Vinyl via Bluetooth

KOP1975 · 25-02-2016, 14:11

Hi

Does anyone know if these are any good? Also just wanted to know if you'd lose that vinyl quality by streaming over Bluetooth.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ION-Audio-Ai...ooth+turntable

thanks

chrisjr · 25-02-2016, 14:45

Personally I would not touch it with a barge pole. It would probably be OK if all you wanted to do was make some sort of noise from vinyl records but it is by no means a bit of HiFi kit.

I see from the ION website that it uses a ceramic cartridge. Even when I started out getting interested in HiFi back in the early 1970s ceramic was regarded as the lowest of the low and anyone serious about listening to music used a magnetic cartridge. I am surprised anyone still uses ceramic frankly. Doesn't really shout "high quality" to me anyway.

KOP1975 · 25-02-2016, 15:01

Thanks for info

Nigel Goodwin · 25-02-2016, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisjr

Even when I started out getting interested in HiFi back in the early 1970s ceramic was regarded as the lowest of the low and anyone serious about listening to music used a magnetic cartridge. I am surprised anyone still uses ceramic frankly.

Not really true - crystal was lower quality than ceramic (so it wasn't the 'lowest of the low'), and a decent ceramic cartridge sounded considerably better than a cheap magnetic one as well.

Most of the problems with ceramic cartridges were down to feeding them into too low an impedance - use a proper ceramic input, and they sound really good.

We always used ceramic cartridges for disco's - magnetic were too expensive, and too fragile.

However, not that I'm not agreeing that the device in question is a fairly crappy piece of kit

I'm also somewhat dubious about worries of 'losing vinyl quality' - it's already considerably poorer than CD, even on the best quality gear

KOP1975 · 25-02-2016, 16:32

IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP

anthony david · 25-02-2016, 17:03

Most of these cheap turntables have very high playing weights by modern standards, one review measured the popular Crosley Cruiser at 7 gram. Not something to put your precious discs on.

I haven't seen ceramic or crystal cartridges in years, surprised they are still made.

Winston_1 · 25-02-2016, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOP1975

IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP

What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound?

I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range.

Deacon1972 · 25-02-2016, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston_1

What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound?

I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range.

The OP's description was 'crackles', which are regarded as positive by listeners, so much so they have been intentionally introduced on digital recordings to evoke a sense of vintage vinyl.

It's not a question of quality, that's subjective and only in the ear of the beholder, it's a question of what is more pleasing to listen too, for me that is vinyl, it has a certain warmth to it - digital has its place but it can sound clinical.

bobcar · 25-02-2016, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOP1975

IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP

How do you know that's how the artist wanted it to sound? Some may say this but for the majority it's just a different method of providing the sound.

The big difference with vinyl and the main reason why so many like it is the even harmonic distortion it introduces that they find pleasant, valve amps also add this. Also they like having a large disc and all that entails especially for the older and the memory that brings.

bobcar · 25-02-2016, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

It's not a question of quality, that's subjective and only in the ear of the beholder, it's a question of what is more pleasing to listen too, for me that is vinyl, it has a certain warmth to it - digital has its place but it can sound clinical.

It's not surprising digital sounds clinical because it is, it faithfully reproduces the recording (CD and high bit rate MP3 at least) in a way that vinyl cannot ever hope to achieve. I've often thought there should be a switch on amps to add the same distortion that vinyl does - that would be simple with modern technology.

Chris Frost · 25-02-2016, 22:40

Debating the merits or otherwise of vinyl is one thing, but in the context of an Ion TT that then converts the audio to Bluetooth!?!... Come on guys, get some perspective here. This is akin to debating the quality of grass eaten by the cows now minced up in a Big Mac.

For the OP... whether the Ion TT converts the sound to BT and loses something in the process is almost irrelevant. It already lost a load of the quality just dragging the stylus round in the groove.

Glawster2002 · 03-03-2016, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston_1

What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound?

I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range.

If vinyl is looked after properly it doesn't sound scratchy. Lack of dynamic range equally applies to CD, especially if they are badly produced, deliberately or otherwise.

anthony david · 03-03-2016, 12:28

There are a vast number of reasons why vinyl sounds different to digital reproduction in ways that some may prefer, however I don't think they apply to the ION turntable range, certainly not via Bluetooth. All the master material used to make vinyl these days is digital of course but mainly 24 bit with 96 kHz, or higher, sampling.

Chris Frost · 04-03-2016, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony david

There are a vast number of reasons why vinyl sounds different to digital reproduction in ways that some may prefer, however I don't think they apply to the ION turntable range, certainly not via Bluetooth. All the master material used to make vinyl these days is digital of course but mainly 24 bit with 96 kHz, or higher, sampling.

What you've written doesn't really make much sense. What a piece of vinyl is played on doesn't change its intrinsic nature. If anything then I'd say that the two elements are mutually exclusive: The record is always the record, but how well a turntable transcribes that sound is a separate issue.

