Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“The major surgery required is in the dugout.”
“The major surgery required is in the dugout.”
It is required both there and on the pitch, as we have a squad that is really unbalanced.
Man United Supporters Thread (Part 50)
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Originally Posted by allan_robertson:
“Reply to Northern Ninny: alternative managers: Roberto Di Matteo would be one suggestion.”
“Reply to Northern Ninny: alternative managers: Roberto Di Matteo would be one suggestion.”
In what way would he be a good suggestion for us?
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“In what way would he be a good suggestion for us?”
“In what way would he be a good suggestion for us?”
Probably from a rival's point of view it would.
Originally Posted by NorthernNinny:
“Probably from a rival's point of view it would.”
“Probably from a rival's point of view it would.”
That is very true, and even I as someone who has said no thanks to José, would much prefer him to Roberto!
As I said last night, I can't accept that a better manager wouldn't get more out of this squad. Granted there are some that need moving on, but that's always been the way even with some of our best squads. A good number of Van Gaal's signings have started off ok before succumbing to philosophy, and should be given the chance to redeem themselves under a new boss.
Originally Posted by Jamesp84:
“As I said last night, I can't accept that a better manager wouldn't get more out of this squad. Granted there are some that need moving on, but that's always been the way even with some of our best squads. A good number of Van Gaal's signings have started off ok before succumbing to philosophy, and should be given the chance to redeem themselves under a new boss.”
“As I said last night, I can't accept that a better manager wouldn't get more out of this squad. Granted there are some that need moving on, but that's always been the way even with some of our best squads. A good number of Van Gaal's signings have started off ok before succumbing to philosophy, and should be given the chance to redeem themselves under a new boss.”
How long do we give the players leeway though?
How many chances do they get to impress, surely there has to be a time when we say enough is enough?
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“How long do we give the players leeway though?
How many chances do they get to impress, surely there has to be a time when we say enough is enough?”
“How long do we give the players leeway though?
How many chances do they get to impress, surely there has to be a time when we say enough is enough?”
"We" don't give them any. The new manager does and the point being made was that a better or different manager would be getting more out of them so it's pointless asking how many chances to impress under a different manager when the club hasn't appointed one yet.
Originally Posted by mickthehat:
“"We" don't give them any. The new manager does and the point being made was that a better or different manager would be getting more out of them so it's pointless asking how many chances to impress under a different manager when the club hasn't appointed one yet.”
“"We" don't give them any. The new manager does and the point being made was that a better or different manager would be getting more out of them so it's pointless asking how many chances to impress under a different manager when the club hasn't appointed one yet.”
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.......
Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.......”
“You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.......
”
Yea because no team in the history of football has ever been more than the sum of their parts have they
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“What I have said is that from a financial point of view, is that with all of this vast amount of new money coming into the clubs, there is now not the same financial pressures on them to sell their prized assets as there were previously (that is how we got Rooney for example).”
“What I have said is that from a financial point of view, is that with all of this vast amount of new money coming into the clubs, there is now not the same financial pressures on them to sell their prized assets as there were previously (that is how we got Rooney for example).”
I know you have said that, Ive repeated it often enough.
Quote:
“The players have of course a say in the matter, and if they really want out of club, and have made that abundantly clear, then there really is no point in any club holding onto them.”
“The players have of course a say in the matter, and if they really want out of club, and have made that abundantly clear, then there really is no point in any club holding onto them.”
So why have you spent weeks and week arguing that none of the players we have discussed would move to us because the clubs no longer need to sell??
Quote:
“Each case should be looked at in its merits, but cases like Mane and Stones show that it is not at all easy for the "bigger" clubs to just come in and sign another clubs prized asset.”
“Each case should be looked at in its merits, but cases like Mane and Stones show that it is not at all easy for the "bigger" clubs to just come in and sign another clubs prized asset.”
No one said it was "easy" I don't know where you have got the idea that anyone has. We simply said that if the player wants to go then he can force the issue and given that we still have more money than the rest that combination can force a deal through at a higher price.
Quote:
“Lukaku seems happy at Everton (admittedly I haven't followed him in much detail, so I am only speaking as an outsider looking in), so unless a club comes in with a stunning bid (say £100 million for arguments sake), then really what reason(s) do they have to sell him? He might not want the move, the fans presumably would not want him to be sold, and so might the manager.
So I don't see where the need to sell him would come from?”
“Lukaku seems happy at Everton (admittedly I haven't followed him in much detail, so I am only speaking as an outsider looking in), so unless a club comes in with a stunning bid (say £100 million for arguments sake), then really what reason(s) do they have to sell him? He might not want the move, the fans presumably would not want him to be sold, and so might the manager.
