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Old 29-02-2016, 10:58
Westy2
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Is anyone re-evaluating the surviving 60's episodes now that we are seeing them nearly as they were transmitted originally with Vt interiors & filmed exteriors, rather than the ratty old fim prints we've watched for years since?

Rewatching The Mind Robber does show up how bad the Tardis interior set had got by that point, with its photographic blow up walls.
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Old 29-02-2016, 16:45
GDK
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As far as I know no restoration work is being done at the moment and the team that were involved have gone on to other projects.

I was impressed recently by the PQ of The War Games and Web of Fear.

I'm not sure when Doctor Who started to be made in 625 line b&w, but I believe the early William Hartnell stories were made in 405 line video.

I think what we have now is the best PQ we're going to get for the foreseeable. Even if technically there's restoration work that could be done, I doubt the work could be justified on commercial grounds.
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Old 29-02-2016, 16:58
lotrjw
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As far as I know no restoration work is being done at the moment and the team that were involved have gone on to other projects.

I was impressed recently by the PQ of The War Games and Web of Fear.

I'm not sure when Doctor Who started to be made in 625 line b&w, but I believe the early William Hartnell stories were made in 405 line video.

I think what we have now is the best PQ we're going to get for the foreseeable. Even if technically there's restoration work that could be done, I doubt the work could be justified on commercial grounds.
Enemy of the World, according to Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_of_the_World
I know thats not the best source, but its very likely right.
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Old 29-02-2016, 18:12
Dave-H
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Yes that is correct IIRC.
As the black and white episodes of DW weren't made for showing on BBC2, which was the only 625 line channel until BBC1 and ITV went colour at the end of 1969, I suspect that the ones that were fortuitously made in 625 lines were only made that way because they happened to be recorded in a 625 line studio due to availability!
The tapes would have been converted to 405 lines for BBC1 transmission, probably live through a converter rather than making a 405 tape copy.
The film recordings for overseas sales were made from the 625 tapes thank goodness, resulting in much better quality than the ones originated from 405 tapes.
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Old 29-02-2016, 19:38
GDK
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Enemy of the World, according to Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_of_the_World
I know thats not the best source, but its very likely right.
There's no restoration currently underway though (again, as far as I know, happy to be contradicted), and the relative success of that release was probably because it was newly recovered and hadn't been seen in its complete form for many years. A fresh discovery is always going to generate some excitement - amongst fans at least - but I think the OP was wondering about revisiting some of the earlier releases we already have and restoring them to a higher quality than we have right now.
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Old 29-02-2016, 20:23
POTD
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The improvement from 405 to 625 is really notable, the 405s look like a long lost era, while the B&W 625s are crisp and clear.
With all the excitement about upgrading from SD to HD, and then to 4K, 405 to 625 was just as much of a leap forward
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Old 29-02-2016, 21:37
Sambda
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Yes that is correct IIRC.
As the black and white episodes of DW weren't made for showing on BBC2, which was the only 625 line channel until BBC1 and ITV went colour at the end of 1969, I suspect that the ones that were fortuitously made in 625 lines were only made that way because they happened to be recorded in a 625 line studio due to availability!
The tapes would have been converted to 405 lines for BBC1 transmission, probably live through a converter rather than making a 405 tape copy.
The film recordings for overseas sales were made from the 625 tapes thank goodness, resulting in much better quality than the ones originated from 405 tapes.
No, there's a distinct change from 405 to 625 with episode 3 of "Enemy of the World" (VTR: 16/12/67) and they never did a 405-line one afterwards. There is some evidence that the eps film-recorded live from the studio for editing on film were done with 625 cameras to keep the definition up (e.g. "Dalek Invasion of Earth" ep 5 in Oct 1964) even before the general changeover.
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Old 29-02-2016, 23:19
GDK
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Enemy of the World, according to Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_of_the_World
I know thats not the best source, but its very likely right.
Sorry, lotrjw, I completely misunderstood your reply! I now realise you were responding to my uncertainty about when 625 line came in for DW.
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Old 01-03-2016, 00:23
Dave-H
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No, there's a distinct change from 405 to 625 with episode 3 of "Enemy of the World" (VTR: 16/12/67) and they never did a 405-line one afterwards. There is some evidence that the eps film-recorded live from the studio for editing on film were done with 625 cameras to keep the definition up (e.g. "Dalek Invasion of Earth" ep 5 in Oct 1964) even before the general changeover.
I think the reasons for switching when they did are lost in the mists of time, but if it was a policy decision it would be very strange to have done it part way through a story!
It would certainly have made sense for stories due to be edited on film (probably because they didn't have much studio content) to have the studio done in 625 for that reason.
I remember hearing many years ago that ABC TV at Teddington Studios had an 819 line (French standard) studio specifically for film recording, which must have been very good indeed if it's true!
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Old 01-03-2016, 00:39
Boz_Lowdownl
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I think the reasons for switching when they did are lost in the mists of time, but if it was a policy decision it would be very strange to have done it part way through a story!
It would certainly have made sense for stories due to be edited on film (probably because they didn't have much studio content) to have the studio done in 625 for that reason.
I remember hearing many years ago that ABC TV at Teddington Studios had an 819 line (French standard) studio specifically for film recording, which must have been very good indeed if it's true!
I don't think the BBC would have cared that it was half way through a story, Dr Who was a continuous production for most of the year, each episode to be shown once and never again, so when they made the change didn't really matter.
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Old 01-03-2016, 12:53
GDK
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No, there's a distinct change from 405 to 625 with episode 3 of "Enemy of the World" (VTR: 16/12/67) and they never did a 405-line one afterwards. There is some evidence that the eps film-recorded live from the studio for editing on film were done with 625 cameras to keep the definition up (e.g. "Dalek Invasion of Earth" ep 5 in Oct 1964) even before the general changeover.
BIB: According to the wiki article lotrjw referenced, the belief that 625 line came in for Doctor Who at that third episode is mistaken and due to a documentation error.