I'm also a bit puzzled about what you're trying to say about digital mastering vis-à-vis vinyl production. Of course most (but not all) masters are digital. That's a natural consequence of the developments in the recording industry that has three decades-worth of CD production to cope with. What we have now is pretty-much the inverse of the situation in the '80's when CD first appeared. At that time there was a predominance of technical knowledge in the analogue world but mastering for CD required new techniques. The early results were some pretty lousy-sounding CDs because the medium wasn't that well understood. Now we a situation where there's a generation of engineers who have no experience at all mastering for vinyl. It might even be true to say that the record companies don't or won't pay for individual masters to be produced for vinyl as well as CD; they just use the same master as for CD and simply apply filters and level control to the vinyl lacquer cutting stage. Again there are exceptions and there are studios recording in analogue and producing masters specifically for vinyl and of course pressing plants that use virgin vinyl and at heavy weights for their pressings. It's true to say then that just as there are good and bad examples of CD as a recording medium then that's also true of vinyl today.

anthony david · 04-03-2016, 11:41

Some people prefer the sound of vinyl for reasons that are not always obvious. All speakers have an increased in distortion at low levels due to the stiffness of the suspension (Sound On Sound magazine used to show distortion graphs for monitor speakers so that studios were aware of potential problems, not sue if they still do), there is a theory that vinyl rumble effectively produces a bias that removes this. The reason being that there is a hysteresis effect, as with magnetic tape, that the rumble overcomes, provided that you don't mind listening to rumble of course. Threads like this always end up with people criticising digital recording, it is important to remember that the faults they complain about no longer are audible on studio masters. Cheap turntables are just a source of rumble and distortion, plus the playing weight will soon produce surface noise and further distortion. Add in basic low bit rate Bluetooth and the whole exercise of going vinyl at over £20 per disc for a current release, which is probably under £10 on CD, is pointless. People talk about the purity of vinyl, although they may have a point if we are talking about very expensive turntables and audiophile pressings, the one the o/p is suggesting does not meet that criteria. Personally I think an mp3 download would sound better than this turntable especially via bluetooth.

25-02-2016, 14:11	#1
KOP1975 Forum Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Romford Posts: 849	Vinyl via Bluetooth Hi Does anyone know if these are any good? Also just wanted to know if you'd lose that vinyl quality by streaming over Bluetooth. http://www.amazon.co.uk/ION-Audio-Ai...ooth+turntable thanks

25-02-2016, 14:45	#2
chrisjr Forum Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Reading Posts: 27,916	Personally I would not touch it with a barge pole. It would probably be OK if all you wanted to do was make some sort of noise from vinyl records but it is by no means a bit of HiFi kit. I see from the ION website that it uses a ceramic cartridge. Even when I started out getting interested in HiFi back in the early 1970s ceramic was regarded as the lowest of the low and anyone serious about listening to music used a magnetic cartridge. I am surprised anyone still uses ceramic frankly. Doesn't really shout "high quality" to me anyway.

25-02-2016, 15:01	#3
KOP1975 Forum Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Romford Posts: 849	Thanks for info

25-02-2016, 15:10	#4
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by chrisjr Even when I started out getting interested in HiFi back in the early 1970s ceramic was regarded as the lowest of the low and anyone serious about listening to music used a magnetic cartridge. I am surprised anyone still uses ceramic frankly. Not really true - crystal was lower quality than ceramic (so it wasn't the 'lowest of the low'), and a decent ceramic cartridge sounded considerably better than a cheap magnetic one as well. Most of the problems with ceramic cartridges were down to feeding them into too low an impedance - use a proper ceramic input, and they sound really good. We always used ceramic cartridges for disco's - magnetic were too expensive, and too fragile. However, not that I'm not agreeing that the device in question is a fairly crappy piece of kit I'm also somewhat dubious about worries of 'losing vinyl quality' - it's already considerably poorer than CD, even on the best quality gear

25-02-2016, 16:32	#5
KOP1975 Forum Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Romford Posts: 849	IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP

25-02-2016, 17:03	#6
anthony david Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 3,469	Most of these cheap turntables have very high playing weights by modern standards, one review measured the popular Crosley Cruiser at 7 gram. Not something to put your precious discs on. I haven't seen ceramic or crystal cartridges in years, surprised they are still made.

25-02-2016, 21:41	#7
Winston_1 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,008	Quote: Originally Posted by KOP1975 IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound? I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range.

25-02-2016, 22:11	#8
Deacon1972 Guest Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 8,103	Quote: Originally Posted by Winston_1 What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound? I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range. The OP's description was 'crackles', which are regarded as positive by listeners, so much so they have been intentionally introduced on digital recordings to evoke a sense of vintage vinyl. It's not a question of quality, that's subjective and only in the ear of the beholder, it's a question of what is more pleasing to listen too, for me that is vinyl, it has a certain warmth to it - digital has its place but it can sound clinical.

