Originally Posted by Grim Fandango:
“I'm quite happy with our defensive options.”
“I'm quite happy with our defensive options.”
Yep, me too. Joint-best in the division last season, with Bailley in and Shaw back.
Football Neutrals Thread - Part 2
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Mourinho has hinted that ideally he'd like another CB, but it's not a pressing issue and besides, players need to leave first.
Originally Posted by Jamesp84:
“None of the defences from the top teams look overly clever, with the possible exception of Spurs.”
“None of the defences from the top teams look overly clever, with the possible exception of Spurs.”
We had a very good defence last season and unlike some of our rivals (City, Arsenal, and Chelsea for example) we have added to that area with a very good signing, and a player that is almost like a new signing in Shaw.
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“We had a very good defence last season and unlike some of our rivals (City, Arsenal, and Chelsea for example) we have added to that area with a very good signing, and a player that is almost like a new signing in Shaw.”
“We had a very good defence last season and unlike some of our rivals (City, Arsenal, and Chelsea for example) we have added to that area with a very good signing, and a player that is almost like a new signing in Shaw.”
You need a new RB badly (Valencia and Darmian won't do) and a bit of cover in the other positions. Shaw has suffered from a bad injury and may not return the same player, Rojo isn't up the standard that you guys want to rise to and Phil Jones is way too injury prone. Daley Blind I rate higher in a DM position.
I also don't think your current youngsters (Blackett, McNair, Borthwick-Jackson) are going to be good enough, but I've been wrong about youngsters before.
Amazes me people seem to know so much about Uniteds squad. I couldnt tell you the right back in any of the top half teams last year let alone who their youngsters are.
Originally Posted by Dandem:
“You need a new RB badly (Valencia and Darmian won't do) and a bit of cover in the other positions. Shaw has suffered from a bad injury and may not return the same player, Rojo isn't up the standard that you guys want to rise to and Phil Jones is way too injury prone. Daley Blind I rate higher in a DM position.
I also don't think your current youngsters (Blackett, McNair, Borthwick-Jackson) are going to be good enough, but I've been wrong about youngsters before.”
“You need a new RB badly (Valencia and Darmian won't do) and a bit of cover in the other positions. Shaw has suffered from a bad injury and may not return the same player, Rojo isn't up the standard that you guys want to rise to and Phil Jones is way too injury prone. Daley Blind I rate higher in a DM position.
I also don't think your current youngsters (Blackett, McNair, Borthwick-Jackson) are going to be good enough, but I've been wrong about youngsters before.”
Our defence was actually our strong point in a very turgid season last year, so I am not too worried about that side of things, and seeing as we have improved it with the addition of Bailly, then I do feel secure in that area (plus hopefully Pogba will not be playing too many Fellainiesq suicidal backpasses).
Is it as strong as some of our defences of the past, probably not, but comparing it to our rivals, I think we come out pretty darn well.
Originally Posted by percygumtree:
“Amazes me people seem to know so much about Uniteds squad. I couldnt tell you the right back in any of the top half teams last year let alone who their youngsters are.”
“Amazes me people seem to know so much about Uniteds squad. I couldnt tell you the right back in any of the top half teams last year let alone who their youngsters are.”
To be fair it seems that fans in general of other clubs in digital spy are more interested in the premier league overall and follow their club and others in more depth than Man United fans do.
There are no other club threads that their own fans that pre season games are a waste of time and not worth watching and that take the mickey out of in depth knowledge of their your teams.
Nb, this is a general point and doesn't cover every single Man United fan on here.
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“Our defence was actually our strong point in a very turgid season last year, so I am not too worried about that side of things, and seeing as we have improved it with the addition of Bailly, then I do feel secure in that area (plus hopefully Pogba will not be playing too many Fellainiesq suicidal backpasses).
Is it as strong as some of our defences of the past, probably not, but comparing it to our rivals, I think we come out pretty darn well.”
“Our defence was actually our strong point in a very turgid season last year, so I am not too worried about that side of things, and seeing as we have improved it with the addition of Bailly, then I do feel secure in that area (plus hopefully Pogba will not be playing too many Fellainiesq suicidal backpasses).
Is it as strong as some of our defences of the past, probably not, but comparing it to our rivals, I think we come out pretty darn well.”
I think your defensive record last season was down more to the management of LvG as opposed to the quality of the squad. LvG always sought to protect fragile leads more than he would seek to tonk the opposition. Not saying that he parked the bus, but given the open, expansive system and high line used by the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, it's no surprise that United's defence looked solid in comparison.
Originally Posted by Dandem:
“I think your defensive record last season was down more to the management of LvG as opposed to the quality of the squad. LvG always sought to protect fragile leads more than he would seek to tonk the opposition. Not saying that he parked the bus, but given the open, expansive system and high line used by the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, it's no surprise that United's defence looked solid in comparison.”
