Vodafone 20GB SIM-only plan for £20, also BT Mobile discount

binary · 11-02-2016, 13:08

Of course this has been mentioned lots and lots already in the end of the Three 'One Plan' thread, but I though it was worthy of flagging it up more prominently rather than just in a 95 page thread with 2361 posts and counting!

Virgin SIM-only bundles

Until 3rd March, Vodafone is offering its 20GB bundle for £20 a month (i.e. half price), with unlimited minutes and texts, also with 12 months of your chosen 'entertainment' package (Netflix/ Spotify/ NOW TV/ Sky Sports Mobile). Makes their non-special offer bundles look pretty measly by comparison!

Also until 15 Feb BT Mobile are offering £4 off their 'Ultimate SIM Deal' which also has 20GB of data with unlimited minutes and texts - so that's £16 for BT Broadband customers, £21 otherwise. (You actually only need to live in a household where there's BT Broadband, so you can have a separate account and bill - also the BT Mobile T&Cs says tethering isn't allowed, but people say it works anyhow.)

david16 · 11-02-2016, 13:34

There’s something totally wrong at three if the awful vodafone can gain many of three’s contract customers.

swb1964 · 11-02-2016, 14:55

Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile?

rewind · 11-02-2016, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by swb1964

Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile?

Full.

D_S7 · 11-02-2016, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by swb1964

Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile?

It includes full Netflix when I checked, and having another look it also looks like it's a standard NowTV offer as it's available on any device supported by NowTV.

Quote:

Buy a phone with a Red Value Bundle or a Red 4G SIM only plan
We’ll send you a text giving you a choice of entertainment packs
Follow the link in the text to activate your choice of packs or use our online tool
Download the app, or watch on a variety of devices
Register up to four devices and watch on two at the same time

http://www.vodafone.co.uk/explore/mu...owtv/index.htm

Quote:

Is the NOW TV Entertainment Pass supported on my device or operating system?
Check the NOW TV website for details.

http://support.vodafone.co.uk/Offers...ing-system.htm

M1kos · 11-02-2016, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by david16

There’s something totally wrong at three if the awful vodafone can gain many of three’s contract customers.

Nothing awful about Vodafone they have the best coverage by far where I live three and ee are hopeless

jchamier · 11-02-2016, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1kos

Nothing awful about Vodafone they have the best coverage by far where I live three and ee are hopeless

Given they are mobile networks for people who move around, Vodafone and O2 are half the networks that Three and EE are - the independent tests show that.

However Vodafone is jumping up massively; and in the last 8 to 12 months I now get 3G that works and 4G that works in my home town. Previously I could walk into town centre and get a 3G signal but no data would work.

There are problem areas on all networks of course.

tigglepig · 11-02-2016, 17:23

Does anyone know if this Vodafone 20GB deal can be shared using 'Red +' and if so then what the costs would be for additional users?

I did try their online chat but ended up getting nowhere as the agent point blank refused to give me any prices and instead wanted to sell me a new contract with a handset despite me being perfectly happy with what I have

They couldn't even tell me if this deal could be used or not with Red +. After a five minutes of going round in circles I gave up.

I guess I could call them up but I'm not convinced that would get me any further and to be perfectly honest I'd trust the combined wisdom of this forum over the agents any day!

catdogchicken · 11-02-2016, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigglepig

Does anyone know if this Vodafone 20GB deal can be shared using 'Red +' and if so then what the costs would be for additional users?

I did try their online chat but ended up getting nowhere as the agent point blank refused to give me any prices and instead wanted to sell me a new contract with a handset despite me being perfectly happy with what I have

They couldn't even tell me if this deal could be used or not with Red +. After a five minutes of going round in circles I gave up.

I guess I could call them up but I'm not convinced that would get me any further and to be perfectly honest I'd trust the combined wisdom of this forum over the agents any day!

Yes it can be shared and its £12 for another line with unlim mins/texts and to share the 20GB pool of data.

tigglepig · 11-02-2016, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by catdogchicken

Yes it can be shared and its £12 for another line with unlim mins/texts and to share the 20GB pool of data.

Thank you, now if only the agent had been able to tell me that

D_S7 · 12-02-2016, 09:57

I ordered one of these 20GB sims yesterday, I got a notification that DPD will deliver it this morning.

