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Glasgow local MUX SFN Trial


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Old 20-02-2016, 12:45
Jason_McCagh
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It might be viewed as a litle undignified to have a member of a radio station's management name calling in a public forum.

No one is name calling anyone, I just think its a bit boring now going over the same ground over and over, yes there has been issues but that is not my business or anyone else,

i think it should be put to bed and move on from all the drama, there is no need to continue it any further, i just think it creates a bad vibe, these forums are meant to be light hearted and fun, to discuss stations and broadcasting in general,

i personally don't know the ins and outs of whats happening at Your Radio, and to be honest i don't really care, but is there any need for John to continue with his personal vendetta against Spencer,

I have been in a similar situation before where financial issues etc have arisen but never took it onto any of these forums to bad mouth any of the persons involved,

from what i can see Gary and Spencer are trying to sort things out at the station,

if my post came across that way then i apologize, just think we could all get play along nicely, after all we all share the same passion ... RADIO
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Old 20-02-2016, 15:19
Black Label
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It isn't my intention to pursue a vendetta. Nor get into trading personal insults.I have expressed a view, people have replied so am also happy to leave the matter. Moving the discussion onto more positive ground, if Glennifer is unsuitable, any thhoughts on an alternative site? I was thinking either the Anniesland tower Insight use or the one Sunny Govan boradcast off.
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Old 20-02-2016, 15:24
Jason_McCagh
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I agreed John, let's move on
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Old 21-02-2016, 10:25
Craig Kelly
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Moving the discussion onto more positive ground, if Glennifer is unsuitable, any thhoughts on an alternative site? I was thinking either the Anniesland tower Insight use or the one Sunny Govan boradcast off.
It is a pity about the unexpected additional fees at the Gleniffer Braes transmission tower, but that was most likely to be an expensive option. All the commercial DAB muxes and the BBC National mux all transmit with a combiner from the same tower with an erp of 1,000 Watts each mux or close to that.

More so since the DAB aerials have been fitted to the tower for the DAB trial and that is going to be another cost to the riggers to get them down.

Apart from that, another site has to be found and for ease of Ofcom clearance, probably best to use an existing broadcast radio site as suggested by BL - like Anniesland Court at Anniesland Cross, Glasgow (used by Insight 101 FM) to cover the west-end of Glasgow, Partick, Jordanhill, Kelvinside, Kevindale to Bearsden and parts of Clydebank to over the River Clyde to Govan, Renfrew etc., plus some coverage in the city centre.

There is also the 'Glasgow West Central' site used for Freeview digital TV and BBC DAB radio plus as a Step 1 infill for Bauer Glasgow DAB on the tower block at Bellshaugh Gardens, Kelvinside. This would cover an area not unlike Anniesland Court.

There is also the tower block on the Mosspark Heights from where Sunny G. on 103.5 FM transmits from. Small-scale DAB from there would improve reception in and around the Govan, Cardonald, Hillington area to include Renfrew, Braehead Shopping Centre and parts of Paisley and also improve the west end of Glasgow.

And to improve reception in the city centre and make it more robust plus coverage to the north to include Springburn and Bishopbriggs area, there is always the Glasgow Hilton Hotel rooftop in William Street and also where Celtic Music Radio transmits from on 95FM from the city centre.

The options are endless!!

But time is not on their side, getting permissions, Ofcom clearance etc., and installation with just 6 months of the licence period to go. Maybe it is just too late now unless something can be pulled 'out of the bag'!
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Old 21-02-2016, 21:16
Black Label
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I think the second transmitter on a decent tower block may be at least as good as Cathkin plus Glennifer, because it would then boulster field strength. It may mean less 'area' coverage but for a tight build city like Glasgow would increase ease of listening withing an albeit slightly smaller area. But these are engineering trials and that is just my own theory.
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Old 21-02-2016, 23:04
Gerry Mandarin
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I think the second transmitter on a decent tower block may be at least as good as Cathkin plus Glennifer, because it would then boulster field strength. It may mean less 'area' coverage but for a tight build city like Glasgow would increase ease of listening withing an albeit slightly smaller area. But these are engineering trials and that is just my own theory.
But it would also mean that a station like YOUR probably wouldn't be able to be picked up within it's own TSA, and now that they're registered with RAJAR would be a bit senseless.
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Old 22-02-2016, 10:58
Craig Kelly
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But it would also mean that a station like YOUR probably wouldn't be able to be picked up within it's own TSA, and now that they're registered with RAJAR would be a bit senseless.
YOUR Radio is a small-scale commercial radio licence for Dumbarton/Vale of Leven and Helensburgh. Outwith these areas is 'overspill' of FM reception. The Small-scale DAB is an Ofcom engineering trial for Glasgow. The two areas are separate and different.
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Old 22-02-2016, 11:11
Gerry Mandarin
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YOUR Radio is a small-scale commercial radio licence for Dumbarton/Vale of Leven and Helensburgh. Outwith these areas is 'overspill' of FM reception. The Small-scale DAB is an Ofcom engineering trial for Glasgow. The two areas are separate and different.
I'm more than aware of that so why would they want to spend money to broadcast outside of their target area.
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Old 24-02-2016, 15:09
Craig Kelly
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I'm more than aware of that so why would they want to spend money to broadcast outside of their target area.
I think what you may find it was to enhance the universal coverage area of YOUR Radio to include parts of Glasgow on DAB digital radio.

