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Man United Supporters Thread (Part 50) |
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#2751 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Quote:
I was not begrudging him a send off, he deserved one, as he was a super player for them, and as I say deserved any and all plaudits that came his way, but it did kind of seem as if he were retiring, rather than simply moving clubs.
I think with the press and media, they did more for Gerrard, then for Carragher or Giggs in their respective last matches, and both were actually retiring, not moving to a different club. When Gerrard actually does retire (be it in November, or whenever), allow him a testimonial at Anfield, to say goodbye to the fans, as he most certainly would have deserved it, but the fact is, he was leaving Liverpool to continue his playing career elsewhere, so the hype at the end personally I thought was a little over the top, when compared with other possible players on a similar level (Giggs and Carragher), who actually did retire. Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but that is how it came across to me at the time. |
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#2752 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Gerrard was a talismanic figure, for Liverpool.
Carragher, Giggs, even Scholes just didn't have that aura of 'carrying' the club for so long, despite being bona fide 'legends'. Well the Scholes send off was of course (the second and final one) interspersed with Sir Alex leaving, so he didn't get a separate send off. I understand that he was a talismanic figure for Liverpool and a true legend of their club, but I just think it was all a but much for someone who was not retiring, if he was, then all of the stuff would have been acceptable, if not more, but for someone just moving clubs, to continue playing elsewhere (the club and league is irrelevant), was I think a bit over the top. I think mosaics etc, should be left for players playing their last game before retirement, (hence why for example the ones we did for Sir Alex were perfectly acceptable for the occasion). Do all of this during his testimonial match, that to me makes far more sense. Quote:
Yes I think you are correct to suggest you are wrong in your thinking, you seem to have misunderstood what was happening.
What was happening, correct me if I am wrong, was a legendary player leaving one club, to continue playing elsewhere. Have I got that right? |
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#2753 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 10,040
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Quote:
I understand that he was a talismanic figure for Liverpool and a true legend of their club, but I just think it was all a but much for someone who was not retiring, if he was, then all of the stuff would have been acceptable, if not more, but for someone just moving clubs, to continue playing elsewhere (the club and league is irrelevant), was I think a bit over the top.
The club and league are not at all 'irrelevant', in the context of what you're saying. They are absolutely 'irrelevant' in the world of professional football. I know that you like to think that women's and youth football matches are on a par with the Champions League final, but you're absolutely wrong. Not all football is at the same level, or of the same importance. Gerrard went to America to enjoy the weather, pick up a nice pension, and have a gentle kickabout. The very definition of retirement! |
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#2754 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,094
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Not sure. Could easily see him as a natural replacement for Carrick.
I'm genuinely fine with him in central defence, central midfield, or at left-back. He's impressed me massively, this year. The only thing lacking is pace (and perhaps height, for a CB). Reading, passing, tackling, strength, vision: All excellent, in my view. Very strange that it's so far on in the season and we've heard nothing. |
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#2755 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 10,040
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Yeah, I was thinking about Carrick. Still not entirely convinced he will get a new contract. Could be a new manager coming in who doesn't want him or our current one not wanting him either.
Very strange that it's so far on in the season and we've heard nothing. He's certainly dropped off a few levels, this year. |
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#2756 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
And that's where you're going spectacularly wrong.
The club and league are not at all 'irrelevant', in the context of what you're saying. They are absolutely 'irrelevant' in the world of professional football. I know that you like to think that women's and youth football matches are on a par with the Champions League final, but you're absolutely wrong. Not all football is at the same level, or of the same importance. Gerrard went to America to enjoy the weather, pick up a nice pension, and have a gentle kickabout. The very definition of retirement! I do not at all think youth football is on a par with the Champions League final, what a stupid thing to say, I have no idea where you have got that from. Do I like watching youth and women's football, yes, but I know and recognise what their level us in respect to other levels of football that there are. Gerrard was an iconic player, and one that did so much for Liverpool on and off the pitch, I fully understand that, and of course him leaving was always going to be a huge event, and he of course deserved all of the applause, and plaudits that came his way, once again I have no issue with that. What I do think was over the top for someone simply moving to continue his playing career elsewhere, was the mosaics, and the media implying that this was the end for Gerrard, when it wasn't, (if it was, then all of that would have been very much acceptable, and understandable, and very much well deserved) he was moving clubs to continue his playing career. The league he went to, be it the Bundesliga, La Liga, etc, doesn't matter, as the same thing applies, he is still playing and is contracted to another club. Do all of the mosaics, have the media say that this is his last game etc, when it actually is his last game before retirement, not when it is not his last game. Have a testimonial, that is the place for such things in this situation (again it would have been fine, if like Carragher, he was actually retiring), not during a league match. |
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#2757 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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He might be considering retirement, I guess.