Due to British television's shift from 405-line technology to 625-line, in preparation for colour transmissions, going into effect for all BBC shows from 1 January 1968, it was long believed that the switch-over for Doctor Who from 405 lines to 625 came as of Episode 3 of this serial; however, upon the recovery of the other five episodes of the serial, it was discovered that Episodes 1 and 2 were too high-quality to be 405-line broadcasts, and so therefore must have been made at 625 lines prior to the official switchover. The now-disproved notion of the switch-over occurring at Episode 3 was most likely due to an error in documentation.
I don't have the serial in question, so I don't know which is true.

P.S. It may be there's a jump in quality at episode 3, but 1 and 2 aren't poor enough to have been 405 line originally.
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:05
GDK
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The improvement from 405 to 625 is really notable, the 405s look like a long lost era, while the B&W 625s are crisp and clear.
With all the excitement about upgrading from SD to HD, and then to 4K, 405 to 625 was just as much of a leap forward
I feel a bit sorry for TV viewers in France. They actually had an 819 line b&w system and had to go backwards to bring in colour at 625 lines.

Anyway, roll on 4K!
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Old 01-03-2016, 14:06
Dave-H
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BIB: According to the wiki article lotrjw referenced, the belief that 625 line came in for Doctor Who at that third episode is mistaken and due to a documentation error.
P.S. It may be there's a jump in quality at episode 3, but 1 and 2 aren't poor enough to have been 405 line originally.
Looking at that article again, I'm a bit puzzled why there should be any doubt.
The recording numbers allocated to film (and videotape) recordings by the BBC should clearly state whether they are 405 or 625, as the first digit should be 4 or 6 respectively.
If The Enemy of the World was indeed all recorded 625 that would certainly make more sense than switching standards part way through a story!
Although I don't disagree with what Boz_Lowdownl said earlier, it would have been very "un-BBC" to do that, and I should know, I worked there for nearly 40 years!
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Old 01-03-2016, 19:23
Sambda
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Looking at that article again, I'm a bit puzzled why there should be any doubt.
The recording numbers allocated to film (and videotape) recordings by the BBC should clearly state whether they are 405 or 625, as the first digit should be 4 or 6 respectively.
If The Enemy of the World was indeed all recorded 625 that would certainly make more sense than switching standards part way through a story!
Although I don't disagree with what Boz_Lowdownl said earlier, it would have been very "un-BBC" to do that, and I should know, I worked there for nearly 40 years!
I dunno. The recording numbers for the 6 eps are:
VTM/4T/42231
VTM/4T/42378
VTM/6LT/42351
VTM/6LT/42764
VTM/6LT/42924
VTM/6LT/42774

All were in Studio D at Lime Grove, which may explain the idea of a mid-story change - they simply had to go with when the booked studio was upgraded?

