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Man United Supporters Thread (Part 50)


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Old 08-11-2016, 10:56
mikeyddd
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I'm no mathematician, and I'm guessing if you look at things from a glass half full perspective, It's possible to get 114 points. So any points not gained are points lost. But the reality is everyone, but one it seems, would take into account the balance of probabilities when assessing the outcome of a match. Even with hindsight most reasonable people would say getting a point at Anfield was a god result.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:07
batdude_uk1
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I'm no mathematician, and I'm guessing if you look at things from a glass half full perspective, It's possible to get 114 points. So any points not gained are points lost. But the reality is everyone, but one it seems, would take into account the balance of probabilities when assessing the outcome of a match. Even with hindsight most reasonable people would say getting a point at Anfield was a god result.
But everything needs to be put into a wider context, a point away at Anfield on its own, yes a good result, a point when you are five, six or so points behind the other teams competing for a top four place, suddenly it doesn't look as good anymore, does it?

We need to be closing the gap to the teams above us, so drawing with them, and keeping the gap the same, doesn't really achieve that does it?
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:07
Jim De Ville
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The two games I am disappointed with are Stoke and Burnley because we battered them both especially Burnley. Liverpool was a good result and considering the grief we got for this so called negative approach one point was decent, especially when you consider how others have fared. I'm surprised other teams are so open going in against Liverpool tbh, they should follow our approach especially at Anfield.

Chelsea and Watford were just bad days all round.
Pretty much sums it up, for me.

You could argue that we 'dropped points' against Watford, but only because we should realistically expect to get something from that game, not because we actually deserved to.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:10
batdude_uk1
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Pretty much sums it up, for me.

You could argue that we 'dropped points' against Watford, but only because we should realistically expect to get something from that game, not because we actually deserved to.
In the games against Watford, and Chelsea, we deserved to get beat, and we did fair and square, but that doesn't mean that they were not opportunities to get three points, which we didn't end up doing, hence, we dropped points in those games, which was very disappointing.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:21
Jim De Ville
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In the games against Watford, and Chelsea, we deserved to get beat, and we did fair and square, but that doesn't mean that they were not opportunities to get three points, which we didn't end up doing, hence, we dropped points in those games, which was very disappointing.
So, what you're effectively saying is that you're miffed whenever we don't win.

No need to keep repeating it to others who can see that a point at Anfield is a good point, especially considering the respective form of both teams.

Don't boil over with rage, but I'd take a point in the Arsenal game, right now. Of course, I'd rather win, but they're better than us.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:58
Jamesp84
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By the logic being displayed, Burnley and Stoke would count draws at Old Trafford as 'dropped points'.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:11
batdude_uk1
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So, what you're effectively saying is that you're miffed whenever we don't win.

No need to keep repeating it to others who can see that a point at Anfield is a good point, especially considering the respective form of both teams.

Don't boil over with rage, but I'd take a point in the Arsenal game, right now. Of course, I'd rather win, but they're better than us.
Why would I boil over with rage?

A draw a home to a team that we need to close the gap against, would be frustrating to say the least, yes they are on a good bit of form at the present time, but we do have a fairly decent home record against them.

As for the Liverpool game, as I have said, on its own, a draw there was a good result, but when put into a wider perspective/context, of where we currently are in the league, and where we would like to be, then surely you can see that it doesn't seem all that good or helpful to our cause??

By the logic being displayed, Burnley and Stoke would count draws at Old Trafford as 'dropped points'.
It depends on their respective aims and ambitions for the season as a whole, for them they probably (and not being a fan of either side, I am very hesitant to speak on behalf of them) do see a draw at ourselves as a good point.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:18
Jim De Ville
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As for the Liverpool game, as I have said, on its own, a draw there was a good result, but when put into a wider perspective/context, of where we currently are in the league, and where we would like to be, then surely you can see that it doesn't seem all that good or helpful to our cause??
Yes, I fully understand your point, just as I did the first several times that you made it.

I just don't agree. Football isn't that basic. A point at Anfield is much better than getting shellacked 4-0 at Chelsea, so yes, it was 'good or helpful to our cause', because we got one point rather than none.