He's certainly dropped off a few levels, this year. For a proven Premier League player, and title winner, surely there would be clubs still interested in him? That does make me think that perhaps he has told people in confidence that he could be retiring at the end of the season. If that were to be the case, then going out after winning the FA Cup, wouldn't be a bad way to finish. |
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#2758 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,646
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"Mourinho asked by Woodward to wait a year to take over at United"
So says Tomorrow's Sun newspaper. LOL |
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#2759 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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"Mourinho asked by Woodward to wait a year to take over at United"
So says Tomorrow's Sun newspaper. LOL I have no idea what the truth of the matter is, but hopefully things will become clearer sooner rather than later. |
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#2760 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 10,040
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It is being very derogatory towards MLS, calling it such names as "an exhibition league", or a "retirement league", it has made great strides since the early days, it is not at the same level as say the Indian Super League, which is at the infant stage in its development.
Fact is, if MLS had made these 'great strides', then one of their top teams wouldn't be signing a clearly past-it Steven Gerrard, and paying him a shedload for the privilege. Quote:
I do not at all think youth football is on a par with the Champions League final, what a stupid thing to say, I have no idea where you have got that from.
Not to mention the amount of times that you've claimed/demanded that a player be given a chance in the first team, because he's scored a handful of goals for the under 5's. Thanks for the 'stupid' comment, though. Is there really any need for personal insults? Quote:
Do I like watching youth and women's football, yes, but I know and recognise what their level us in respect to other levels of football that there are.
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What I do think was over the top for someone simply moving to continue his playing career elsewhere, was the mosaics, and the media implying that this was the end for Gerrard, when it wasn't, (if it was, then all of that would have been very much acceptable, and understandable, and very much well deserved) he was moving clubs to continue his playing career.
Do all of the mosaics, have the media say that this is his last game etc, when it actually is his last game before retirement, not when it is not his last game. Have a testimonial, that is the place for such things in this situation (again it would have been fine, if like Carragher, he was actually retiring), not during a league match. |
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#2761 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,646
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I forgot the link:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...d-hotseat.html You just can't make it up, although I can only hope someone did. This is The Sun, after all. |
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#2762 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,094
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"Mourinho asked by Woodward to wait a year to take over at United"
So says Tomorrow's Sun newspaper. LOL 'Please Jose, can you take a twelve month sabbatical because even though Louis has been shit I still want him to see out his contract'. This is off the scale crazy! |
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#2763 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Doesn't matter. It's still a comparatively irrelevant league. Look at all of the conversations on here, regarding the actual top leagues. Is there even a thread for MLS?
Fact is, if MLS had made these 'great strides', then one of their top teams wouldn't be signing a clearly past-it Steven Gerrard, and paying him a shedload for the privilege. Possibly from your numerous posts about us winning 'the title', for example. Just the other day, you were banging on about 'showing off the trophy' at the players' awards. Seriously, who cares? Not to mention the amount of times that you've claimed/demanded that a player be given a chance in the first team, because he's scored a handful of goals for the under 5's. Thanks for the 'stupid' comment, though. Is there really any need for personal insults? The evidence suggests otherwise. I've seen you conflate how many caps that England players have won, regardless of their sex, for instance. And what's wrong with any of that? Another club wanted to celebrate the career of one of their greats. The media wanted to make a story of it. So what? Why does that upset you so much? There are different levels to leages, there is no doubt about that, is MLS on a par with the Premier League? No it isn't, but is the Dutch league, or the Belgian league? Does that make them "retirement homes"?? The Indian Super League is in the infant stage of its development, so if that particular tag was going to be applied to any league in particular, then that would have far more of a claim than the current MLS. MLS has made some very astute signings, look at for example Givonco, he is someone that could be playing in Serie A, or another good standard of league. As for your comments on the Under 21 league title, okay, fair enough, if you personally do not care about the teams below the first team, or the players that are involved, but why put down those that do? |
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#2764 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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The fact is that they (Scholes and Giggs) didn't leave us, perhaps a more apt or appropriate comparison might have been Beckham, he didn't get the sort of media attention/love in when he left us for Real Madrid.
