I agree with you in that I hope that this really is curtains and the final nail.in his coffin with us, as surely even the board can see we are not moving forward in any way with him, we are moving backwards at a very fast pace.

So.....

Half an hour ago you said that we shouldn't keep unhappy players.

We are Man Utd, we have a stack of cash, the TV deal plus all our other income (far more than, oh for example, Everton), but if Martial says "sod this" and asks to leave you are saying we should let him go regardless of how highly we rate him because although we have all this money "whats the sense in keeping an unhappy player".

however.....

If we bid a large amount for Lukaku and Lukaku fancies coming to us and doubling his salary (in theory) and says to Everton "sod this" and asks to leave, you are equally saying that Everton should and will say, "we have plenty of money now, we dont need to sell" therefore they won't sell regardless of Lukaku saying "sod this" and wanting to leave. In this instance you are saying they absolutely should and will keep an unhappy player.

That is 100% a contradiction, based solely on whether we are potentially the buying or selling side of the argument.

Again, I said that it is not as simple as just lodging a bid for a player, a lot has to be thought about by the potentially selling club, more than just finances, or the players wish to leave.

Let's use your Martial example, if he wanted to leave us, we would have to consider his importance to the team (high), length of contract (long-term deal), and what the manager wanted in terms of him wanting him sold or not (I don't know for sure, but let's say he would like to keep him on for the purpose of this hypothetical situation).
All of that would play it's part (I am sure that other things would come into the reckoning as well) in if the club were to accept any bids for him.

That goes for any club, if for example Romero was unhappy, and wanted a move, then he might be allowed to move a bit more quicker than Martial, due to his importance or not to the team.

If we were interested in signing Lukaku, then we would be on the opposite side of these considerations, and we would have to really go out of our way to try and persuade Everton to allow us to sign him.

It would be entirely up to each club to consider the merits of selling any player, and the incoming finances will of course play it's part in helping to make that final decision.

Linked to Heysel? Not heard that one.

Well given that the chant at Anfield was 'The Sun was right you're murderers' i think that tells us which incident they are referring to.

My husband went to the game, he said there were Liverpool fans outside the ground chanting about Munich.

Looks like there are idiots that just don't get it on either side.

Well that sucked. It was always possible Liverpool would score and put the tie beyond reach, but not just going for it in the second half when we had nothing to lose was pathetic and to make it so easy for Liverpool was embarrassing. Next up is inevitable defeat away to City to end any lingering hopes of 4th. May and the end of LVG's miserable reign can't come soon enough.

I know how transfers work thanks. None of that is relevant to you saying that we shouldn't be keeping unhappy players on one hand whilst not taking a players happiness into any sort of consideration when dismissing any transfer story or player linked with us "because the clubs dont have to sell because of the TV deal'. We dont have to sell because of the TV deal either but you are saying we shouldn't keep unhappy players.

The truth is you will always take the opposite point of view in order to cause an argument or "discussion" as you like to put it. Its attention seeking. Thats exactly whats happened here. Argued with every transfer anyone has put forward here Kane, Lukaku or any of the others by trotting out the same line which suggests that only the money matters and clubs won't sell. Then last night when I say "we dont need to sell because of the TV deal" suddenly the money isn't the only factor and all of a sudden clubs shouldn't keep unhappy players. Of course I deliberately mentioned the TV deal just to see what you would say when the boot was on the other foot and of course you crashed on regardless.

Anyway, I dont want to be arguing with someone in such a fragile medical state so I think we'll just leave this one alone now. I wouldn't want to be a cause of further deterioration before your operation.

I don't just take the opposite viewpoint of what you say, that would be stupid petty and very silly, and I am not any of those things.
The truth is that I don't wish to artificially create debates in the manner that you suggest here, you have your opinion on this subject, and I have mine.
That is fair enough, I have tried logically and calmly to put forward my viewpoint to try and get you to see things differently, that has not worked this time, again fair enough, that happens in debates.
But please let's not say it things that are not true, let's try and stick to the subject matter, rather than calling people names, as that is just all rather pointless and divisive is it not?

The morning after the night before and I bet we all feel a bit flat......

I'm not angry, disappointed or upset, I'm just feeling nothing really.

Jose needs to be announced soon, if the rot sets in any more it could have longer damning effects.

I'd be happy with Jose or giggs in charge, the only issue I have is what happens at the end of next season if we aren't in contention for any silverware, no champions league football and are playing poor football. Who would we turn to then?
For me we need to make an announcement now about van Gaal or giggs or Jose, I'd much prefer woodward was to change his role. Let him control the money side of things, do we need a director of football?
Maybe not yet.

If Jose comes in and runs the club the way fergie did and we are a success then maybe not. If he comes in and fails then we probably do need a director of football.

I'm not sure what to say or think anymore.

I really don't get this Jose or GIggs thing, (not having a go at you here either) but if Jose isn't the answer, why can we not look elsewhere for a proven manager ? Apart from maybe Blanc there doesn't appear to be rumours of other potential candidates.