Considering the form of both sides, a United win would have been the most surprising outcome. Therefore, a point was a good result, regardless of the 'context' of our league position.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:30
batdude_uk1
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Yes, I fully understand your point, just as I did the first several times that you made it.

I just don't agree. Football isn't that basic. A point at Anfield is much better than getting shellacked 4-0 at Chelsea, so yes, it was 'good or helpful to our cause', because we got one point rather than none.

Considering the form of both sides, a United win would have been the most surprising outcome. Therefore, a point was a good result, regardless of the 'context' of our league position.
I understand your point as well, but my point is not as basic as looking at one result in isolation, how can looking at something like the season as a whole so far, be basic, but looking at one result, and judging things purely on that one result not be basic??

We just seem to coming at this from two different perspectives, no problem, that is the beauty of having discussions, people have different views on a situation, and I welcome that.

Hopefully we can after the international break beat Arsenal, and climb up the league table further, (or at least close the gap some more, as I don't think even with a win, we can get fifth at this stage), a draw would be deflating, and a defeat would be very unwelcome, and would allow other sides to continue to put huge pressure on us.
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Old 08-11-2016, 13:16
TheMunch
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The fact of the matter is, we didn't win this match, hence just like against Burnley, Watford, Stoke, and Chelsea, we dropped points.

No matter how we set up, if we do not win a match, then how can it be anything other than drooped points? Points that are proving to have been costly even at this early stage of the season, as we are currently a bit behind the teams in the top four places as it is, due to these dropped points.
Then your definition of "dropped points" must be different to everyone else.

By your logic, every point not gained is a point dropped. Liverpool dropped three points against Burnley. Liverpool also dropped two points against Spurs and your lot.

By dropping points it means you should have got more out of the game, based on your performance and how you go into the game. You can't play for a draw then claim to drop two points. That's like a team aiming for 4th, getting it, and then saying they dropped three places.

You gain a point if you earn a point through good defending, or setting the team up well to avoid conceding. You did that at Anfield, hence the draw. You did not seem interested in winning, Mourinho was always going to setup to not lose, with anything else a bonus. If he sneaks a win, great, but it's not important, as long as he doesn't lose that game. He went out for a draw, and the team earned the draw. They earned the point they intended to get from the game.

To say you dropped two points implies you were the better team, or you were unfortunate to not win. You weren't even the favourites, so you can't even say you were expected to win and failed to meet expectations.
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Old 08-11-2016, 13:25
Jim De Ville
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You gain a point if you earn a point through good defending, or setting the team up well to avoid conceding. You did that at Anfield, hence the draw. You did not seem interested in winning, Mourinho was always going to setup to not lose, with anything else a bonus. If he sneaks a win, great, but it's not important, as long as he doesn't lose that game. He went out for a draw, and the team earned the draw. They earned the point they intended to get from the game.
Not really true.

United were the better team for 45-60 minutes, and were at least as attacking as Liverpool. I don't think that it's fair to say that we 'did not seem interested in winning'.

You came at us in the last half an hour, and I'd concede that at that point, we were looking for the draw.
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Old 08-11-2016, 14:21
NorthernNinny
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Not really true.

United were the better team for 45-60 minutes, and were at least as attacking as Liverpool. I don't think that it's fair to say that we 'did not seem interested in winning'.

You came at us in the last half an hour, and I'd concede that at that point, we were looking for the draw.
If you'd heard the press reaction afterwards though it was as if we'd parked the bus and were happy with a point and made no attempt to try and win the game.

Liverpool were just as cagey as us from the off.
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Old 08-11-2016, 14:38
batdude_uk1
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Then your definition of "dropped points" must be different to everyone else.

By your logic, every point not gained is a point dropped. Liverpool dropped three points against Burnley. Liverpool also dropped two points against Spurs and your lot.

By dropping points it means you should have got more out of the game, based on your performance and how you go into the game. You can't play for a draw then claim to drop two points. That's like a team aiming for 4th, getting it, and then saying they dropped three places.

