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Old 17-02-2016, 14:54
DaftPunk
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I'm thinking of upgrading from ADSL broadband (7.5MB) to Infinity (1 or 2) but would like to know if BT are going to be bringing out a new HomeHub in the near future?

The current one (HH5) has been out since late 2013 I believe, so it's long overdue an update.

I'd be a little miffed to upgrade, and then find out the HomeHub was being upgraded, and I'd just missed out!

Cheers,
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Old 17-02-2016, 15:00
moox
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Can't comment, but bear in mind you aren't restricted to using the Home Hub. There are plenty of very capable routers out there, for not much money (IMO more capable and reliable than the HH)
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Old 17-02-2016, 15:23
Glawster2002
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Can't comment, but bear in mind you aren't restricted to using the Home Hub. There are plenty of very capable routers out there, for not much money (IMO more capable and reliable than the HH)
To be fair, though, I've had a HH5 since mid-2014 and, so far, it has been faultless.
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:22
gomezz
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I am still on an HH3 and it does the job just fine.
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:31
DaftPunk
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I'm currently on a HH2 with ADSL and have decided that I need to upgrade my WIFI to something a little faster

I did look at buying my own AC1900 router (e.g. Netgear D7000) but for the cost of that I could spend the money on upgrading my broadband to Infinity and get a *free* AC1900 router via the HH5.

I'm pretty sure BT must be testing something new, in order to keep up with newer technology (e.g. MU-MIMO).

I've searched, but there's no mention of a HH6, anywhere!
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:36
moox
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I'm currently on a HH2 with ADSL and have decided that I need to upgrade my WIFI to something a little faster

I did look at buying my own AC1900 router (e.g. Netgear D7000) but for the cost of that I could spend the money on upgrading my broadband to Infinity and get a *free* AC1900 router via the HH5.

I'm pretty sure BT must be testing something new, in order to keep up with newer technology (e.g. MU-MIMO).

I've searched, but there's no mention of a HH6, anywhere!
BT has no reason to invest in better wifi unless it means better performance for distributing the internet connection (given that most BT users can only get 75Mbit maximum, typically less - which can be achieved with wireless N, this isn't hard to do) or unless they think they can get a competitive advantage over another provider. Sky, TalkTalk and Virgin don't push the boat out with their routers so BT has no reason to.

AFAIK the current HH does everything they need it to do, including BT TV and IPv6.

BT is not that good at keeping up with newer technology. Otherwise we'd have a "fibre optic network" that wasn't mostly copper and comprised of 10 year old technology, still being built today

To be fair, though, I've had a HH5 since mid-2014 and, so far, it has been faultless.
I guess it depends on your needs. There seems to be an ongoing issue with the HH5's VDSL modem not supporting all of the required features of BT's network, like upstream G.INP
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:40
Hurlley
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I seriously doubt they will. My view is they will wait for G.Fast to pick up pace/ roll out. Start off with separate modems (there is still a red port on the HH5) and when it really takes off make a combined router.
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:42
moox
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I seriously doubt they will. My view is they will wait for G.Fast to pick up pace/ roll out. Start off with separate modems (there is still a red port on the HH5) and when it really takes off make a combined router.
I can't see g.bodge having a combined router. It'll need a professional installation to work properly (being even more demanding of that 50 year old copper or aluminium than ever before, poundland extension cables aren't good enough), and BT has already discovered what happens when you let anyone use any modem on VDSL, with the Openreach supplied modems being the most dependable and reliable ones of the lot (and go for high prices on eBay)

There'll always be an ethernet WAN port - there are a handful of people who got the rolls-royce fibre to the premises service, and need it to connect to the Openreach FTTP equipment. If G.bodge happens, BT will continue to need it for those people, and those who take up FTTP on demand (which will supposedly be made cheaper because the fibre will be outside the house already)
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:48
DaftPunk
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Thanks for the replies.

I hadn't heard of g.fast, but have just been reading some pages on it. Seems they've been trialling a combination of routers/modems

http://arstechnica.co.uk/information...reverse-power/

Still some time off, so I guess I'll upgrade and see how good the HH5 is. If it's a disappointment, then I've always got the option of using my own access point...
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Old 17-02-2016, 16:54
moox
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Thanks for the replies.

