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Football Neutrals Thread - Part 2


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Old 16-05-2016, 13:05
celesti
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I was talking for club level more than international level, but thanks for the link.
Strange you didn't specify that before. Let's have your list of Pirlo's imperious club level performances then.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:10
celesti
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Out of interest, Jim and Celesti, at what point would you say that Wilshere should not be considered for England? How much time should a player be able to miss, in this case, pretty much a whole season, and then get back into the squad?
If he's considered not fit enough by the end of May, that's it. If an established player comes back from injury at their club they get back in the team as soon as possible, same should apply to internationals. It's a gamble absolutely worth taking as teams very rarely use the whole squad at a tournament anyway.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:11
TheSloth
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Hopefully Roy and his staff will be able to see enough between now and the deadline to assess whether Wilshere is fit enough to gamble on. That's the whole point of this period.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:13
Jim De Ville
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Out of interest, Jim and Celesti, at what point would you say that Wilshere should not be considered for England? How much time should a player be able to miss, in this case, pretty much a whole season, and then get back into the squad?
I don't think that there's a set answer for that. It'll depend on how important the player is, how fit he is at any given time, whether the injuries have taken their toll on things like pace, etc.

I think that Wilshere is significantly better than the other options to be worth taking.

Put it this way, if Messi was injured for 2 years, how long after his return to fitness would Argentina wait before picking him?

*Disclaimer: I'm obviously not comparing Wilshere to Messi.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:13
Nova21
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If he's considered not fit enough by the end of May, that's it. If an established player comes back from injury at their club they get back in the team as soon as possible, same should apply to internationals. It's a gamble absolutely worth taking as teams very rarely use the whole squad at a tournament anyway.
I agree that the 23 man squad means that we can comfortably afford a couple of risky picks.

I just don't rate Wilshere as much as you guys do I suppose in terms of the necessity for him to be selected without having recently done anything.... Game of opinions!
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:13
Stilton Cheesew
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If he has played for Arsenal at all then he is physically fit so I don't see it as a massive risk in that respect. Hodgson likes him and will stand or fall by his decisions so he might as well take the guys he likes with him.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:14
Nova21
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I don't think that there's a set answer for that. It'll depend on how important the player is, how fit he is at any given time, whether the injuries have taken their toll on things like pace, etc.

I think that Wilshere is significantly better than the other options to be worth taking.

Put it this way, if Messi was injured for 2 years, how long after his return to fitness would Argentina wait before picking him?

*Disclaimer: I'm obviously not comparing Wilshere to Messi.
Fair enough... As above re my view on Wilshere vs you guys
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:17
Stilton Cheesew
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I don't think that there's a set answer for that. It'll depend on how important the player is, how fit he is at any given time, whether the injuries have taken their toll on things like pace, etc.

I think that Wilshere is significantly better than the other options to be worth taking.

Put it this way, if Messi was injured for 2 years, how long after his return to fitness would Argentina wait before picking him?

*Disclaimer: I'm obviously not comparing Wilshere to Messi.
I think its also important to note that this isn't in any way similar to the fiasco's of previous tournaments where Beckham and Rooney were rushed back. Wilshere is decent but he isn't pivotal to the hopes of a nation. It makes far more sense to take him along knowing that it isn't the end of the world for the team if he isnt 100% but could be a great bonus if he is.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:17
celesti
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I agree that the 23 man squad means that we can comfortably afford a couple of risky picks.

I just don't rate Wilshere as much as you guys do I suppose in terms of the necessity for him to be selected without having recently done anything.... Game of opinions!
I think the emergence of Alli and Dier have helped any case for selecting Wilshere. He's a fine player but not undroppably vital so if he does collapse in a heap a week in it's not the end of the world.
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:28
batdude_uk1
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I'm more concerned with whether Wilshire can last the distance tournament wise.

Doesn't matter how good he is if he hobbles off early doors.
Exactly!
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:44
batdude_uk1
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If he has played for Arsenal at all then he is physically fit so I don't see it as a massive risk in that respect. Hodgson likes him and will stand or fall by his decisions so he might as well take the guys he likes with him.
So he doesn't have to actually have played well, or done anything of note, just him being fit is worthy enough of a place in the squad??
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Old 16-05-2016, 13:45
batdude_uk1
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I agree that the 23 man squad means that we can comfortably afford a couple of risky picks.

I just don't rate Wilshere as much as you guys do I suppose in terms of the necessity for him to be selected without having recently done anything.... Game of opinions!
Be careful, it seems as if you question Wilshire's abilities, you will get told that you know nothing about football.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:29
celesti
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Don't try and corral up the posse. There are over 62000 reasons you get told you know nothing about football.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:35
batdude_uk1
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Don't try and corral up the posse. There are over 62000 reasons you get told you know nothing about football.
What "posse" would that be then??