You gain a point if you earn a point through good defending, or setting the team up well to avoid conceding. You did that at Anfield, hence the draw. You did not seem interested in winning, Mourinho was always going to setup to not lose, with anything else a bonus. If he sneaks a win, great, but it's not important, as long as he doesn't lose that game. He went out for a draw, and the team earned the draw. They earned the point they intended to get from the game.

To say you dropped two points implies you were the better team, or you were unfortunate to not win. You weren't even the favourites, so you can't even say you were expected to win and failed to meet expectations.
Saying that a team dropped points, in this case my own, implies just that, that we didn't win the game, it doesn't mean we were the better side, or the poorer side, just that we simply didn't end up getting the three points at full time.

Making judgements on what sort of match it was, who had more attacks, etc, is for the actual analysis.
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Old 08-11-2016, 14:41
batdude_uk1
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If you'd heard the press reaction afterwards though it was as if we'd parked the bus and were happy with a point and made no attempt to try and win the game.

Liverpool were just as cagey as us from the off.
I fully agree, if we were to get criticism for that match, then Liverpool deserved just as much, if not more, since they were the home team, but since the media have fallen head over heals for Klopp that was never going to be the case.
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Old 08-11-2016, 16:22
TheMunch
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Saying that a team dropped points, in this case my own, implies just that, that we didn't win the game, it doesn't mean we were the better side, or the poorer side, just that we simply didn't end up getting the three points at full time.

Making judgements on what sort of match it was, who had more attacks, etc, is for the actual analysis.
That's not what people mean when they say you drop two points vs earned a point. Every point you don't earn is a dropped point, that's just painfully obvious. That's not the point being made.

By your logic, Liverpool also dropped two points against you. Stoke dropped two points against you. Swansea just dropped three points against you.

You're taking the term "dropped points" too literally. In a draw, dropped points implies you were the better team and were unfortunate to not get all three. A point earned is a hard fought draw, including if you weren't the favourite. If West Brom get a draw against Arsenal they've earned a point, they didn't drop two.

Not really true.

United were the better team for 45-60 minutes, and were at least as attacking as Liverpool. I don't think that it's fair to say that we 'did not seem interested in winning'.

You came at us in the last half an hour, and I'd concede that at that point, we were looking for the draw.
I agree that you started out attacking. You pressed us, like Swansea did in Liverpool's previous game, and like Swansea it was working. But unlike Swansea we weren't able to come back into the game and get a win. I just meant that with Mourinho being the defensive coach he is, he'd have gone into that game wanting to not lose, as people said before the game. If he came for the draw, while trying to get a win if possible, then ended up with a draw, he got what he wanted. He earned the draw. If you intend to get at least a point, and you get a point, then you earned the point you set out to get, you didn't "drop" the two "bonus points", for lack of a better phrase.

I'd say we came at you more when you stopped pressing us, and became more defensive, which sounds obvious because that tends to happen when a team switches to a more defensive tactic.
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Old 08-11-2016, 16:57
batdude_uk1
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That's not what people mean when they say you drop two points vs earned a point. Every point you don't earn is a dropped point, that's just painfully obvious. That's not the point being made.

By your logic, Liverpool also dropped two points against you. Stoke dropped two points against you. Swansea just dropped three points against you.

You're taking the term "dropped points" too literally. In a draw, dropped points implies you were the better team and were unfortunate to not get all three. A point earned is a hard fought draw, including if you weren't the favourite. If West Brom get a draw against Arsenal they've earned a point, they didn't drop two.



I agree that you started out attacking. You pressed us, like Swansea did in Liverpool's previous game, and like Swansea it was working. But unlike Swansea we weren't able to come back into the game and get a win. I just meant that with Mourinho being the defensive coach he is, he'd have gone into that game wanting to not lose, as people said before the game. If he came for the draw, while trying to get a win if possible, then ended up with a draw, he got what he wanted. He earned the draw. If you intend to get at least a point, and you get a point, then you earned the point you set out to get, you didn't "drop" the two "bonus points", for lack of a better phrase.