I hadn't heard of g.fast, but have just been reading some pages on it. Seems they've been trialling a combination of routers/modems

http://arstechnica.co.uk/information...reverse-power/

Still some time off, so I guess I'll upgrade and see how good the HH5 is. If it's a disappointment, then I've always got the option of using my own access point...
Even if G.FAST happened tomorrow they wouldn't necessarily need to supply a new router. The Home Hub is also supplied to those BT customers who already have fibre to the premises (which is better than G.FAST will ever be), and can get speeds of up to 330Mbit/s today - so I'd hope the current router is man enough to handle that.

The HH already has an ethernet WAN port to connect to an external modem, or FTTP equipment, so it's futureproof in that respect
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Old 17-02-2016, 17:19
d'@ve
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I can't see g.bodge having a combined router. It'll need a professional installation to work properly (being even more demanding of that 50 year old copper or aluminium than ever before, poundland extension cables aren't good enough), and BT has already discovered what happens when you let anyone use any modem on VDSL, with the Openreach supplied modems being the most dependable and reliable ones of the lot (and go for high prices on eBay)

There'll always be an ethernet WAN port - there are a handful of people who got the rolls-royce fibre to the premises service, and need it to connect to the Openreach FTTP equipment. If G.bodge happens, BT will continue to need it for those people, and those who take up FTTP on demand (which will supposedly be made cheaper because the fibre will be outside the house already)
Well BT have already said they hope to make G.Fast a home install solution, with speeds increasing from 300Mbps to 500 Mbps, and are now working on XG.Fast for over 1Gbps based on average dp distances from homes.

There is also now an Openreach Ultrafast website... http://www.ultrafast-openreach.co.uk/

Seems to me to be a far more sensible method of making ultrafast generally available as quickly as possible and cost effectively... fibre to the dp.
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Old 17-02-2016, 17:31
moox
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Well BT have already said they hope to make G.Fast a home install solution, with speeds increasing from 300Mbps to 500 Mbps, and are now working on XG.Fast for over 1Gbps based on average dp distances from homes.

There is also now an Openreach Ultrafast website... http://www.ultrafast-openreach.co.uk/

Seems to me to be a far more sensible method of making ultrafast generally available as quickly as possible and cost effectively... fibre to the dp.
BT like to talk a good game with G.FAST because they're ideologically opposed to going for the futureproof technologies in the first place. They're basically the only telco that is doing this.

Realistically it's no quicker to deploy than FTTP would be - you still have to pull fibre to each and every DP, just as you would with FTTP itself - this is the most expensive and laborious bit.

But you then replace a simple piece of fibre and commodity equipment with tons of expensive active electronics based on an unproven standard, you don't get consistent, predictable service (it's still dependent on distance) and you still have all the lovely issues with copper that fibre does not have.

Once the fibre is in, it's in (and won't need to be touched for decades), but with G.FAST you get to maintain thousands of mini DSLAMs on every pole and underground pit, with upgrades to newer standards likely involving replacement of all of those DSLAMs. Moving to a new FTTP standard is simpler.

The fact that they're going to offer FTTP on demand alongside it makes no sense - they'd just as well just do FTTP only and charge a bit more for each installation (using economy of scale to lower costs). In the now neutered Australian plan, they were going to run fibre to each home in a street in one go, and then organise the remaining installation inside the home at the homeowner's convenience, with the aim to shut down existing services in a given area and go fibre only within 18 months.

For places with directly buried cable, or FTTB type setups G.FAST will be fine. But that isn't most homes.

You could compare the whole mess to the GPO's decision to use aluminium cables because it was cheaper than copper. Seemed absolutely fine in the 70s and a great money saver back then, but it's a bugbear for *DSL services in 2016. At least the GPO can be forgiven for not knowing about the whole internet thing.
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Old 17-02-2016, 21:19
MeanMint
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I believe BT are currently emailing trialist for the new hub. You have to part of scheme though.
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Old 17-02-2016, 21:33
Ragnarok
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BT has already discovered what happens when you let anyone use any modem on VDSL, with the Openreach supplied modems being the most dependable and reliable ones of the lot (and go for high prices on eBay)
Yes quite, it turns out BT can't even manage to get a hardware vendor ,supplying more than half the modems they manufacturing on behalf of BT BT, up to their own specifications.