So I don't see where the need to sell him would come from?”
As discussed at the time Lukaku is ambitions and if we had a new manager, a big budget and we were offering him a lot more money he could have his head turned and he may then wish to leave. If Everton said no then he could become you're very example of an unhappy player which by your own admission no club should hold on to. It was never suggested that Everton "needed" to sell.
Quote:
“The only way someone this summer (as who knows what summer 2017 will look like) could sign him, is if he made it really clear that he wanted out, and he would be very unhappy if they stopped him from doing so, and currently that does look unlikely (not impossible, just very, very unlikely).”
“The only way someone this summer (as who knows what summer 2017 will look like) could sign him, is if he made it really clear that he wanted out, and he would be very unhappy if they stopped him from doing so, and currently that does look unlikely (not impossible, just very, very unlikely).”
Nothing at all to suggest its unlikely. If a bigger club bids for him and offers him a major salary increase and signing on fee. That type of thing happens many many times every single summer. Everton have not had a good season.
Quote:
“It is all about looking at the bigger picture, rather than concentrating on only one aspect of a potential transfer”
“It is all about looking at the bigger picture, rather than concentrating on only one aspect of a potential transfer”
Concentrating on one aspect is what you did last night and what you did previously. They were just different aspects both times.
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“It is required both there and on the pitch, as we have a squad that is really unbalanced.”
“It is required both there and on the pitch, as we have a squad that is really unbalanced.”
No it isn't. 3 players would make a huge difference to an already good squad
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“How long do we give the players leeway though?
How many chances do they get to impress, surely there has to be a time when we say enough is enough?”
“How long do we give the players leeway though?
How many chances do they get to impress, surely there has to be a time when we say enough is enough?”
Every single player has underachieved under Van Gaal and every single signing has got worse. We either accept that they are all really bad players or we accept that they are underperforming due to the manager. There are a lot of very good players in our squad and with a bit of additional support, better team selection and tactics and without the stifling hellishness of Van Gaal I believe we would be much better.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“I know you have said that, Ive repeated it often enough.
So why have you spent weeks and week arguing that none of the players we have discussed would move to us because the clubs no longer need to sell??
No one said it was "easy" I don't know where you have got the idea that anyone has. We simply said that if the player wants to go then he can force the issue and given that we still have more money than the rest that combination can force a deal through at a higher price.
As discussed at the time Lukaku is ambitions and if we had a new manager, a big budget and we were offering him a lot more money he could have his head turned and he may then wish to leave. If Everton said no then he could become you're very example of an unhappy player which by your own admission no club should hold on to. It was never suggested that Everton "needed" to sell.
Nothing at all to suggest its unlikely. If a bigger club bids for him and offers him a major salary increase and signing on fee. That type of thing happens many many times every single summer. Everton have not had a good season.
Concentrating on one aspect is what you did last night and what you did previously. They were just different aspects both times.”
“I know you have said that, Ive repeated it often enough.
So why have you spent weeks and week arguing that none of the players we have discussed would move to us because the clubs no longer need to sell??
No one said it was "easy" I don't know where you have got the idea that anyone has. We simply said that if the player wants to go then he can force the issue and given that we still have more money than the rest that combination can force a deal through at a higher price.
As discussed at the time Lukaku is ambitions and if we had a new manager, a big budget and we were offering him a lot more money he could have his head turned and he may then wish to leave. If Everton said no then he could become you're very example of an unhappy player which by your own admission no club should hold on to. It was never suggested that Everton "needed" to sell.
Nothing at all to suggest its unlikely. If a bigger club bids for him and offers him a major salary increase and signing on fee. That type of thing happens many many times every single summer. Everton have not had a good season.
Concentrating on one aspect is what you did last night and what you did previously. They were just different aspects both times.”
I think that we are going round and round in circles here, there is not much more either of us can say on the matter without repeating ourselves, so I think it would be best to come to an amicable resolution.
Still can''t believe the result, lads.
Crushed. Our plight is keeping me up until the small hours. I even had trouble swallowing in bed last night.
Crushed. Our plight is keeping me up until the small hours. I even had trouble swallowing in bed last night.
Originally Posted by batdude_uk1:
“I think that we are going round and round in circles here, there is not much more either of us can say on the matter without repeating ourselves, so I think it would be best to come to an amicable resolution.”
“I think that we are going round and round in circles here, there is not much more either of us can say on the matter without repeating ourselves, so I think it would be best to come to an amicable resolution.”
Which translates as "Ive been caught out again!"
