindy was killed off in the first place was because the actress (allegedly) gave the producers the run-around and wouldn't make up her mind about returning, despite them extending the deadline numerous times to accommodate her. In the end they just got fed up.
A return from Cindy definitely would have been dramatic, but Kathy has more long-term potential in the show. I don't care anymore why she was originally killed off as Matthew Robinson imo was a Jerk. Fact is a return from her would have made more sense. |
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#23 |
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I think EE made a mistake in killing off Den. After all the hype of his return as well. They should have written him out by Den leaving the square perhaps being sent to prison for something or him leaving the country. They could have then potentially brought Den back in the future.
I think the main reason for LG's departure was because of his antics in the dressing room so EE decided to get rid of him for good. |
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#24 |
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That's Kathy's fault again. She took Ben to another country and asked Phil to let Gavin adopt Ben. Then she had to fake her death and abandoned Ben for insurance purposes.
He did have some nice interaction with Ben after Kathy returned from SA in 1999 when he'd been sober for a while but that's about it. There was nothing to stop him visiting him in South Africa, though, once or twice a year. Even with Gavin raising Ben, I'm sure Kathy wouldn't have objected as she wasn't spiteful like that. Phil actually did go once but only the once in either 2000 or 2001, I can't remember which. Even if he didn't go he could have asked Ian for updates etc, yet he barely mentioned Ben during his time in SA. Did Gavin adopt Ben in the end? I tell you what Kathy isn't responsible for: Phil's atrocious parenting of Ben. She's responsible for Ben ending up in Phil's care but not how Phil chose to look after him which has done all kinds of damage. And Kathy couldn't have foreseen this either since Phil wasn't the bully he often is now when Kathy left in 2000. His horrible behaviour with Kathy was all drink-fuelled, before she left she saw glimpses of the tender man she'd fallen for. Now he's a pig even when he's sober which is why no one (fans or characters in the show) should use his drinking as an excuse for how he's treated Sharon when the worst of it was before he started drinking. |
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#25 |
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I voted equally bad. The return episodes for Den were good and you could buy him hiding for how ever many years it was. The reason I think bad overall is that his overall second stint was mediocre and damaged an iconic character.
Kathy return is poor. Poor storyline for a poor actress. Those folks who want to live in past and wear a pair of rose tinted spectacles it is bringing back someone iconic. In reality Gillian was never going to be able to carry this storyline which should have been about raw emotion not plot lines. It needed a Jesse Wallace to bring it to life. If folks are happy to have Kathy back as a background character in the Kaff fine but what a lot of effort and tedium to get there. |
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The live ep added on more to a regular figure of its time than Den's return did, but many of those casual viewers were probably regular ones in 2003 anyway.