The selling point would have been on FM in the licence areas of Dumbarton and Helensburgh with unavoidable overspill into Inverclyde/Greenock on FM plus also available on DAB around Glasgow. Editorially, the station would still major on its FM area.

Ofcom were also keen for a small-scale local commercial radio station to be part of the trial mux service offering and YOUR Radio is the only station now available for that purpose.
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Old 25-02-2016, 04:01
Black Label
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Actually, I've had a brainwave. Pulse 98.4 are part of these trials and home some of the equipment. They currently tramsmit on FM from their St Lukes school home high up in Barrhead and the signal has great 'line of sight' across the West of Glasgow, similar to Glenniffer.

Why not just run TX 2 directly from there instead?
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Old 25-02-2016, 11:31
Craig Kelly
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BL, good point; well made!

Probably no planning permission required if the small DAB transmit antenna can be mounted on the same pole as the 98.4 FM folded dipole aerial and the school and education dept., give permission or use the Pulse building and mount the DAB transmit aerial on top of a tall pole on the roof of that small building. Don't know if Ofcom would want to clear the site for DAB being relatively close to Gleniffer Braes.

Coverage would be extended to parts of south Glasgow currently not receiving the mux from Cathkin (Whitlawburn). Unfortunately, due to the topography of the Gleniffer Braes, Paisley town area is 'hidden' from Auchenback, Barrhead. But on the plus side, there may be improvements to the west of Glasgow.

At this very late stage, it would certainly be better than no coverage at all if the connectivity of all services to the mux transmitter can be fixed.
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Old 02-03-2016, 01:57
DiandalScotland
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Fiddling about my dab tonight driving through Glasgow and found < Radio Caroline > on the
Glasgow Trial Mux.
Was silent at the time, but guessing yet another station to start.

Maybe that will beat Go also to starting lol

Also off topic, i see Rocksport has vanished from dab but still online
http://www.rocksportradio.co.uk/wordpress/
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:47
Craig Kelly
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Fiddling about my dab tonight driving through Glasgow and found < Radio Caroline > on the
Glasgow Trial Mux. Was silent at the time, but guessing yet another station to start. Also off topic, i see Rocksport has vanished from dab but still online
http://www.rocksportradio.co.uk/wordpress/
Radio Caroline is a webcaster online service that has been running for many years since the demise of the offshore broadcasts from the mv Ross Revenge in the North Sea in 1990. The organisation tries to keep the spirit of the historic offshore 'pirate' Radio Caroline going together with the Ross Revenge Supporters Group, the last ship used by Caroline on 963/558/819AM in the North Sea.

As part of the Small-scale DAB trials Caroline is on Aldershot/Woking, Norwich and Portsmouth muxes. http://www.radiocaroline.co.uk

Your off topic post is correct, RockSport ceased transmission on the Central Scotland Regional mux at midnight on Sunday night, 28 February and has effectively closed. Obviously, the financial backers withdrew their funding. An online presence is being maintained in the meantime in the hope that RockSport can return. Station launched as Eklipse Sports Radio in May 2014 and was bought from the original owner in November 2014 and rebranded as RockSport in January 2015 and closed at the end of February 2016.
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Old 12-03-2016, 17:12
Craig Kelly
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This past week has seen the Glasgow trial DAB 'mini-mix' beset with technical faults with all services/stations on the mux being affected.