I'd say we came at you more when you stopped pressing us, and became more defensive, which sounds obvious because that tends to happen when a team switches to a more defensive tactic.
Dropped points is just that points dropped from the maximum available (in this case three), talking about who played well, who attacked more, or who had more shots etc, is for debate later on.
If you feel Liverpool dropped two points against us, then I would agree with you there, as they did, as neither side got the maximum three points.

It is up to the individual to decide what they think about the match, who deserved the points etc, but when a team doesn't win, then it is points dropped, I don't quite know how else to say it.
A hard fought draw is different, as you are talking about how well a team has played within the actual construct of the term, whereas dropped points, is just that, talking about the maths of the situation.

For your West Brom and Arsenal example, if West Brom were to get a draw, then in the wider context, then it would be a good point for them (again I don't wish to come across as trying to speak for their fans), but if for example, in our upcoming match against Arsenal, we were to draw, then it would be two points dropped, as we have (I would hope, with respect to West Brom) higher expectations over the season as a whole.

Games can be looked at as one offs, hence why I said previously that a point at Anfield on its own was good, but in terms of the league as it stands currently, well it wasn't what was needed or what we wanted, so hence why it was two points dropped, in the wider context of the season.

As for the Liverpool match itself, what do you mean when you say Jose got what he wanted out of the match?? If you asked him, would he have wanted a draw or a win, I would definitely say that he would have wanted the win more so than a draw, and even more so than a defeat.
So I disagree with your thinking that we only wanted the draw and nothing else, we wanted the victory, and we almost got it.
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Old 08-11-2016, 17:08
TheMunch
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Dropped points is just that points dropped from the maximum available (in this case three), talking about who played well, who attacked more, or who had more shots etc, is for debate later on.
If you feel Liverpool dropped two points against us, then I would agree with you there, as they did, as neither side got the maximum three points.
Yes, you keep saying this. But you keep missing the point of what people mean when they say points dropped vs points earned. Again, you are taking it too literally. Any point not gained is a point dropped, that's obvious. That's not what people mean. Teams playing well, unfortunate to not win IS important in this context because it is used when people decide if a team earned a point or dropped two. In the game against Liverpool you earned a point, in another game you may have dropped two.

I don't know how much clearer I can make myself. It's just a phrase used to determine if a team played well in a draw, or how the draw felt afterwards. Some feel like you gained a point, others feel like you dropped two. In the literal sense, every draw is both of those things, but the term isn't to be taken so literally.

As for the Liverpool match itself, what do you mean when you say Jose got what he wanted out of the match?? If you asked him, would he have wanted a draw or a win, I would definitely say that he would have wanted the win more so than a draw, and even more so than a defeat.
So I disagree with your thinking that we only wanted the draw and nothing else, we wanted the victory, and we almost got it.
Do we really have to do this? We went over this before the game itself, several times. I'll only be repeating yourself, only for you to be saying the same things you said the last time anyone dared to suggest getting a draw.

I'll try again...

I meant Mourinho got what he wanted because he wanted to not lose. If Mourinho goes away to a big side, and goes with a defensive approach, then he goes to not lose, because he would take a point. He does that with the aim of stopping the other team from playing, and get a draw. If he wins it's a bonus, and he'll try to win if he can. Again, painfully obvious.

If you ask anyone if they'd want one or three points they'll say three points. Why do you insist on making me say painfully obvious statements?

That's irrelevant. Everyone wants to win all the time, but we don't always get to win. If he felt going into a match to get a draw was the practical approach, then he will, and he does, he does it a lot, that's what Mourinho is famous for. Liverpool were in form, you were not, and Liverpool were at home. He had to be more careful than he would against someone like Sunderland. He will have gone into the game looking to not lose.

A draw would have been the minimum, the target. And in achieving that he gained the point he wanted.


I really can't be bothered going over this with you for the hundredth time, only for you to disagree with anything I say and take things too literally, or look at the painfully obvious things like 3 points is better than 1.
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Old 08-11-2016, 17:14
Jim De Ville
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If you asked him, would he have wanted a draw or a win, I would definitely say that he would have wanted the win more so than a draw, and even more so than a defeat.
Hmm, you sure about this?