The other "fly in the ointment" with the theory the serial went 625 at episode 1 is that other VT/FR codes follow suit to the above. E.G. the recaps done in the same VTR for the next episode in each case are 35M/4T/blah changing to 35M/6LT/blah for the one done with ep 3 for the start of ep4.

I can't remember if there is a quality change on the eps (I don't remember thinking there *was*). If not, then that would indeed seem to over-ride the above codes, and it was 625 starting with ep 1. There should def be an improvment w.r.t. "The Ice Warriors", the previous story (and done in the same studio) - is that the case? I seem to think yes.
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Old 01-03-2016, 21:18
Dave-H
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Well that proves as far as I'm concerned that 1-2 were 405 and 3-6 were 625, strange though that seems to me!
The "L" means a low band recording incidentally.
High band and low band videotape recordings only came in with 625.
Early 2" colour tapes are VTC/6HT numbers, which means colour 625 high band.
The BBC never used low band for colour as the quality was not so good, and they always ran the tapes at 15 inches per second as well. It was possible to run at 7˝ ips, which made the tapes last twice as long of course, but the quality suffered badly apparently (I never saw one!)
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Old 01-03-2016, 23:14
GDK
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But the article says specifically there's a documentation error?

I can tell I'm going to have to buy this one to see for myself the PQ, and whether it's credible all were 625 line.
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Old 01-03-2016, 23:17
Sambda
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Well that proves as far as I'm concerned that 1-2 were 405 and 3-6 were 625, strange though that seems to me!
The "L" means a low band recording incidentally.
High band and low band videotape recordings only came in with 625.
Early 2" colour tapes are VTC/6HT numbers, which means colour 625 high band.
The BBC never used low band for colour as the quality was not so good, and they always ran the tapes at 15 inches per second as well. It was possible to run at 7˝ ips, which made the tapes last twice as long of course, but the quality suffered badly apparently (I never saw one!)
A couple of missing 1972 TOTP (incomplete) episodes* were located a few years back as colour low-band recordings. They were, apparently, just random dubs of something/anything to practice editing on at BBC Scotland. Here is a performance from one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-F1d5D1O-s When these performances have been used on e.g. "TOTP2" they have killed the colour completely, apart from in one lone instance.

How did the 7.5ips thing work? The sweeps in 2" quad were across the width of the tape. Wouldn't a slower speed just have meant the sweeps were partially overlaying each other... with the actual writing speed (i.e. the speed the heads were spinning) being the same?

(* = 22/6/72 & 16/11/72)
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Old 01-03-2016, 23:29
Westy2
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A couple of missing 1972 TOTP (partial) episodes were located a few years back as colour low-band recordings. They were, apparently, just random dubs of something/anything to practice editing on. Here is a performance from one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-F1d5D1O-s When these performances have been used on e.g. "TOTP2" they have killed the colour completely, apart from in one lone instance.
The Move's California Man by chance?
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Old 02-03-2016, 00:09
Sambda
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I've just looked at "Enemy" and "Ice Warriors" and, to be honest, I can't see a whole lot of difference overall between any of the episodes therein. Any of "Enemy" doesn't look any better than "Ice Warriors" (which we know was 405). And the individual eps of "Enemy" also seem much of a muchness to me.

There's more of a difference between some of the early and late 405-line episodes (e.g. S1 versus S5).