I can't believe Vodafone use DPD just to deliver a sim!

mupet0000 · 12-02-2016, 16:27

That's a very competitive deal from Vodafone. This is exactly what we need, competition!

I'm on BT @ £25 per month, called them because after reading this thread I saw they are offering the same package at £21 per month, after 30 minutes on the phone of them telling me it's not possible to lower my package to £21pm, they lowered my package to £21pm. So thanks OP for posting that deal!

simcard · 12-02-2016, 18:45

Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says...

12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period.

catdogchicken · 12-02-2016, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by simcard

Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says...

12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period.

I'd be very surprised if Vodafone still had a £40 sim only price by then, but I'm sure a call to retentions would secure you another 12 months at this current price or less.

shaggy_x · 12-02-2016, 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by catdogchicken

I'd be very surprised if Vodafone still had a £40 sim only price by then, but I'm sure a call to retentions would secure you another 12 months at this current price or less.

As always with deals like this they rely on people forgetting to call up ! You'd be surprised how many people either don't understand the deal fully and sign up then forget all about it

david16 · 12-02-2016, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaggy_x

As always with deals like this they rely on people forgetting to call up ! You'd be surprised how many people either don't understand the deal fully and sign up then forget all about it

And the mobile networks likewise relying on people not realising they’ve exceeded their inclusive texts, data or minutes, and so people racking up hefty overcharges.

southlad · 13-02-2016, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by simcard

Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says...

12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period.

Yes, live chat just confirmed to me that the price returns to £40 after the 12 months.

nockie3 · 13-02-2016, 11:41

Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post).
I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed.
Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday?

4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's.

So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three

binary · 13-02-2016, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by southlad

Yes, live chat just confirmed to me that the price returns to £40 after the 12 months.

This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process.

camer_000 · 13-02-2016, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by nockie3

Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post).
I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed.
Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday?

4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's.

So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three

Just make sure you're not on WiFi when trying to activate it and it should work fine.

nockie3 · 13-02-2016, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by binary

This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process.

Can confirm on 'My Vodafone' that it states a 50% discount for 12 months. I don't really see this as a problem, just call up at the end of 12 months and renegotiate...or move?

http://i68.tinypic.com/e984ft.jpg

shaggy_x · 13-02-2016, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nockie3

Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post).
I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed.
Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday?

4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's.

So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three

What? £120 top cashback ? Omg. Tempted to cancel my BT Mobile at £16 and go for this instead !

shaggy_x · 13-02-2016, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by nockie3

Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post).
I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed.
Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday?

4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's.

So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three

Just had a quick look on mobiles.co.uk and top cashback and can't see any cashback deals linked to this tariff???

southlad · 13-02-2016, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by binary

This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process.

Neither can I. Surely they should make it obvious that the offer is just for 12 months?

voodoofish · 13-02-2016, 13:57

This deal is great

I was putting off haggling with them after my contract had just ended, but I just switched to this instead. They are switching me overnight and giving me the entertainment bundle again and adding the Euro Traveller Plus to my account, which surprised me slightly - I was expecting them to claim they were for new customers only and give me a worse deal for renewing.

I did it over live chat too which was probably slower than over the phone, but definitely easier. I was thinking of switching to EE but I think at this price staying is a much easier decision. Thanks for posting binary, I probably would have missed this otherwise!

11-02-2016, 13:08	#1
binary Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 636	Vodafone 20GB SIM-only plan for £20, also BT Mobile discount Of course this has been mentioned lots and lots already in the end of the Three 'One Plan' thread, but I though it was worthy of flagging it up more prominently rather than just in a 95 page thread with 2361 posts and counting! Virgin SIM-only bundles Until 3rd March, Vodafone is offering its 20GB bundle for £20 a month (i.e. half price), with unlimited minutes and texts, also with 12 months of your chosen 'entertainment' package (Netflix/ Spotify/ NOW TV/ Sky Sports Mobile). Makes their non-special offer bundles look pretty measly by comparison! Also until 15 Feb BT Mobile are offering £4 off their 'Ultimate SIM Deal' which also has 20GB of data with unlimited minutes and texts - so that's £16 for BT Broadband customers, £21 otherwise. (You actually only need to live in a household where there's BT Broadband, so you can have a separate account and bill - also the BT Mobile T&Cs says tethering isn't allowed, but people say it works anyhow.)