Seems like the transmitter is continually 'tripping' (as in the analogue term). At the start of the week, the silence followed by the transmitter going off-air with the 'No Signal' message flickering for a few seconds. Now it is continuous.

At the moment, there is silence and transmitter tripping/No Signal around 7 times in 60 seconds. Each silence average is 5 seconds ranging from 3-10 seconds. Audio quality is also particularly poor on most services.

Obviously nobody is listening otherwise it would have been fixed!
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Old 15-03-2016, 15:13
larochelle
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Radio Caroline is indeed now on DAB in Glasgow, the Caroline website has been updated...

We are pleased to say that as of now Radio Caroline can be heard across Glasgow, fourth largest City in the UK with 1.2 million residents and home to over 40% of the Scottish population.

This is not to forget our present DAB outlets in Aldershot/Woking, Norwich and Portsmouth. We can also announce that these trial services, which may have ended in May are now extended at least to the middle of 2018.

For Glasgow we have to thank one Spencer Pryor of the company Scrimshaws. Spencer says his role is of the chief tea maker, though we think he is a little more senior than that.

So, where next. Who knows?
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Old 15-03-2016, 20:41
oscar1
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]So, where next. Who knows?

Indeed .brilliant news and yes who knows where next !!
Regards
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Old 15-03-2016, 20:45
Radiogram
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We are pleased to say that as of now Radio Caroline can be heard across Glasgow, fourth largest City in the UK with 1.2 million residents and home to over 40% of the Scottish population.

40% of 5.3 million is 1.2 million? Radio Caroline may need to look at those numbers again.
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:20
Black Label
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For Glasgow we have to thank one Spencer Pryor of the company Scrimshaws. Spencer says his role is of the chief tea maker, though we think he is a little more senior than that.
He wears a number of hats these days.
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Old 15-03-2016, 22:04
Vectorsum
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...We are pleased to say that as of now Radio Caroline can be heard across Glasgow, fourth largest City in the UK with 1.2 million residents and home to over 40% of the Scottish population...
The City of Glasgow has a population of almost exactly 600,000, representing around 11% of Scotland's 5.3 million population. Greater Glasgow, historically slightly smaller than the overall travel-to-work area of "Glasgow", is about 1.2 million, or about 23% of Scotland's population. Overall, the Clyde Valley conurbation is about 2.3 million, or about 43% of the Scottish population (thanks, Wikipedia). However this extends at least from Dumbarton in the west to about Hamilton/Motherwell in the east. If the Glesgie minimux covers this far then I'd suggest someone's been tampering with the PA when Ofcom wasn't looking.
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Old 16-03-2016, 10:39
Craig Kelly
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The City of Glasgow has a population of almost exactly 600,000, representing around 11% of Scotland's 5.3 million population. Greater Glasgow, historically slightly smaller than the overall travel-to-work area of "Glasgow", is about 1.2 million, or about 23% of Scotland's population.
Thanks Vectorsum for the Glasgow population stats.

It does seem as if Ofcom measures DAB digital radio coverage in households and within the Glasgow Local Commercial radio mux on Block 11C (Bauer Glasgow), once all the infill transmitters are on-air, the final plan coverage will be 1,036,961 households of which, some 38.8% of households has a DAB digital radio receiver device according to Ofcom 2015 annual market report. We have to assume that is now around 40% of households.

Therefore, around 414,784 of households in the Glasgow Local DAB commercial area (Bauer Glasgow) have a DAB digital radio. That is the total DAB digital radio households or around 871,046 listening potential audience at the moment within the Bauer Glasgow area.

The Ofcom Small-scale DAB trials can cover up to a maximum of 40% of the existing local commercial radio mux (Bauer Glasgow), [Ofcom: "trial coverage areas should be no greater than 40% of the area served by any local DAB multiplex serving the same area"] the Glasgow 'mini-mux' could reach around a maximum of 165,913 of households with a DAB radio currently or a population of around 348,417 based on 2.1 persons per household or ramp it up to x3 per household, population would be 497,739.

Due to the current single transmitter being used for the Glasgow 'mini-mux' with various coverage restrictions, it may be reaching half of that.
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Old 16-03-2016, 14:57
Vectorsum
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Thanks Vectorsum for the Glasgow population stats.
No charge.