Yes I think you are right it is very much best left alone.
Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.......”
“You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.......
”
De Gea
Darmain
Smalling
Shaw
Schneiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Herrera
Carrick
Blind
Depay
Rooney
Martial
Mata
These are all players who have played brilliantly under different managers or were brilliant when we signed them, started well and got worse as they settled into the Van Gaal regime.
We either accept that they are all crap or we accept that they are underperforming.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“No it isn't. 3 players would make a huge difference to an already good squad
Every single player has underachieved under Van Gaal and every single signing has got worse. We either accept that they are all really bad players or we accept that they are underperforming due to the manager. There are a lot of very good players in our squad and with a bit of additional support, better team selection and tactics and without the stifling hellishness of Van Gaal I believe we would be much better.”
“No it isn't. 3 players would make a huge difference to an already good squad
Every single player has underachieved under Van Gaal and every single signing has got worse. We either accept that they are all really bad players or we accept that they are underperforming due to the manager. There are a lot of very good players in our squad and with a bit of additional support, better team selection and tactics and without the stifling hellishness of Van Gaal I believe we would be much better.”
If De Gea is under-performing, then we really must have a keeper better than Neuer on our hands, as he has done tremendously even under LvG.
There is a middle ground, it is not all black and white as you are trying to paint it.
The players might be stifling under his orders, but equally for some of them, this just might be what they actually are like.
It is very easy to just blame LvG, and blame his philosophy for how the players have played, but for some of the players we might be seeing this as their peak abilities.
It is an easy thing to think, a new manager equates to improved performances all round, and while for a few players that could well be the case, that might not happen in every case.
We have a few players that have now played under a few managers here, and have not really impressed enough to really make a case for staying here for much longer.
As for the squad being unbalanced, well it is, as well as Rashford has done since he moved on up to the first team, he is playing well above his level, so although I would personally love for him and other younger players to be relied upon to move us on up next season, that isn't really all that realistic.
We could do with another senior striker, to compliment the ones here in Rooney and Martial.
As for midfielders, well Carrick has been a great servant to the club, but his powers are on the wane, and so we really cannot rely on him much more.
Fellini, well, what more can be said about him? He really should be sold if we are to move on to playing better.
The jury is out in my mind on Schweinsteiger, I think he does have the leadership qualities within him still, but I am unsure about how much he can actually give us on the pitch, and for how many years does he have left in him to play at a high enough level to help us compete at the very highest levels.
I like Schneiderlin, so he should stay.
On the wings, we again look very bare, Mata is not a winger, so we either need to find a role for him which brings the best out of him, or he needs to be sold, this playing him out wide, is not doing him or us any favours.
Depay, it is a very hard one time judge, as he has shown glimpses of his talent, but no way near on a regular basis, he really does need to do more next season to show quite why w signed him, so on the basis of his potential, he should stay.
Lingard I guess helps with quota regulations, so he can stay.
Young, I almost forgot about, he has not really had that many chances this season due to injury, so best to keep him on to see if he can get back to anywhere near his peak form with us, although at this stage, I am doubtful if he can.
Defence is a worry, as we really don't have a reliable partnership in the centre, and that is key to any successful side.
We saw this first hand, with two partnerships in particular Bruce and Palister, and then more recently, Rio and Vidic.
It should be Jones and Smalling, but sadly it does seem like Jones is not as reliable with his fitness as we desperately would like him to be.
Full-back are not the most worrisome of positions, and once Shaw comes back, we should be okay there.
So overall, for us to compete at the very highest levels (World Club Championship, Champions League, and sustain a Premier League title race) we could do with more than just three players as you suggest.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“Which translates as "Ive been caught out again!"
Yes I think you are right it is very much best left alone.”
“Which translates as "Ive been caught out again!"
Yes I think you are right it is very much best left alone.”
Why on earth would it translate to that??
I was trying to stop us repeating our points over and over again, and taking up space in the forum, I was not thinking along the lines that you put forward at all.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“
We either accept that they are all crap or we accept that they are underperforming.”
“
We either accept that they are all crap or we accept that they are underperforming.”
Either way the end result is, sadly, the same. All of us have differing views. It speaks volumes that in two matches against Liverpool we did not even manage one goal from open play, and only one goal in three hours at all.
Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“Either way the end result is, sadly, the same. All of us have differing views. It speaks volumes that in two matches against Liverpool we did not even mage one goal from open play, and only one goal in three hours at all.”
“Either way the end result is, sadly, the same. All of us have differing views. It speaks volumes that in two matches against Liverpool we did not even mage one goal from open play, and only one goal in three hours at all.”