25-02-2016, 22:19	#9
bobcar Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 14,718	Quote: Originally Posted by KOP1975 IMO Vinyl has always sounded better. More depth. Its not about crystal clear sound its about sounding how the artist wanted it to sound. Plus I love the crackles on the LP How do you know that's how the artist wanted it to sound? Some may say this but for the majority it's just a different method of providing the sound. The big difference with vinyl and the main reason why so many like it is the even harmonic distortion it introduces that they find pleasant, valve amps also add this. Also they like having a large disc and all that entails especially for the older and the memory that brings.

25-02-2016, 22:23	#10
bobcar Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 14,718	Quote: Originally Posted by Deacon1972 It's not a question of quality, that's subjective and only in the ear of the beholder, it's a question of what is more pleasing to listen too, for me that is vinyl, it has a certain warmth to it - digital has its place but it can sound clinical. It's not surprising digital sounds clinical because it is, it faithfully reproduces the recording (CD and high bit rate MP3 at least) in a way that vinyl cannot ever hope to achieve. I've often thought there should be a switch on amps to add the same distortion that vinyl does - that would be simple with modern technology.

25-02-2016, 22:40	#11
Chris Frost Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cheshire Posts: 6,462	Debating the merits or otherwise of vinyl is one thing, but in the context of an Ion TT that then converts the audio to Bluetooth!?!... Come on guys, get some perspective here. This is akin to debating the quality of grass eaten by the cows now minced up in a Big Mac. For the OP... whether the Ion TT converts the sound to BT and loses something in the process is almost irrelevant. It already lost a load of the quality just dragging the stylus round in the groove.

03-03-2016, 10:00	#12
Glawster2002 Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire Posts: 10,404	Quote: Originally Posted by Winston_1 What does "more depth" mean in relation to sound? I don't think the artist wanted to sound scratchy and lacking in dynamic range. If vinyl is looked after properly it doesn't sound scratchy. Lack of dynamic range equally applies to CD, especially if they are badly produced, deliberately or otherwise.

03-03-2016, 12:28	#13
anthony david Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 3,469	There are a vast number of reasons why vinyl sounds different to digital reproduction in ways that some may prefer, however I don't think they apply to the ION turntable range, certainly not via Bluetooth. All the master material used to make vinyl these days is digital of course but mainly 24 bit with 96 kHz, or higher, sampling.

04-03-2016, 07:56	#14
Chris Frost Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cheshire Posts: 6,462	Quote: Originally Posted by anthony david There are a vast number of reasons why vinyl sounds different to digital reproduction in ways that some may prefer, however I don't think they apply to the ION turntable range, certainly not via Bluetooth. All the master material used to make vinyl these days is digital of course but mainly 24 bit with 96 kHz, or higher, sampling. What you've written doesn't really make much sense. What a piece of vinyl is played on doesn't change its intrinsic nature. If anything then I'd say that the two elements are mutually exclusive: The record is always the record, but how well a turntable transcribes that sound is a separate issue. I'm also a bit puzzled about what you're trying to say about digital mastering vis-à-vis vinyl production. Of course most (but not all) masters are digital. That's a natural consequence of the developments in the recording industry that has three decades-worth of CD production to cope with. What we have now is pretty-much the inverse of the situation in the '80's when CD first appeared. At that time there was a predominance of technical knowledge in the analogue world but mastering for CD required new techniques. The early results were some pretty lousy-sounding CDs because the medium wasn't that well understood. Now we a situation where there's a generation of engineers who have no experience at all mastering for vinyl. It might even be true to say that the record companies don't or won't pay for individual masters to be produced for vinyl as well as CD; they just use the same master as for CD and simply apply filters and level control to the vinyl lacquer cutting stage. Again there are exceptions and there are studios recording in analogue and producing masters specifically for vinyl and of course pressing plants that use virgin vinyl and at heavy weights for their pressings. It's true to say then that just as there are good and bad examples of CD as a recording medium then that's also true of vinyl today.

04-03-2016, 11:41	#15
anthony david Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 3,469	Some people prefer the sound of vinyl for reasons that are not always obvious. All speakers have an increased in distortion at low levels due to the stiffness of the suspension (Sound On Sound magazine used to show distortion graphs for monitor speakers so that studios were aware of potential problems, not sue if they still do), there is a theory that vinyl rumble effectively produces a bias that removes this. The reason being that there is a hysteresis effect, as with magnetic tape, that the rumble overcomes, provided that you don't mind listening to rumble of course. Threads like this always end up with people criticising digital recording, it is important to remember that the faults they complain about no longer are audible on studio masters. Cheap turntables are just a source of rumble and distortion, plus the playing weight will soon produce surface noise and further distortion. Add in basic low bit rate Bluetooth and the whole exercise of going vinyl at over £20 per disc for a current release, which is probably under £10 on CD, is pointless. People talk about the purity of vinyl, although they may have a point if we are talking about very expensive turntables and audiophile pressings, the one the o/p is suggesting does not meet that criteria. Personally I think an mp3 download would sound better than this turntable especially via bluetooth.

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Vinyl via Bluetooth