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Football Neutrals Thread - Part 2


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Old 16-05-2016, 12:18
Jim De Ville
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How often has Wilshire shown this making things happen ability of his?
Can you put forward games in which has done just that on a consistent basis?
I don't need to provide you with specific 'evidence'.

Anyone who has seen him play will know what I'm talking about. If you can't see why Wilshere is a quality player, then there's no hope for you.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:20
celesti
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An international callup should be based on picking the best players available. Wilshere's one of those players, as shown by Hodgson giving him every opportunity to be available. Wilshere doesn't play a particularly advanced role for England, which you surely ought to be aware of if you weren't just looking at a list of stats.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:24
batdude_uk1
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I don't need to provide you with specific 'evidence'.

Anyone who has seen him play will know what I'm talking about. If you can't see why Wilshere is a quality player, then there's no hope for you.
So you cannot or will not put forward evidence of where Wilshire has done well on a regular basis (as anyone can have one or two good games, see the other thread on here about players being famous for five minutes), yet still proclaim him as being an obviously talented player?

Surely if a player is as obviously talented as you proclaim him to be, it should be easy or easier to put forward games, or a period of time in which it was easy to see him doing well?

For example, you mentioned Xavi, from 2008-2012 he was fantastic, simply superb, an amazingly talented player, the finals of the Champions League against us in Rome and at Wembley, he dominated us and our midfield.

Is it possible to do something similar with Wilshire?
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:27
celesti
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You can tell when a player's talented by watching them play football. Have you ever actually watched him play? Or anyone for that matter? Recycled opinions and statistics is all we get.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:28
Jim De Ville
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Can you provide me with evidence of Mark Noble giving match-winning displays in Champions League finals?
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:29
batdude_uk1
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An international callup should be based on picking the best players available. Wilshere's one of those players, as shown by Hodgson giving him every opportunity to be available. Wilshere doesn't play a particularly advanced role for England, which you surely ought to be aware of if you weren't just looking at a list of stats.
I know what sort of role he plays, I was just wondering where this great run of form was for him to be a justifiable pick, or is it all based purely on potential with him, without that potential actually having to turn into reality?

Having bucket loads of potential is great, superb, but at some stage in a players career, he has to turn it into actual ability doesn't he?
With highlights or something to show that what was called potential has now turned into actual ability?
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:33
batdude_uk1
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Can you provide me with evidence of Mark Noble giving match-winning displays in Champions League finals?
What had that got to do with anything?

I gave you a specific example regarding Xavi, a player that you brought up in relation to Wilshire, and then proceeded to give you an example of a period of time and a few games of importance of when he did very well.

Since Noble has not (to my knowledge) played in the Champions League, nevermind in any actual final(s), then why even mention or ask such a question?

Why not try and answer my question to you, that for some reason you are unwilling to answer, yet are very willing to pull me down over any possible answer that I give to you when you question my response(s).
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:34
batdude_uk1
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You can tell when a player's talented by watching them play football. Have you ever actually watched him play? Or anyone for that matter? Recycled opinions and statistics is all we get.
I would like to watch him play on a consistent basis, but unfortunately he has missed a heck of a lot of games over the past two years.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:38
celesti
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I know what sort of role he plays
No you don't. You asked if he scores goals like Alli or tackles like Dier. You have absolutely no idea.


He doesn't have potential, he has ability. He also has nearly 30 international caps which suggests he's an established England player for a reason. The only single question mark over him is the physical, and he's got another two weeks with England for them to decide on that.

I would like to watch him play on a consistent basis, but unfortunately he has missed a heck of a lot of games over the past two years.
They've recorded football for at least 50 years now, somebody should have told you.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:39
Jim De Ville
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What had that got to do with anything?

I gave you a specific example regarding Xavi, a player that you brought up in relation to Wilshire, and then proceeded to give you an example of a period of time and a few games of importance of when he did very well.

Since Noble has not (to my knowledge) played in the Champions League, nevermind in any actual final(s), then why even mention or ask such a question?

Why not try and answer my question to you, that for some reason you are unwilling to answer, yet are very willing to pull me down over any possible answer that I give to you when you question my response(s).
You're touting Mark Noble for the England team.

You're also saying that Wilshere shouldn't go, because he hasn't matched Xavi's Champions League final exploits.

Logic.

I've answered your 'question'. I've seen Wilshere play, and I'm convinced that he's better than all of our other options. Not being able to give you specific matches that he's won on his own doesn't change that. I'm sure that an Arsenal fan would be able to give you the examples that you seem to wholly rely on.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:40
TheSloth
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So you cannot or will not put forward evidence of where Wilshire has done well on a regular basis (as anyone can have one or two good games, see the other thread on here about players being famous for five minutes), yet still proclaim him as being an obviously talented player?
Here's your evidence, the key part being:

"Unbelievably, Wilshere won his sixth man of the match in seven games for his country with a goal-scoring performance against Slovenia"

I'm no Arsenal fan but don't have a selective or slanted memory and remember those performances well. If he's fit, he deserves a place in the squad. With Barkley's dip in form and Rooney's fading influence, we need as much guile in the squad as we can muster.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:45
misawa97
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Wilshere should go. He may not of played much but his a quality player and its not like England are blessed with alternatives.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:46
FMKK
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So the big revelation is that Jack Wilshere isn't as good as Xavi at his peak? Startling.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:54
batdude_uk1
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No you don't. You asked if he scores goals like Alli or tackles like Dier. You have absolutely no idea.

I asked those questions in relation to where he fits into the England team.
Dier deserves his spot in the team as he has been fantastic this season, in the holding role, and Ali as an attacking player has also been great, so he deserves a place in the team, so would you pick Wilshere ahead of either of those two?