His last match (away at Everton from memory), was not treated as if he was retiring from the game, he was moving clubs, just like players before him did, and have done since. There's no such comparison between the two, either, Beckham didn't spend his whole career at Man United only to go somewhere else for two seasons. Quote:
With Gerrard, yes he was a great player for Liverpool, but he was just moving clubs, unlike say Carragher, who did actually retire, so fully deserved that sort of media attention (the last match where he had a shot that hit the post I remember most vividly), as he was a Liverpool great, and he fully deserved all of the applause going his way. And this is where my problem is. It's the way you're treating the whole thing, talking about him "just moving clubs", he didn't "just move clubs", it's not a normal player "just moving clubs" or going to a different league. If I have to explain why then I'm done talking to you.But with Gerrard, it was as if he were actually retiring, when he wasn't, he was simply moving clubs, and is still playing this season (as their season doesn't finish until November, if Galaxy reach the play-offs). Do all of the media stuff with Liverpool, when he actually does retire from the game as a professional, I would have no issue at all with that, as he would then definitely deserve it. But to act as if he were retiring, rather than simply moving us, was to my mind, way over the top. Oh and it might be disrespectful to talk of the MLS as a retirement league but so what? For years now that's what it's been, and for Gerrard that's what it was. Do you think he went there for a new challenge? You talk about it being disrespectful then say it'd be okay if we were talking about the Indian league because it's new, when that makes no sense and it's hypocritical of you to be talking about that league in such a way after saying we're being disrespectful to the MLS. Like it's okay to be insulting to the Indian league because it's new but stop being mean to the MLS. Gerrard went to the MLS for a kickabout to see out the remainder of his career. He effectively did retire, and the media didn't have to wait until he retires officially and have a testimonial because their whole focus was him leaving Liverpool and the Premier League, not him retiring, but they were doing it because of his status and how long he's been here and what he's done that they were treating it like he was retiring from Liverpool and the Premier League. If they wait until the end of the MLS season and he officially announces his retirement they wouldn't get much of a story out of it. |
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#2765 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,612
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Anyway back to on the pitch matters, at least the nightmare scenario of seeing both Liverpool and City winning their respective European trophies is over with.
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#2766 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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You really don't understand the concept of examples, do you? I said IF. But because they didn't you'd rather focus on that rather than the point of the example.
There's no such comparison between the two, either, Beckham didn't spend his whole career at Man United only to go somewhere else for two seasons. And this is where my problem is. It's the way you're treating the whole thing, talking about him "just moving clubs", he didn't "just move clubs", it's not a normal player "just moving clubs" or going to a different league. If I have to explain why then I'm done talking to you. Oh and it might be disrespectful to talk of the MLS as a retirement league but so what? For years now that's what it's been, and for Gerrard that's what it was. Do you think he went there for a new challenge? You talk about it being disrespectful then say it'd be okay if we were talking about the Indian league because it's new, when that makes no sense and it's hypocritical of you to be talking about that league in such a way after saying we're being disrespectful to the MLS. Like it's okay to be insulting to the Indian league because it's new but stop being mean to the MLS. Gerrard went to the MLS for a kickabout to see out the remainder of his career. He effectively did retire, and the media didn't have to wait until he retires officially and have a testimonial because their whole focus was him leaving Liverpool and the Premier League, not him retiring, but they were doing it because of his status and how long he's been here and what he's done that they were treating it like he was retiring from Liverpool and the Premier League. If they wait until the end of the MLS season and he officially announces his retirement they wouldn't get much of a story out of it. They were the nearest ones that came to mind, when trying to think of players for us that left us after a long period of time being here, and being successful on and off of the pitch. As for being disrespectful towards the Indian Super League (rather than the older more established Indian League), I was only trying to get across that it is at a very different stage in its development as a league, when compared to MLS, which has been around for a lot longer, and has developed further since its early days (with shoot-outs for drawn games for example). I didn't mean to disrespect either league, so my apologies if it came across like that to you. Going back to the Gerrard situation, I understand where you are coming from, Gerrard