I wouldn't like to call it based on the visual quality.
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Old 02-03-2016, 00:09
Sambda
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The Move's California Man by chance?
Yep, seems so - see here, in situ on TOTP2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNClsvgv2V0
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Old 02-03-2016, 00:10
Dave-H
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A couple of missing 1972 TOTP (incomplete) episodes* were located a few years back as colour low-band recordings. They were, apparently, just random dubs of something/anything to practice editing on at BBC Scotland. Here is a performance from one of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-F1d5D1O-s When these performances have been used on e.g. "TOTP2" they have killed the colour completely, apart from in one lone instance.
How did the 7.5ips thing work? The sweeps in 2" quad were across the width of the tape. Wouldn't a slower speed just have meant the sweeps were partially overlaying each other... with the actual writing speed (i.e. the speed the heads were spinning) being the same?
(* = 22/6/72 & 16/11/72)
That's interesting about the Scottish partial TOTP recordings, as you say they were probably just done as engineering tests. I bet they included the Pan's People sections! I first went to work in the BBC videotape department in 1972, so it's possible that some low band colour tests were done for transmission use earlier than that, although I never personally saw any. I've always assumed they didn't use it because of the quality loss, especially with multi-generation dubs.
I never saw a 7˝ips recording either, although the machines had a big button to switch them over. I don't know because I never experienced doing it, but I would imagine you must have had to change the head assembly for a different one.
Of course the sound was lower quality too at the slower speed.
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Old 02-03-2016, 12:26
GDK
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I've just looked at "Enemy" and "Ice Warriors" and, to be honest, I can't see a whole lot of difference overall between any of the episodes therein. Any of "Enemy" doesn't look any better than "Ice Warriors" (which we know was 405). And the individual eps of "Enemy" also seem much of a muchness to me.

There's more of a difference between some of the early and late 405-line episodes (e.g. S1 versus S5).

I wouldn't like to call it based on the visual quality.
I have just ordered these, out of curiosity about the technical issues and because the Ice Warriors are one of my favorite classic Doctor Who monsters.
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Old 02-03-2016, 16:34
Dave-H
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I've just looked at "Enemy" and "Ice Warriors" and, to be honest, I can't see a whole lot of difference overall between any of the episodes therein. Any of "Enemy" doesn't look any better than "Ice Warriors" (which we know was 405). And the individual eps of "Enemy" also seem much of a muchness to me.
There's more of a difference between some of the early and late 405-line episodes (e.g. S1 versus S5).
I wouldn't like to call it based on the visual quality.
Although 625 film recordings are obviously intrinsically better quality than 405 ones, there are a huge number of other variables that make the quality of recordings vary, regardless of their source. Later recordings tend to be better than early ones simply because of enhancements that were added to the technology over time of course, like improved sharpening techniques.
It's a great shame that AFAIK no DWs were ever recorded onto 35mm film, as the later 35mm 625 film recordings were very good quality indeed. The 16mm machines, which I remember using myself, needed a lot of TLC to get the best out of them. Focussing was very critical, but the worst bugbear was picture stability, due to the fast pull-down mechanisms used, (which made enough noise to wake the dead!) If everything was not aligned perfectly, vertical jitter was very noticeable.
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Old 02-03-2016, 22:55
Sambda
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It's a great shame that AFAIK no DWs were ever recorded onto 35mm film, as the later 35mm 625 film recordings were very good quality indeed. The 16mm machines, which I remember using myself, needed a lot of TLC to get the best out of them. Focussing was very critical, but the worst bugbear was picture stability, due to the fast pull-down mechanisms used, (which made enough noise to wake the dead!) If everything was not aligned perfectly, vertical jitter was very noticeable.
The following eps were film recorded from 625 onto 35mm and TX'd that way:
"The Dalek Invasion of Earth" 5 (some doubt, apparently - may have been 405-line)
"The Power of the Daleks" 6
"The Wheel in Space" 5 & 6
"The Dominators" 3
"The Mind Robber" 5
"The Krotons" 1
"The Seeds of Death" 5
"The Space Pirates" 2

Where these episodes survive today, they are the 35mm TX originals, I believe. This is because the eps were sent to the Film Library rather than being on tape and waiting to be wiped/junked. The "Power" episode and "Wheel" 5 were nevertheless junked by the actual Film Library sometime before 1970.

From memory, "Wheel" 6 and "Space" 2 are the best quality, from what I remember without checking.
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Old 03-03-2016, 00:43
Dave-H
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I'm in awe of your knowledge of this!
I am actually quite surprised, because in all of my involvement with DW restoration, which ended in 2009 admittedly, I don't think I ever saw any episodes remastered from 35mm film recordings, they were always 16mm.
I don't doubt at all that some episodes were cut and transmitted on 35mm film, as that was the standard format for exteriors in the black and white days, and if there was little studio involved it made prefect sense to transfer the studio to 35mm film and make the whole thing as a film production.
Do any of those 35mm transmission prints survive though? I don't remember ever seeing or indeed even hearing of one. What a shame if that's the case, as the exterior scenes would look fantastic!
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