“I think your defensive record last season was down more to the management of LvG as opposed to the quality of the squad. LvG always sought to protect fragile leads more than he would seek to tonk the opposition. Not saying that he parked the bus, but given the open, expansive system and high line used by the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, it's no surprise that United's defence looked solid in comparison.”
Under LVG the club rarely took the lead to defend it. United had a very good defence record last season partly through having a decent set of defenders but mainly through playing very turgid possession based football. Throw in an awesome keeper and it all added up.
Originally Posted by Dandem:
“I think your defensive record last season was down more to the management of LvG as opposed to the quality of the squad. LvG always sought to protect fragile leads more than he would seek to tonk the opposition. Not saying that he parked the bus, but given the open, expansive system and high line used by the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, it's no surprise that United's defence looked solid in comparison.”
“I think your defensive record last season was down more to the management of LvG as opposed to the quality of the squad. LvG always sought to protect fragile leads more than he would seek to tonk the opposition. Not saying that he parked the bus, but given the open, expansive system and high line used by the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, it's no surprise that United's defence looked solid in comparison.”
I guess you could read it like that, and you certainly would have a point, however the fact remains that we did have a good defence, and that was probably more of a reason why we got as close to getting a Champions League place, then our attacking play, which for the most part was way below par.
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“I guess you could read it like that, and you certainly would have a point, however the fact remains that we did have a good defence, and that was probably more of a reason why we got as close to getting a Champions League place, then our attacking play, which for the most part was way below par.”
“I guess you could read it like that, and you certainly would have a point, however the fact remains that we did have a good defence, and that was probably more of a reason why we got as close to getting a Champions League place, then our attacking play, which for the most part was way below par.”
Fair enough, if that's what you think. I still think you need a RB though. Smalling, Bailley and Shaw are fine. You can do better than Valencia and Darmian though.
Here is a good article which dispels the myth about shirt sales recouping player transfer fees or wages.
http://thesetpieces.com/features/tra...-myth-busting/
http://thesetpieces.com/features/tra...-myth-busting/
Quote:
“No club has ever directly recouped a player’s transfer fee through shirt sales.
adidas, Nike, Puma, and other kit suppliers get 85-90% of shirt sale revenue and this is the industry standard.
While there are some exceptions – a club like Bayern Munich, which is part-owned by adidas, may get a slightly more favourable revenue share, and generally, once a certain (very large) number of shirts are sold, the revenue split on additional sales will skew more favourably to the club – these are the exceptions to the general rule.
As an example, Manchester United have a ten-year kit deal with adidas worth £750 million. This is one of the largest kit deals in football (behind only Barcelona’s deal with Nike and Real Madrid’s new adidas deal, which has yet to be formally announced), and easily the largest in the Premier League.
However, the primary reason adidas is paying Manchester United £75 million per year is not simply to have a tiny logo emblazoned on United’s kit and use the club for marketing purposes. Of course, being associated with one of the few truly global clubs in football helps adidas to capture market share in emerging markets and further solidify its presence in existing markets. But for the supplier, kit deals are licensing deals, and that’s where the real value lies to adidas.
Football clubs are, by nature, football clubs. They’re meant to do football things. They don’t have the infrastructure required to manufacture and distribute millions of kits. Many can’t even handle running online shops, the logistics of which they outsource to third parties.
For any cynical readers who may not be so inclined to take our word for it – after all, it is a popular myth – just have a look at both United’s and adidas’ July 2014 announcements of the deal, where the partnership is described, quite clearly, as a licensing package.
In fact, adidas CEO Herbert Hainer triumphed the deal as a “collaboration [that] marks a milestone for us when it comes to merchandising potential. We expect total sales to reach £1.5 billion during the duration of our partnership.””
“No club has ever directly recouped a player’s transfer fee through shirt sales.
adidas, Nike, Puma, and other kit suppliers get 85-90% of shirt sale revenue and this is the industry standard.
While there are some exceptions – a club like Bayern Munich, which is part-owned by adidas, may get a slightly more favourable revenue share, and generally, once a certain (very large) number of shirts are sold, the revenue split on additional sales will skew more favourably to the club – these are the exceptions to the general rule.
As an example, Manchester United have a ten-year kit deal with adidas worth £750 million. This is one of the largest kit deals in football (behind only Barcelona’s deal with Nike and Real Madrid’s new adidas deal, which has yet to be formally announced), and easily the largest in the Premier League.
However, the primary reason adidas is paying Manchester United £75 million per year is not simply to have a tiny logo emblazoned on United’s kit and use the club for marketing purposes. Of course, being associated with one of the few truly global clubs in football helps adidas to capture market share in emerging markets and further solidify its presence in existing markets. But for the supplier, kit deals are licensing deals, and that’s where the real value lies to adidas.