FYI, ECI BT open reach modems do not have functioning G.INP support at all. They can support G.inp ( partially in 1 direction only ) with an unoffical firmware based on Openwrt with a more up to date driver, even so it's still short of BT's own specification. They also have been testing and approving other ISP's routers before allowing them to be used on the BT network.

Go figure.
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Old 17-02-2016, 21:37
moox
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Yes quite, it turns out BT can't even manage to get a hardware vendor ,supplying more than half the modems they manufacturing on behalf of BT BT, up to their own specifications.

FYI, ECI BT open reach modems do not have functioning G.INP support at all. They can support G.inp ( partially in 1 direction only ) with an unoffical firmware based on Openwrt with a more up to date driver, even so it's still short of BT's own specification. They also have been testing and approving other ISP's routers before allowing them to be used on the BT network.

Go figure.
I seem to recall that the ECI cabinets (not just the modems) can't do G.INP properly either - and it's not clarified whether they can support vectoring as BT may not have bought the correct version (which may be holding up a proper rollout, even for people on Huawei cabinets which properly support both)

I think the Home Hub's built in VDSL modem has issues too? IIRC it uses the same DSL chipset as the ECI kit (Lantiq based), whereas Broadcom is used by Huawei cabinets and modems

I anticipate similar issues, if not worse with G.FAST - since it's going to be a brand new technology, whereas VDSL2 isn't (it's about a decade old and used by numerous telcos before BT woke up and decided to upgrade from ADSL1 for the majority)

There seems to be none of these clangers on the FTTP side - the people who have it seem to have flawless service...
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Old 18-02-2016, 21:09
d'@ve
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BT like to talk a good game with G.FAST because they're ideologically opposed to going for the futureproof technologies in the first place. They're basically the only telco that is doing this.

Realistically it's no quicker to deploy than FTTP would be - you still have to pull fibre to each and every DP, just as you would with FTTP itself - this is the most expensive and laborious bit.
Don't underestimate the potential savings in being able to run all that fibre without a single home visit or appointment (and missed appointment) involvement with any householders. Followed by local mailshots and sign-ups again with no householder appointments and no further Openreach engineer involvement other than a dp switch-over. They can use the engineers who won't have to run fibre on an ad hoc basis from dp to home and install stuff, to speed up the nationwide rollout of G.FAST to dps.

Intuitively, the savings are likely to be substantial and that's probably a big part of the reason why they are going down this route.
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Old 18-02-2016, 21:38
moox
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Don't underestimate the potential savings in being able to run all that fibre without a single home visit or appointment (and missed appointment) involvement with any householders. Followed by local mailshots and sign-ups again with no householder appointments and no further Openreach engineer involvement other than a dp switch-over. They can use the engineers who won't have to run fibre on an ad hoc basis from dp to home and install stuff, to speed up the nationwide rollout of G.FAST to dps.

Intuitively, the savings are likely to be substantial and that's probably a big part of the reason why they are going down this route.
Theoretically you can do the same with FTTP - you can run fibre to the property without requiring the customer to be there (on a large scale), and arrange the final installation into the home whenever they want it. G.FAST, if it really needs a professional installation, will be similar in this regard.

I've had BT mess around with my copper phone line without needing my permission - that included large-scale reorganisation of the copper network and pole locations. I don't recall even getting a letter, though they clearly were on my property.

The people digging up the roads to run fibre to DPs won't be the people doing home installations, just as they aren't today for VDSL or FTTP. They use contractors for that, with Openreach staff handling the customer installation (or different contractors for some VDSL/PSTN work).

This is meant to be a long term investment. Running the actual fibre to the home is a long term investment, because it will not require replacement for decades. Using G.FAST to shave off a couple of quid is incredibly short sighted (and may prove to actually be more expensive in the long run), just as VDSL is proving to be today.