11-02-2016, 13:34	#2
david16 Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Belt Posts: 12,290	There’s something totally wrong at three if the awful vodafone can gain many of three’s contract customers.

11-02-2016, 14:55	#3
swb1964 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,455	Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile?

11-02-2016, 15:28	#4
rewind Forum Member Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 2,083	Quote: Originally Posted by swb1964 Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile? Full.

11-02-2016, 15:30	#5
D_S7 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 130	Quote: Originally Posted by swb1964 Does the package include full Now TV or can you only watch it on your mobile? It includes full Netflix when I checked, and having another look it also looks like it's a standard NowTV offer as it's available on any device supported by NowTV. Quote: Buy a phone with a Red Value Bundle or a Red 4G SIM only plan We’ll send you a text giving you a choice of entertainment packs Follow the link in the text to activate your choice of packs or use our online tool Download the app, or watch on a variety of devices Register up to four devices and watch on two at the same time http://www.vodafone.co.uk/explore/mu...owtv/index.htm Quote: Is the NOW TV Entertainment Pass supported on my device or operating system? Check the NOW TV website for details. http://support.vodafone.co.uk/Offers...ing-system.htm

11-02-2016, 16:08	#6
M1kos Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 499	Quote: Originally Posted by david16 There’s something totally wrong at three if the awful vodafone can gain many of three’s contract customers. Nothing awful about Vodafone they have the best coverage by far where I live three and ee are hopeless

11-02-2016, 16:11	#7
jchamier Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: This forum Posts: 3,392	Quote: Originally Posted by M1kos Nothing awful about Vodafone they have the best coverage by far where I live three and ee are hopeless Given they are mobile networks for people who move around, Vodafone and O2 are half the networks that Three and EE are - the independent tests show that. However Vodafone is jumping up massively; and in the last 8 to 12 months I now get 3G that works and 4G that works in my home town. Previously I could walk into town centre and get a 3G signal but no data would work. There are problem areas on all networks of course.

11-02-2016, 17:23	#8
tigglepig Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 36	Does anyone know if this Vodafone 20GB deal can be shared using 'Red +' and if so then what the costs would be for additional users? I did try their online chat but ended up getting nowhere as the agent point blank refused to give me any prices and instead wanted to sell me a new contract with a handset despite me being perfectly happy with what I have They couldn't even tell me if this deal could be used or not with Red +. After a five minutes of going round in circles I gave up. I guess I could call them up but I'm not convinced that would get me any further and to be perfectly honest I'd trust the combined wisdom of this forum over the agents any day!

11-02-2016, 17:56	#9
catdogchicken Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 23	Quote: Originally Posted by tigglepig Does anyone know if this Vodafone 20GB deal can be shared using 'Red +' and if so then what the costs would be for additional users? I did try their online chat but ended up getting nowhere as the agent point blank refused to give me any prices and instead wanted to sell me a new contract with a handset despite me being perfectly happy with what I have They couldn't even tell me if this deal could be used or not with Red +. After a five minutes of going round in circles I gave up. I guess I could call them up but I'm not convinced that would get me any further and to be perfectly honest I'd trust the combined wisdom of this forum over the agents any day! Yes it can be shared and its £12 for another line with unlim mins/texts and to share the 20GB pool of data.

11-02-2016, 18:00	#10
tigglepig Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 36	Quote: Originally Posted by catdogchicken Yes it can be shared and its £12 for another line with unlim mins/texts and to share the 20GB pool of data. Thank you, now if only the agent had been able to tell me that

12-02-2016, 09:57	#11
D_S7 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 130	I ordered one of these 20GB sims yesterday, I got a notification that DPD will deliver it this morning. I can't believe Vodafone use DPD just to deliver a sim!

12-02-2016, 16:27	#12
mupet0000 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 620	That's a very competitive deal from Vodafone. This is exactly what we need, competition! I'm on BT @ £25 per month, called them because after reading this thread I saw they are offering the same package at £21 per month, after 30 minutes on the phone of them telling me it's not possible to lower my package to £21pm, they lowered my package to £21pm. So thanks OP for posting that deal!

12-02-2016, 18:45	#13
simcard Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Kent UK Posts: 24	Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says... 12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period.

12-02-2016, 19:07	#14
catdogchicken Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 23	Quote: Originally Posted by simcard Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says... 12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period. I'd be very surprised if Vodafone still had a £40 sim only price by then, but I'm sure a call to retentions would secure you another 12 months at this current price or less.