Football clubs are, by nature, football clubs. They’re meant to do football things. They don’t have the infrastructure required to manufacture and distribute millions of kits. Many can’t even handle running online shops, the logistics of which they outsource to third parties.
For any cynical readers who may not be so inclined to take our word for it – after all, it is a popular myth – just have a look at both United’s and adidas’ July 2014 announcements of the deal, where the partnership is described, quite clearly, as a licensing package.
In fact, adidas CEO Herbert Hainer triumphed the deal as a “collaboration [that] marks a milestone for us when it comes to merchandising potential. We expect total sales to reach £1.5 billion during the duration of our partnership.””
Quote:
“Despite the nonsense you may have heard about Zlatan Ibrahimovic shirt sales generating £50 million for Manchester United, which would far exceed his wages, it’s simply not true. In fact, United don’t even automatically receive the 10-15% industry-standard royalty payment, no doubt because the up-front £75 million annual payment is so large. United’s royalty payment only kicks in once a certain number of shirts are sold.
Just under three million Manchester United shirts were sold last season. As a case in point, let’s assume that Ibrahimovic helps sell an additional 300,000 shirts. A 10% increase is a very optimistic projection, especially considering Ibrahimovic is a Nike athlete and won’t be engaging in any adidas promotional activities on his own. His image rights deal with United will almost certainly allow the club to feature him in adidas promotional activities, as long as he appears with at least two other United players and the activity does not imply that Ibrahimovic is giving a personal endorsement to adidas.
Additionally, while many United fans may choose to buy an Ibrahmovic shirt, over, say, a Chris Smalling shirt, those fans were already going to buy a shirt in the first place.
Let’s also assume that United’s royalty kicks in after three million shirts are sold, and the club receive a 15% royalty on each subsequent shirt sold. Assuming a price of £70 per shirt, that’s an additional £21 million in gross sales from 300,000 shirts. Manchester United’s cut of that would be just over £3 million. Now, £3 million is certainly not an insignificant amount, but it offsets less than 20% of what Ibrahimovic will likely cost the club this season (wages, agent fee, signing bonus, image rights deal).
So, at best, United are likely to see around £3 million in additional revenue. While certainly not a paltry sum, it doesn’t come close to covering his costs, let alone help United earn an additional £50 million.”
“Despite the nonsense you may have heard about Zlatan Ibrahimovic shirt sales generating £50 million for Manchester United, which would far exceed his wages, it’s simply not true. In fact, United don’t even automatically receive the 10-15% industry-standard royalty payment, no doubt because the up-front £75 million annual payment is so large. United’s royalty payment only kicks in once a certain number of shirts are sold.
Just under three million Manchester United shirts were sold last season. As a case in point, let’s assume that Ibrahimovic helps sell an additional 300,000 shirts. A 10% increase is a very optimistic projection, especially considering Ibrahimovic is a Nike athlete and won’t be engaging in any adidas promotional activities on his own. His image rights deal with United will almost certainly allow the club to feature him in adidas promotional activities, as long as he appears with at least two other United players and the activity does not imply that Ibrahimovic is giving a personal endorsement to adidas.
Additionally, while many United fans may choose to buy an Ibrahmovic shirt, over, say, a Chris Smalling shirt, those fans were already going to buy a shirt in the first place.
Let’s also assume that United’s royalty kicks in after three million shirts are sold, and the club receive a 15% royalty on each subsequent shirt sold. Assuming a price of £70 per shirt, that’s an additional £21 million in gross sales from 300,000 shirts. Manchester United’s cut of that would be just over £3 million. Now, £3 million is certainly not an insignificant amount, but it offsets less than 20% of what Ibrahimovic will likely cost the club this season (wages, agent fee, signing bonus, image rights deal).
So, at best, United are likely to see around £3 million in additional revenue. While certainly not a paltry sum, it doesn’t come close to covering his costs, let alone help United earn an additional £50 million.”
Shirt sales are only worth mentioning if its an additional sale that wouldn't have happened had the player not signed. I'm quite sure clubs are aware of this when they make a player purchase.
I don't think anyone with any form of credibility really tries to justify the cost of a player in purely financial terms. If you were doing that you would adopt the Arsenal model of being financially happy with top 4 and not push on to further success.
In order to justify any signing you can only really do it by looking back at a players success at the end of their time with the club. What did the club win? Did the club progress? Did that player play a big part in that success? Did the player stay for a number of years and hold down a first team place for that length of time? How much did the club recoup when they sold him on? All these things are factors.
I don't think anyone with any form of credibility really tries to justify the cost of a player in purely financial terms. If you were doing that you would adopt the Arsenal model of being financially happy with top 4 and not push on to further success.