It's certainly far more complicated than FTTP would be, and it's holding up progress. BT could have started a proper FTTP rollout years ago, and be much further along than they'll be next year with G.FAST.

With the news that BT is trialling cheaper methods of installing FTTP into the home, perhaps they're realising the same thing...
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Old 18-02-2016, 22:06
ba_baracus
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Moox, change the record, mate.

It seems like you somehow manage to squeeze your pointless rambling about FTTP into every thread you ever post in.
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Old 18-02-2016, 22:10
moox
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Moox, change the record, mate.

It seems like you somehow manage to squeeze your pointless rambling about FTTP into every thread you ever post in.
You are, of course, totally free to avoid reading my posts, or put me on the ignore list if it offends you. I'll take advice on what not to post from the forum's rules and moderators.
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Old 18-02-2016, 22:57
littleboo
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Moox, change the record, mate.

It seems like you somehow manage to squeeze your pointless rambling about FTTP into every thread you ever post in.
+1 There cant be any of the axe left to grind
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Old 19-02-2016, 04:08
Aye Up
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I guess it depends on your needs. There seems to be an ongoing issue with the HH5's VDSL modem not supporting all of the required features of BT's network, like upstream G.INP
G.INP Working fine on both HH 5s here (Type A & Type B). Type A did have an initial problem that was later solved by an update.

At the time G.INP was launched, I was on the trials for software updates to both routers, interestingly energy usage decreased as they optimised the code.
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Old 19-02-2016, 14:37
d'@ve
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Theoretically you can do the same with FTTP - you can run fibre to the property without requiring the customer to be there (on a large scale), and arrange the final installation into the home whenever they want it. G.FAST, if it really needs a professional installation, will be similar in this regard.
For FTTP you still have to have engineers running fibre from dp to the home and then organise appointments and suffer missed appointments, unlike with G.FAST. And BT have said recently that G.FAST self-install will hopefully be doable. FTTP will cost more to roll out and will therefore be slower to roll out.

The people digging up the roads to run fibre to DPs won't be the people doing home installations, just as they aren't today for VDSL or FTTP. They use contractors for that, with Openreach staff handling the customer installation (or different contractors for some VDSL/PSTN work).
Makes no significant difference to the costs though because contractors don't come free. For any given annual budget, FTTP would take longer to roll out because it costs more to roll out.
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Old 19-02-2016, 15:21
Glawster2002
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I guess it depends on your needs. There seems to be an ongoing issue with the HH5's VDSL modem not supporting all of the required features of BT's network, like upstream G.INP
For the "average" user who just wants to connect his phone/tablet/laptop to the web so they can check emails/surf the web/ watch videos the HH5 does the job and for most people that is all they are bothered about.
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Old 19-02-2016, 18:48
Aye Up
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Makes no significant difference to the costs though because contractors don't come free. For any given annual budget, FTTP would take longer to roll out because it costs more to roll out.
He sings the same song every time, very bitter towards BT. He overlooks the fact BT is a multinational, what they are more concerned about is the return on investment. Nothing he or anyone else says is going to change BT's plans in respect of rolling out G.Fast. Even if BT was to roll out true FTTP everywhere, that would likely result in a bill well over £10bn if you believe the optimistic estimates.

That said I do think moox is correct, it would cost less money over the longterm rolling out FTTP as opposed to FTTDP, BT won't stump up the money for that, I doubt the government will either.

It is what it is, and there is nothing we can do now or in the immediate future to change that.
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Old 19-02-2016, 21:34
d'@ve
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rolling out FTTP as opposed to FTTDP, BT won't stump up the money for that, I doubt the government will either.

It is what it is, and there is nothing we can do now or in the immediate future to change that.
And therein lies the problem: Governments are needed to fund this kind of thing, as with the roads, but they won't fund the extra costs of Nationwide FTTP and that won't change any decade soon.

But I for one am grateful that G.Fast has been announced as 'the solution' and is likely to make 300Mbps available to places like mine within 5 years or so, increasing to 500 Mbps and eventually perhaps with XG.Fast to over 1Gbps. That's something to look forward to, not whinge about as one or two (not you!) seem intent on doing.
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