I do know about football, just because I question the validity of players being involved at an international tournament doesn't change that.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:37
celesti
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It's not just that, as I already allude to in the post that you just quoted.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:41
batdude_uk1
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It's not just that, as I already allude to in the post that you just quoted.
So what you are saying is that all of my posts (or the vast majority) prove that I know nothing about football, okay then, you can believe that if you want, you would be wrong though.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:45
celesti
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People plead not guilty but still get convicted thanks to overwhelming evidence.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:50
batdude_uk1
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People plead not guilty but still get convicted thanks to overwhelming evidence.
As I say, believe what you want, but saying or claiming that I know nothing about football would be totally wrong.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:54
celesti
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References to managers winning championships involve them being in the English second tier

Mesut Ozil isn't good because he doesn't kick the ball very hard

Jurgen Klopp can't manage and wave his arms around at the same time

Players and managers will never join clubs who already have players and managers

Etc

Etc

I'm dead wrong.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:55
Pee
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Wilshere's injury record makes him look better than he actually is. everyone fantasises about what he would do if he could just stay fit, but IMO he's never shown anything to suggest he's anything more than an above-average player in a greatly underwhelming team. he's been talked about and highly/over-rated for about 7 or 8 years now, and I could probably name 100 players in world football that have emerged and outperformed him since then.

having 30 England caps just means you have 30 England caps btw, it isn't irrefutable proof of quality. you simply have to be English and playing for a club in the Top 10 these days to get a look in. Milner has 55 caps, and yet is the very personification of a basic footballer.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:56
batdude_uk1
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References to managers winning championships involve them being in the English second tier

Mesut Ozil isn't good because he doesn't kick the ball very hard

Jurgen Klopp can't manage and wave his arms around at the same time

Players and managers will never join clubs who already have players and managers

Etc

Etc

I'm dead wrong.
Yes you are dead wrong, taking specific examples totally out of context to try and prove your point, does far more to harm you then myself.
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Old 16-05-2016, 14:57
batdude_uk1
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Wilshere's injury record makes him look better than he actually is. everyone fantasises about what he would do if he could just stay fit, but IMO he's never shown anything to suggest he's anything more than an above-average player in a greatly underwhelming team. he's been talked about and highly/over-rated for about 7 or 8 years now, and I could probably name 100 players in world football that have emerged and outperformed him since then.

having 30 England caps just means you have 30 England caps btw, it isn't irrefutable proof of quality. you simply have to be English and playing for a club in the Top 10 these days to get a look in. Milner has 55 caps, and yet is the very personification of a basic footballer.
Thank you for writing this, it is something that I am in full agreement with.
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Old 16-05-2016, 15:00
celesti
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having 30 England caps just means you have 30 England caps btw, it isn't irrefutable proof of quality. you simply have to be English and playing for a club in the Top 10 these days to get a look in. Milner has 55 caps, and yet is the very personification of a basic footballer.
But it means that if Hodgson hadn't watched a single second of Milner this season he'll still know exactly what he's getting, same with Wilshere.
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Old 16-05-2016, 15:01
celesti
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Yes you are dead wrong, taking specific examples totally out of context to try and prove your point, does far more to harm you then myself.
They're all but verbatim, there was no context to remove. It's the exact points you made at the time and were roundly questioned on, before in a few cases just repeating them later.

Unedited quote:

Sorry, but Ozil is not someone that will take a good team onto that next level.

He is no way near good enough, consistently, he is just too flaky, I don't think that I have ever seen him hit a ball hard before, it just seems to be all flicks, and outside of the boot stuff.


His goalscoring record for an attacking player, and someone who cost as much as he did is also rubbish, he should be getting far more than he does for that price.

He was a bad buy by Wenger, especially at the price they paid for him.
Unedited replies

I disagree. Ozil is a playmaker, but Arsenal don't use him properly. he needs movement ahead of him to be effective, but there are too many cooks there all wanting to play behind the ball rather than ahead of it. you put someone like Higuain in that Arsenal lineup, and it's a different story. Ozil's not without his faults - I think he hides/plays too safe at times, but he is a brilliant footballer.

to claim it's easy to look good at Real is completely absurd btw
So a playmaker is not expected to score goals is he? Or at least chip in with his fair share? Ozil just doesn't do enough for me in any area, for me to consider him in the top bracket of players, certainly not in the bracket that Arsenal signed him in (£40 million plus wasn't it?).
Ozil has as many goals in his career to date as Iniesta, more assists, and creates more chances too. Iniesta also doesn't kick very hard. by your logic, he was/is pretty unfit for purpose too, wouldn't you say?
And then the stock escape clause

Inestia is a completely different sort of player, to what Ozil is supposed to be, so why the comparison?

I can see that we are not going to agree on this topic, I don't really rate Ozil, and you do, fair enough, I see no harm in having different opinions, so I will just let this lie, rather than going round and round in circles.
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Old 16-05-2016, 15:05
yellowlabbie
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Thank you for writing this, it is something that I am in full agreement with.
Did you agree when Wayne Rooney was picked to play international football when he wasn't fully fit? I think he is lucky to have been picked this time.
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