12-02-2016, 19:46	#15
shaggy_x Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Deep South (Yorkshire) Posts: 3,416	Quote: Originally Posted by catdogchicken I'd be very surprised if Vodafone still had a £40 sim only price by then, but I'm sure a call to retentions would secure you another 12 months at this current price or less. As always with deals like this they rely on people forgetting to call up ! You'd be surprised how many people either don't understand the deal fully and sign up then forget all about it

12-02-2016, 20:34	#16
david16 Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Central Belt Posts: 12,290	Quote: Originally Posted by shaggy_x As always with deals like this they rely on people forgetting to call up ! You'd be surprised how many people either don't understand the deal fully and sign up then forget all about it And the mobile networks likewise relying on people not realising they’ve exceeded their inclusive texts, data or minutes, and so people racking up hefty overcharges.

13-02-2016, 09:57	#17
southlad Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,131	Quote: Originally Posted by simcard Just had the email through from Vodafone detailing the plan after the sim arrived and the email says... 12 months half-price line rental and the finish date, the monthly line rental shows as being £40 so if you have signed up to this offer make sure you start looking for better offers near the end of the twelve month period. Yes, live chat just confirmed to me that the price returns to £40 after the 12 months.

13-02-2016, 11:41	#18
nockie3 Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,463	Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post). I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed. Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday? 4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's. So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three

13-02-2016, 11:51	#19
binary Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 636	Quote: Originally Posted by southlad Yes, live chat just confirmed to me that the price returns to £40 after the 12 months. This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process.

13-02-2016, 12:01	#20
camer_000 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 75	Quote: Originally Posted by nockie3 Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post). I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed. Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday? 4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's. So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three Just make sure you're not on WiFi when trying to activate it and it should work fine.

13-02-2016, 12:06	#21
nockie3 Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,463	Quote: Originally Posted by binary This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process. Can confirm on 'My Vodafone' that it states a 50% discount for 12 months. I don't really see this as a problem, just call up at the end of 12 months and renegotiate...or move? http://i68.tinypic.com/e984ft.jpg

DS Forums

Vodafone 20GB SIM-only plan for £20, also BT Mobile discount

13-02-2016, 13:36	#22
shaggy_x Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Deep South (Yorkshire) Posts: 3,416	Quote: Originally Posted by nockie3 Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post). I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed. Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday? 4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's. So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three What? £120 top cashback ? Omg. Tempted to cancel my BT Mobile at £16 and go for this instead !

13-02-2016, 13:39	#23
shaggy_x Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Deep South (Yorkshire) Posts: 3,416	Quote: Originally Posted by nockie3 Just a quick question (just had my new Vodafone SIM through the post). I've had a text from Vodafone saying I can register for my choice of entertainment pack. However, upon going to the website, it's asking for my mobile number to proceed. Do I register for the entertainment pack with my Vodafone assigned mobile number or do I wait for my Three number to transfer over on Tuesday? 4G speeds at my home address are comparable to Three at the moment, 27Mbps down and 21Mbps up. Albeit the Ping is substantially better at 36ms. 3G seems a little slower than Three's. So it seems that with £10 cash back from Topcashback, £120 cash back via redemption from mobiles.co.uk, and £7.49 Netflix taken into account (which we pay for separately at the moment), my 12 month contract with Vodafone is working out at around £1.70 per month. Take that Three Just had a quick look on mobiles.co.uk and top cashback and can't see any cashback deals linked to this tariff???

13-02-2016, 13:55	#24
southlad Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,131	Quote: Originally Posted by binary This is not made remotely obvious on their website - I can't see any mention that the £20 price only runs for 12 months, even when starting to go into the purchase process. Neither can I. Surely they should make it obvious that the offer is just for 12 months?

13-02-2016, 13:57	#25
voodoofish Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 95	This deal is great I was putting off haggling with them after my contract had just ended, but I just switched to this instead. They are switching me overnight and giving me the entertainment bundle again and adding the Euro Traveller Plus to my account, which surprised me slightly - I was expecting them to claim they were for new customers only and give me a worse deal for renewing. I did it over live chat too which was probably slower than over the phone, but definitely easier. I was thinking of switching to EE but I think at this price staying is a much easier decision. Thanks for posting binary, I probably would have missed this otherwise!