was an iconic, and historic player of legendary status at Liverpool, and as I say fully deserved all of the many plaudits that came his way, as he was at times like a one man machine in dragging you to victories and points. This is I guess just where we disagree on things however, (which again, I am not trying to belittle Gerrard or what he meant to the club or the fans at all) as I do think things went a little over board by the press and media, with all of the all most retirement level stories and atmosphere towards the end. It would have been perfectly understandable, and indeed deserved if say like Carragher, he was actually retiring after that last home match, (against Palace I think it was), but he wasn't, he was moving to play elsewhere for someone else (no matter your idea of standard of league, the same would apply if say, he was joing Bayern or Real Madrid for example). I don't mind the fans paying him a heroes farewell, as he very much deserved one, but to my mind it did come across as him actually retiring from the messages by former team-mates, and prices in the press at the time, which just was not the case, he was joining another club to play for them. It was the way it was all done which to me did not have the correct tone, I think that is what came across to me more than anything else. I hope that clears things up between us somewhat. |
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#2767 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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I agree with you, that there are no direct comparisons, hence why I tried to use either the Beckham, or Robson situation's, as they were both players who were loved by our fans, and who left to go and play elsewhere, those were the nearest ones that I could think off (maybe Schmeichel as well, but he was not of course homegrown like Gerrard).
They were the nearest ones that came to mind, when trying to think of players for us that left us after a long period of time being here, and being successful on and off of the pitch. Beckham isn't a close enough comparison, that's why I used Giggs or Scholes because they would have been. I used them as an EXAMPLE, a hypothetical example, but I thought I didn't need to spell out to you that I was speaking completely hypothetically when using a hypothetical example to make a point. So I'll make the point again. If Scholes or Giggs, two players who WOULD be direct comparisons, decided to leave for the MLS for two seasons before they retired how would you have expected the media to react? Or want them to react? Do you think they should have been a bit low-key? After all, they weren't retiring, they just moved clubs like many other players. Should the media have been quiet about that? Maybe do a little special show at the end of the season, or maybe do a little buildup to the last (home?) game and leave it at that until they finally retired? |
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#2768 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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I'm not going to bother with any of the rest of your post because I'll only be repeating myself.
Beckham isn't a close enough comparison, that's why I used Giggs or Scholes because they would have been. I used them as an EXAMPLE, a hypothetical example, but I thought I didn't need to spell out to you that I was speaking completely hypothetically when using a hypothetical example to make a point. So I'll make the point again. If Scholes or Giggs, two players who WOULD be direct comparisons, decided to leave for the MLS for two seasons before they retired how would you have expected the media to react? Or want them to react? Do you think they should have been a bit low-key? After all, they weren't retiring, they just moved clubs like many other players. Should the media have been quiet about that? Maybe do a little special show at the end of the season, or maybe do a little buildup to the last (home?) game and leave it at that until they finally retired? It is a hard one, as we are talking about a completely made up situation regarding Giggs and Scholes, so it is just a case of what each of us would wish for,rather than what actually happened, so we are placing a lot of faith in our own imaginations here. I can only say what I would have liked to have seen happen, you might disagree, which would be fair enough. I understand that Beckham or Robson are not direct comparisons, and I have said that in previous posts on this topic, and I understand that it is a topic close to your heart, and that is fair enough and very understandable. |
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#2769 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Country
Posts: 2,904
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Jesus i hope LVG gets sacked because i quite frankly cant take another year of him in charge. I mean surely Woodward must now know he isnt the man. We are not gonna get 4th place although there is hope i guess but im a realist. Do the right thing Ed and sack him at end of season and lets move forward.
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#2770 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,094
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Jesus i hope LVG gets sacked because i quite frankly cant take another year of him in charge. I mean surely Woodward must now know he isnt the man. We are not gonna get 4th place although there is hope i guess but im a realist. Do the right thing Ed and sack him at end of season and lets move forward.