Well not really because in one scenario you are going to have a positive result by changing one man, in the other you need to change 11.
The only signing that I can say I really questioned at the time was Martial and he has exceeded expectations. The rest are all good players, internationals bought of big money. It is simplistic to just say "meh they are crap" and chuck another £300m at it.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“Well not really because in one scenario you are going to have a positive result by changing one man, in the other you need to change 11.
The only signing that I can say I really questioned at the time was Martial and he has exceeded expectations. The rest are all good players, internationals bought of big money. It is simplistic to just say "meh they are crap" and chuck another £300m at it.”
“Well not really because in one scenario you are going to have a positive result by changing one man, in the other you need to change 11.
The only signing that I can say I really questioned at the time was Martial and he has exceeded expectations. The rest are all good players, internationals bought of big money. It is simplistic to just say "meh they are crap" and chuck another £300m at it.”
A lot of people would like another £300m chucked at it but the definition of insanity is repeating a process and expecting a different result. Changing one man may well bring about improvement but just like changing players there is no guarantee as to how much.
What we can agree on is that improvement is needed and how it is achieved is out of our hands.
Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“A lot of people would like another £300m chucked at it but the definition of insanity is repeating a process and expecting a different result. Changing one man may well bring about improvement but just like changing players there is no guarantee as to how much.
What we can agree on is that improvement is needed and how it is achieved is out of our hands.”
“A lot of people would like another £300m chucked at it but the definition of insanity is repeating a process and expecting a different result. Changing one man may well bring about improvement but just like changing players there is no guarantee as to how much.
What we can agree on is that improvement is needed and how it is achieved is out of our hands.”
If you take the basis of the team we have add in a proper experienced central defender and as Ive said before, replace the players that we hoped Falcao and Di Maria would be (rather than what they were) and have it overseen by Jose Mourinho and I would be very confident going into next season.
Originally Posted by Eddie hunter:
“If you take the basis of the team we have add in a proper experienced central defender and as Ive said before, replace the players that we hoped Falcao and Di Maria would be (rather than what they were) and have it overseen by Jose Mourinho and I would be very confident going into next season.”
“If you take the basis of the team we have add in a proper experienced central defender and as Ive said before, replace the players that we hoped Falcao and Di Maria would be (rather than what they were) and have it overseen by Jose Mourinho and I would be very confident going into next season.”
We need to replace more than just Falcao, Di Maria and a centre-back, a central midfield option to replace the aging Carrick is needed at the very least.
If we could do that, and have a manager that we could trust, (if which I am not sure we could with José), then that would be an improvement on what we currently have at our disposal.
We can't keep making 5 or 6 signings every summer. It does nothing for team spirit, cohesion or continuity.
Personally speaking I'm sick of this season and just want it to end. Make some changes in the summer and start moving forward again.
I think I would happily take Peppa Pig as manager over the summer and it would be an improvement!
Talking seriously though. Carrick is finished as a big game player. He needs a shield in front of him and he cannot deal with the pressing of other teams.
Imo, Blind is the replacement for Carrick. He's been exposed with his lack of pace this season but he has a quick brain and quick feet. He can slot back into MF for me.
Central defender is an absolute must and I think it would be fair to say we will need a new Goalie. I'd be astounded if Real Madrid don't snap De Gea up by end of July.
Probably need a striker too.
Actually think Schneiderlin can come good under different guidance, and we still have some real prospects in Martial and Rashford, as well as the plethora of great Left Backs we seem to have all of a sudden!
The squad can't seriously all be as crap as they have shown this season. Spending another stupid amount of money isn't the answer and really doesn't bring stability.
You only have to look at a very average Liverpool squad's resurgence under Klopp to have some kind of hope we can get there.
Talking seriously though. Carrick is finished as a big game player. He needs a shield in front of him and he cannot deal with the pressing of other teams.
Imo, Blind is the replacement for Carrick. He's been exposed with his lack of pace this season but he has a quick brain and quick feet. He can slot back into MF for me.
Central defender is an absolute must and I think it would be fair to say we will need a new Goalie. I'd be astounded if Real Madrid don't snap De Gea up by end of July.
Probably need a striker too.
Actually think Schneiderlin can come good under different guidance, and we still have some real prospects in Martial and Rashford, as well as the plethora of great Left Backs we seem to have all of a sudden!
The squad can't seriously all be as crap as they have shown this season. Spending another stupid amount of money isn't the answer and really doesn't bring stability.
You only have to look at a very average Liverpool squad's resurgence under Klopp to have some kind of hope we can get there.
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