He doesn't have potential, he has ability. He also has nearly 30 international caps which suggests he's an established England player for a reason. The only single question mark over him is the physical, and he's got another two weeks with England for them to decide on that.



They've recorded football for at least 50 years now, somebody should have told you.
So we have to go back a long way to see Wilshire playing well is that what you are saying?


You're touting Mark Noble for the England team.

You're also saying that Wilshere shouldn't go, because he hasn't matched Xavi's Champions League final exploits.

I am not saying anything of the sort whatsoever, please go back and re-read what I said, as I didn't say anything like that.
You were the one who decided to bring Xavi and Pirlo into this not me.
I gave you a time frame in Xavi's career when he was doing very well, this was not, I repeat, not, for a comparison basis.

Is is possible to do the same with Wilshire? When was his time when he was doing well, and was ontop of his game? Are we in that period right now?
Is it possible to say which games he has played very well in, in which his obvious potential was on show?


Logic.

I've answered your 'question'. I've seen Wilshere play, and I'm convinced that he's better than all of our other options. Not being able to give you specific matches that he's won on his own doesn't change that. I'm sure that an Arsenal fan would be able to give you the examples that you seem to wholly rely on.
No you have not answered my questions at all.

All you have said is that it is obvious that he is a good player, and anyone that questions that doesn't know what he is talking about.

Again I will ask you it, just to make it clear, which games has he shown his obvious potential in, and has he had a significant period/consistent period where he has shown his potential?

Surely at some stage, he has to show this huge potential that he has, and he has to do it on a regular basis, for him to warrant (a) the hype around him, and (b) a place in this squad?

How many games has he featured in, where he has played over a hour in the past two years?
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:56
batdude_uk1
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Here's your evidence, the key part being:

"Unbelievably, Wilshere won his sixth man of the match in seven games for his country with a goal-scoring performance against Slovenia"

I'm no Arsenal fan but don't have a selective or slanted memory and remember those performances well. If he's fit, he deserves a place in the squad. With Barkley's dip in form and Rooney's fading influence, we need as much guile in the squad as we can muster.
I was talking for club level more than international level, but thanks for the link.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:56
batdude_uk1
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So the big revelation is that Jack Wilshere isn't as good as Xavi at his peak? Startling.
No not at all, where did you get that from?
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:58
Dandem
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I feel like we're going around in circles.

The truth is, the alternatives to Wilshere are just not good enough. Noble? Nope. Shelvey? Nah. Cattermole perhaps? Nope. Britton, Cleverley, Rodwell, Colback, Mason, Carroll, Grealish? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope and nope.
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Old 16-05-2016, 12:58
Stilton Cheesew
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Most people can see the talent Wilshere has as a player and most have seen him play well for England. His biggest problem is his inability to stay fit for a long period. This must be very frustrating for Arsenal but fortunately enough for England he just needs to stay fit for a few short weeks whilst the Euro's is on. If he then breaks down in September then that is unfortunate but has no real relevance to this.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:00
TheSloth
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I was talking for club level more than international level, but thanks for the link.
You've jumped the shark now - that's an hilariously cock-eyed counter given the context. Take a bow...
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:00
NorthernNinny
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I'm more concerned with whether Wilshire can last the distance tournament wise.

Doesn't matter how good he is if he hobbles off early doors.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:00
Jim De Ville
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No you have not answered my questions at all.

All you have said is that it is obvious that he is a good player, and anyone that questions that doesn't know what he is talking about.

Again I will ask you it, just to make it clear, which games has he shown his obvious potential in, and has he had a significant period/consistent period where he has shown his potential?

Surely at some stage, he has to show this huge potential that he has, and he has to do it on a regular basis, for him to warrant (a) the hype around him, and (b) a place in this squad?

How many games has he featured in, where he has played over a hour in the past two years?
I can't be arsed anymore.

Your arrogant, petulant tone is leading this into territory that I've no desire to visit.

Wilshere is a top class player. I can see that, it appears that most others can see that, you can't see that. Fine.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:03
celesti
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So we have to go back a long way to see Wilshire playing well is that what you are saying?
This would have been clever if anyone was pretending he's not been out injured for a year, sadly they're not. I'm saying you could quite easily watch him play if you want to form an opinion that isn't based on a list of stats or something recycled from elsewhere. You could start with him bossing a number of Euro 2016 qualifiers that were mentioned earlier?


Dier deserves his spot in the team as he has been fantastic this season, in the holding role, and Ali as an attacking player has also been great, so he deserves a place in the team, so would you pick Wilshere ahead of either of those two?
Another thing nobody is saying is that Alli or Dier should be dropped. Hodgson doesn't play the flat formation you picked your team on, he's most likely going to stick with the three-man midfield. If Jack Wilshere's fit to play, I'd have him in that spot ahead of Jordan Henderson or Fabian Delph any day of the week.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:05
Stilton Cheesew
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I'm more concerned with whether Wilshire can last the distance tournament wise.

Doesn't matter how good he is if he hobbles off early doors.
He's fresh and ready to rock I would assume. As long as he lasts for a few weeks before his next injury its happy days for England.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:05
TheSloth
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I can't be arsed anymore.

Your arrogant, petulant tone is leading this into territory that I've no desire to visit.

Wilshere is a top class player. I can see that, it appears that most others can see that, you can't see that. Fine.
He clearly doesn't know Jack...
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:05
Nova21
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Out of interest, Jim and Celesti, at what point would you say that Wilshere should not be considered for England? How much time should a player be able to miss, in this case, pretty much a whole season, and then get back into the squad?
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