In order to justify any signing you can only really do it by looking back at a players success at the end of their time with the club. What did the club win? Did the club progress? Did that player play a big part in that success? Did the player stay for a number of years and hold down a first team place for that length of time? How much did the club recoup when they sold him on? All these things are factors.
Indeed... So man United fans saying that it's a no brained and a no lose situation because of re-sale value do need to actually see what they win with him and others to judge if they were worth the money
Originally Posted by Nova21:
“Indeed... So man United fans saying that it's a no brained and a no lose situation because of re-sale value do need to actually see what they win with him and others to judge if they were worth the money”
“Indeed... So man United fans saying that it's a no brained and a no lose situation because of re-sale value do need to actually see what they win with him and others to judge if they were worth the money”
I don't think anyone on here has said that. Most people are happy that we know he's not about to get any shock to the system moving back to Manchester or the Premier League and unless something goes majorly wrong then if he goes to Real in however many years we'll get a decent chunk of money.
Considering United had "no chance" of signing Pogba and it was considered "arrogant" to say that we could, I think we've done alright.
Originally Posted by JoTaylor:
“I don't think anyone on here has said that. Most people are happy that we know he's not about to get any shock to the system moving back to Manchester or the Premier League and unless something goes majorly wrong then if he goes to Real in however many years we'll get a decent chunk of money.”
“I don't think anyone on here has said that. Most people are happy that we know he's not about to get any shock to the system moving back to Manchester or the Premier League and unless something goes majorly wrong then if he goes to Real in however many years we'll get a decent chunk of money.”
People have said that and emphasised his re sale value as a major reason that he is worth spending the fee that you have paid for him. I haven't seen anyone mention a lack of shock to the system or moving back to Manchester as being a reason he is worth the money. Even if that may be true
Originally Posted by Jamesp84:
“Considering United had "no chance" of signing Pogba and it was considered "arrogant" to say that we could, I think we've done alright.”
“Considering United had "no chance" of signing Pogba and it was considered "arrogant" to say that we could, I think we've done alright.”
Football fans don't know what 'arrogant' means when it comes to the attitude of clubs or countries.
Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea 
Originally Posted by Nova21:
“People have said that and emphasised his re sale value as a major reason that he is worth spending the fee that you have paid for him. I haven't seen anyone mention a lack of shock to the system or moving back to Manchester as being a reason he is worth the money. Even if that may be true”
“People have said that and emphasised his re sale value as a major reason that he is worth spending the fee that you have paid for him. I haven't seen anyone mention a lack of shock to the system or moving back to Manchester as being a reason he is worth the money. Even if that may be true”
I don't know how to say this so I'll just blurt it out. There's a real world outside of DS and there are fans and everything and we talk. Not every comment made on here literally refers to the DS forum.
There was a full stop after my first sentence.
Originally Posted by Grim Fandango:
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea”
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea
”
That's the right attitude to have. Overvalued or not it doesn't matter if your a fan and are happy x player has signed for your club.
Originally Posted by Grim Fandango:
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea”
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea
”
He was never lining up for them, the only club that he would come back to England for would have been us, and so it has proven to be true.
Exciting times lie ahead.
Originally Posted by Grim Fandango:
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea”
“Couldn't give one shiny turd about the money, I'm just delighted Paul Pogba is lining up for us and not City or Chelsea
”
Yeah I would have loved him at Chelsea, undoubted world class player. Overpriced? Perhaps, but that's never really been a concern to PL clubs. The right age to minimise it as an issue.
Suppose its good to see these types of players coming back in the direction of England rather than going elsewhere.
Originally Posted by JoTaylor:
“I don't know how to say this so I'll just blurt it out. There's a real world outside of DS and there are fans and everything and we talk. Not every comment made on here literally refers to the DS forum.
There was a full stop after my first sentence.”
“I don't know how to say this so I'll just blurt it out. There's a real world outside of DS and there are fans and everything and we talk. Not every comment made on here literally refers to the DS forum.
There was a full stop after my first sentence.”
Yes there is. I was replying to your comment that specifically referred to 'people on here'
Originally Posted by Monkey Harris:
“Yeah I would have loved him at Chelsea, undoubted world class player. Overpriced? Perhaps, but that's never really been a concern to PL clubs. The right age to minimise it as an issue.
Suppose its good to see these types of players coming back in the direction of England rather than going elsewhere.”
“Yeah I would have loved him at Chelsea, undoubted world class player. Overpriced? Perhaps, but that's never really been a concern to PL clubs. The right age to minimise it as an issue.
Suppose its good to see these types of players coming back in the direction of England rather than going elsewhere.”
The tv deal has certainly switched the balance of power from the Spanish two, as now they are certainly not going to get things all their own way anymore.
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