It's like GIggs is the default option for the don't like Jose contingent.

Didn't think you were having a go buddy.

I'm all for another manager taking over, I mentioned giggs and Jose simply because they are the 2 that seem to be in pole position.

I'd like blanc here, martinez could do a good job here as with pocechetino.

I do feel if we went after any manger out there and actually made them an offer then they would seriously consider it.
The only problem we have is we seem to be a reactive club rather than a creative club . We react to what's happening rather than creating and controlling , and I don't just mean on the pitch.

It was revealed we never went and had any conversation with Guardiola.....WHY?
We should have asked him if he was interested, made an offer and told him the job is yours.

The thing with giggs and Jose is that it's as if giggs was told he would have the job when Louis left and now some want Jose, nobody dares make a decision on what's guns happen for the fear of upsetting one of giggs and Jose.

I'm ranting again. Sorry

No to Martinez, he can't organise a defence to save his life. He's living off that Fa cup success. Everton have massively underachieved this year with the squad they've got. Nice football but that was what Wigan had too.

Poch hasn't won anything yet and I can't see him leaving Spurs anyway.

GIggs should never have been told the job was his after LVG if that was the case.

We all know who we need, it's whether the board realise it.

You've never heard the smear of 'murderers' directed at Liverpool fans in relation to Heysel?

Have you only become aware of football this week?

Arguably in Mourinho's system he was asked to fulfil defensive duties off the ball as well as offensive, that's not really what his game is about. A possession based game which Van Gaal adopts should in theory suit his style, but then the lack of players we have in our team with football intelligence and vision stifles his game. So on one hand, we have an ordinary midfield that in games has the ability to control possession but doesn't feed it into dangerous areas quick enough, nor is it a an inventive range of attack to benefit technical players like mata. Of course our style of play involves lots of crosses and long balls which again doesn't suit him. Mata would excell in a free flowing fluid attacking team, dare I say it like Liverpool, Spurs, City or Arsenal.

I haven't called you any names, please do not suggest that I have. That would be wrong.

I just don't understand how you can argue for weeks that any of the players suggested as transfer targets from other English clubs wouldn't come to us because their clubs now have money due to the tv deal, yet at the same time be saying that regardless of money we shouldn't keep a player if he is unhappy.

You have said both these things have no not? Correct me if i'm wrong here, please do. Did you not say that the likes of Kane and Lukaku would not come to us because the likes of Spurs and Everton did not need to sell them any more as they were far more wealthy? You said that? Agreed?

Yesterday you said that we shouldn't keep players who were unhappy and that there was no point in doing so. Agreed? That was what you said last night is it not?

If you made both these statements then in each one you are completely ignoring the impact of the other so you are indeed contradicting. In the "buying" scenario, you are ignoring the power of a players desire to leave by saying that the club wont sell because they can afford to reject offers. In the "selling" scenario you are making no mention of the financial implications at all and focussing entirely on the players desire to leave and are suggesting that that should be the most important factor.

I KNOW that the truth is a combination of both but you have gone from one extreme to the other in order to be disagreeable as presumably you cant hold both opinions.

Dortmund v Liverpool

Reply to Northern Ninny: alternative managers: Roberto Di Matteo would be one suggestion.

Are you a comedian?

Right up there with the Ray Wilkins suggestion you made, please stop now

Are you just giving a name or do you seriously think they should consider him? I don't know if you're an Arsenal or Man United fan but would you have him at your club, whichever one it is? Man United can't afford to make such a gamble right now.

Heres hoping Dortmond give Liverpool a Masterclass in football, i was very impressed with the way they dismantled Spurs in the 1st leg and they are a great football Club. Sadly United are in decline and Major surgery is required only time will tell what the summer brings.

The major surgery required is in the dugout.

For sure.

Schadenfreude

What I have said is that from a financial point of view, is that with all of this vast amount of new money coming into the clubs, there is now not the same financial pressures on them to sell their prized assets as there were previously (that is how we got Rooney for example).

The players have of course a say in the matter, and if they really want out of club, and have made that abundantly clear, then there really is no point in any club holding onto them.
Each case should be looked at in its merits, but cases like Mane and Stones show that it is not at all easy for the "bigger" clubs to just come in and sign another clubs prized asset.

Lukaku seems happy at Everton (admittedly I haven't followed him in much detail, so I am only speaking as an outsider looking in), so unless a club comes in with a stunning bid (say £100 million for arguments sake), then really what reason(s) do they have to sell him? He might not want the move, the fans presumably would not want him to be sold, and so might the manager.
So I don't see where the need to sell him would come from?

The only way someone this summer (as who knows what summer 2017 will look like) could sign him, is if he made it really clear that he wanted out, and he would be very unhappy if they stopped him from doing so, and currently that does look unlikely (not impossible, just very, very unlikely).

It is all about looking at the bigger picture, rather than concentrating on only one aspect of a potential transfer.