In other news, I see Obertan has been released by Newcastle. What a strange signing that was. |
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#2771 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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If we do keep him for another year then Ed and anyone else responsible for sanctioning it should walk quite frankly. Hopefully the season ticket holders will vote with their feet .
In other news, I see Obertan has been released by Newcastle. What a strange signing that was. We did sign a few random players like him Diouf, and Dong, for a while! |
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#2772 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,025
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I forgot the link:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...d-hotseat.html You just can't make it up, although I can only hope someone did. This is The Sun, after all. What would be the point? Why would he even consider it? What would happen if van gaal managed to win everything in his path in that season? What...... Do you know what???? I can't be bothered. Such lazy journolism |
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#2773 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,245
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What would be the point? Why would he even consider it? What would happen if van gaal managed to win everything in his path in that season? What......
Do you know what???? I can't be bothered. Such lazy journolism I'm just hoping all LVG's bluster is just that. I can t actually face another year of his style and his impenetrable philosophy. @Batdude, I can't be bothered to quote any of your long posts regarding Gerrard. I find it hard to believe that you really believe the stance that you are clinging to. I muttered furiously over the media fawning over Gerrard leaving Liverpool but I knew that it was completely understandable. Whether he technically 'retired' or not is a moot point. He was a Liverpool icon, legend, talisman - call him what you will (no, not that - this is a family thread...). Anyway, you might as well complain that Giggs had a testimonial years before he actually retired and indeed with Giggs, as you said, he is still with the club in a senior capacity. It really isn't arguable that Liverpool should have treated Gerrard's departure as him just joining another club. I'd even would go so far as to suggest that even if he was leaving to join a club in a comparable league, given his service at Liverpool, they should and would still have acknowledged his departure in a big way. There are no laws regarding how a club can or should show respect for departing and or long serving players. TBH, this isn't even debatable in my view. |
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#2774 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Darn Sarf
Posts: 28,724
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What would be the point? Why would he even consider it? What would happen if van gaal managed to win everything in his path in that season? What......
Do you know what???? I can't be bothered. Such lazy journolism One PL scenario I'm a bit nervous about is the spectre of City collapsing and West Ham grabbing 4th. spot from us. That really would hurt, so we absolutely have to turn up at their place to spoil their last match celebrations. Oh, and win the other two as well! |
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#2775 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Yeah, the suggestion is ludicrous beyond belief. If any United bigwig actually thought that this was tenable (hi Jose, we snubbed you before but we really like you, only not enough to sack our useless manager because we want to save face...see you next year...) then they all would be morons of an impossibly high level.
I'm just hoping all LVG's bluster is just that. I can t actually face another year of his style and his impenetrable philosophy. @Batdude, I can't be bothered to quote any of your long posts regarding Gerrard. I find it hard to believe that you really believe the stance that you are clinging to. I muttered furiously over the media fawning over Gerrard leaving Liverpool but I knew that it was completely understandable. Whether he technically 'retired' or not is a moot point. He was a Liverpool icon, legend, talisman - call him what you will (no, not that - this is a family thread...). Anyway, you might as well complain that Giggs had a testimonial years before he actually retired and indeed with Giggs, as you said, he is still with the club in a senior capacity. It really isn't arguable that Liverpool should have treated Gerrard's departure as him just joining another club. I'd even would go so far as to suggest that even if he was leaving to join a club in a comparable league, given his service at Liverpool, they should and would still have acknowledged his departure in a big way. There are no laws regarding how a club can or should show respect for departing and or long serving players. TBH, this isn't even debatable in my view. I understand that Gerrard was (and is to Liverpool fans) all of the terms that you use to describe him, and that is very fair to call him those. However, as I say, it was the tone of things that really annoyed me, or rather I thought was off a tad, as it did come across (to me anyway), that he was retiring, when he was not. I guess that is my main bugbear with the whole issue, if they had decided to actually mention LA Galaxy as his next destination more often, rather than hardly at all from the coverage that I saw, then I guess it would not have seemed so quite like a retirement situation. I understand that I may be in a very tiny minority (of maybe just myself), but that is how I felt over that situation. |
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