I'm not entirely convinced that Mourinho would have preferred a win over a defeat. I could be wrong, but it's a big call.
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Old 08-11-2016, 17:48
Nova21
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This latest one is ridiculous... batdude at his worst (sorry batdude). Munch stop responding to this one! (That's not an order)!
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Old 08-11-2016, 17:50
TheMunch
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Trust me, I already considered that as soon as I submitted my post.

When someone's trying to argue 3 points is better than 1, and a win is preferable to a draw or a defeat I don't think there's much more to say.
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Old 08-11-2016, 18:12
toastie15
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Felliani has a calf strain and has returned to MUFC
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Old 08-11-2016, 18:55
mikeyddd
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Maybe try looking at things a different way, regarding dropped point. Forget United or liverpool and maybe look at things from a Sunderland or other relegation threatened club. Their fans, manager and even players will no doubt be looking at the next few games and totting up what they expect to get based on their form and that of the opposition. If they don't achieve that total they will rightly consider that to be dropped points.
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Old 08-11-2016, 19:23
shubstar
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Is anyone else slightly worried by this Mourinho/Smalling/Shaw "saga"?

It's probably nothing and just the media blowing things out of proportion, but I keep thinking back to last season and something similar with Hazard. I remember then a lot of Chelsea fans backing (initially anyway) Mourinho when he criticised Hazard for basically substituting himself in a game due to an injury. The consensus was that his heart wasn't really in the club, "downed tools", etc. Then it happened to a few others and well, we know how that ended. But this season, Hazard seems happy and is performing again and everyone loves him again and it's all about the toxic atmosphere Mourinho had created.

I bring this up because the timing of Mourinho's moan really bugged me. We had just won our first league game in a while and played fairly well, and he chose that moment to publicly criticise his own players. His points may be legitimate (we'll never know), but why do it so publicly? Call the players into your office and give them a dress down - no issues with that. But now fans are beginning to question the players' mentality and toughness and it just leaves a bitter taste.
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Old 08-11-2016, 20:11
NorthernNinny
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Is anyone else slightly worried by this Mourinho/Smalling/Shaw "saga"?

It's probably nothing and just the media blowing things out of proportion, but I keep thinking back to last season and something similar with Hazard. I remember then a lot of Chelsea fans backing (initially anyway) Mourinho when he criticised Hazard for basically substituting himself in a game due to an injury. The consensus was that his heart wasn't really in the club, "downed tools", etc. Then it happened to a few others and well, we know how that ended. But this season, Hazard seems happy and is performing again and everyone loves him again and it's all about the toxic atmosphere Mourinho had created.

I bring this up because the timing of Mourinho's moan really bugged me. We had just won our first league game in a while and played fairly well, and he chose that moment to publicly criticise his own players. His points may be legitimate (we'll never know), but why do it so publicly? Call the players into your office and give them a dress down - no issues with that. But now fans are beginning to question the players' mentality and toughness and it just leaves a bitter taste.
We aren't privvy to what goes on behind the scenes. Maybe there have been a number of incidences where Jose has felt certain players aren't giving their all or just don't fancy it? When you consider we have both Bailly and Valencia out for a few weeks and then a couple of defensive players tell the manager they don't feel they can play despite being regarded as fit in what could be a tricky away game he may have lost his patience.

There were others on that pitch who could have used the same argument but didn't, Jones and Pogba being two examples.

Chelsea players (not all mind) seemed to down tools last season. Even when Jose was sacked they weren't entirely convincing when Hiddink turned up, the Spurs game apart.
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Old 08-11-2016, 20:21
Tribec
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His points may be legitimate (we'll never know), but why do it so publicly? Call the players into your office and give them a dress down - no issues with that. But now fans are beginning to question the players' mentality and toughness and it just leaves a bitter taste.
What if the comments now mean those two start to fight back, to prove to the fans who have stuck by them through many an injury that Jose is wrong, that they will run through brick walls for this club? Neither have a good record with injuries, be it due to bad tackles or just pulls and strains. Also Shaw on arriving was called out by LVG, so something behind his fitness for sure.

Fergie called players out in public when he felt he needed too, it can help in certain cases.
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