...The Ofcom Small-scale DAB trials can cover up to a maximum of 40% of the existing local commercial radio mux (Bauer Glasgow), [Ofcom: "trial coverage areas should be no greater than 40% of the area served by any local DAB multiplex serving the same area"] the Glasgow 'mini-mux' could reach around a maximum of 165,913 of households with a DAB radio currently or a population of around 348,417 based on 2.1 persons per household or ramp it up to x3 per household, population would be 497,739...
Here's Ofcom's latest and greatest take on the geographical extent of the Glasgow local mux. 40% of the area of that could easily swallow all of Greater Glasgow with plenty of space left for a few tattie fields. So no need to worry about assuming that households are evenly distributed around the coverage area, or whether there are 2.1 peeps per house or three. I already pointed out this disconnect in logic in one of the precursor threads to this one, last year.

In any case the original purpose in posting was to point out that Radio Caroline wasn't being received by "40% of the Scottish population". On the flea-power assigned to the minimuxes, it's probably nearer 4%.
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Old 17-03-2016, 09:15
Craig Kelly
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I already pointed out this disconnect in logic in one of the precursor threads to this one, last year. In any case the original purpose in posting was to point out that Radio Caroline wasn't being received by "40% of the Scottish population". On the flea-power assigned to the minimuxes, it's probably nearer 4%.
The Ofcom rule "...trial coverage areas should be no greater than 40% of the area served by any local DAB multiplex serving the same area..." as you correctly point out is open interpretation. Assuming it is land mass coverage, then, yes, the 'Greater Glasgow' area could be covered without any great issue, but the transmitter sites would have to chosen carefully.

For a full-time Small-scale DAB licence for 'Glasgow' I would have thought it would be Glasgow Hilton Hotel (William Street) at 300 Watts ERP and Anniesland Court block perhaps at 500W.

But under trial licence conditions, it is just 100W from the Whitlawburn block of flats at Cambuslang which provides rather restricted coverage in parts of Glasgow with a bias towards the east end of Glasgow and into Lanarkshire to include Motherwell. It does sound as if this is as good as it gets.
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Old 20-03-2016, 00:17
scotorca
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The City of Glasgow has a population of almost exactly 600,000, representing around 11% of Scotland's 5.3 million population. Greater Glasgow, historically slightly smaller than the overall travel-to-work area of "Glasgow", is about 1.2 million, or about 23% of Scotland's population. Overall, the Clyde Valley conurbation is about 2.3 million, or about 43% of the Scottish population (thanks, Wikipedia). However this extends at least from Dumbarton in the west to about Hamilton/Motherwell in the east. If the Glesgie minimux covers this far then I'd suggest someone's been tampering with the PA when Ofcom wasn't looking.
The Glasgow DAB coverage map, includes most of Cowal. Unfortunately Caroline does not appear to be available in Cowal, yet literally dozens of other stations are. Am I missing something here?
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Old 20-03-2016, 08:03
hanssolo
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Don't think Ofcom have published any coverage maps for the trial minimuxes?
The Ofcom rule "...trial coverage areas should be no greater than 40% of the area served by any local DAB multiplex serving the same area..." as you correctly point out is open interpretation. Assuming it is land mass coverage, then, yes, the 'Greater Glasgow' area could be covered without any great issue, but the transmitter sites would have to chosen carefully.

For a full-time Small-scale DAB licence for 'Glasgow' I would have thought it would be Glasgow Hilton Hotel (William Street) at 300 Watts ERP and Anniesland Court block perhaps at 500W.

But under trial licence conditions, it is just 100W from the Whitlawburn block of flats at Cambuslang which provides rather restricted coverage in parts of Glasgow with a bias towards the east end of Glasgow and into Lanarkshire to include Motherwell. It does sound as if this is as good as it gets.
As Ofcom are supplying the kit looks like it is restricted to 100w transmitters, but these are possible 2nd sites for the SFN trail if the owners of the Gleniffer Braes and Sergeant Law masts insist on £10k for a landline STL rather than a temporary microwave STL? (another extra cost perhaps for the bidder of 96.3?)
from
http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/radio-...lex-licensing/
We will now continue to monitor the trial multiplexes as the trial progresses, with a view to submitting a final report to Government in the autumn.
It's possible the final report might suggest minimux operators will be able to have their own transmitters with higher powers if there is no interference with other services, but might be a long wait till the report gets published
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Old 20-03-2016, 11:45
scotorca
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Ah, didn't realise that this was a separate "minimux" trial, which appears to be different from the normal Glasgow DAB. Is this correct?
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