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Man United Supporters Thread (Part 50) |
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#1376 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
We should aspire to be the very best, I have no issues with that, but that shouldn't mean we should just give up on the young players, especially if they have shown promise and a talent at this level.
If they have been given a chance, and they have not justified themselves (like say Keane or Powell), then fine bring in new players ahead of them, I have no problem with that, I am not asking for players to be played if they re not good enough, that would be madness. Youngsters can only become experienced by playing games, and that does not seem to be the case with Jose, as they just seem to rot away when he is in charge of a club, and that does worry me. Yes we have been very very poor this season, and we have been way below the standards that we should expect of any season, so of course there will be some personal changes, that is what tends to happen when you underperform to such a degree as we have. The times that we have played the younger players, surprisingly (or not depending on your view) we have seemed to have performed better, which is a plus point at the very least, and one that should go in their favour. At this level you dont get a chance to both win and develop at the same time because the two things dont go hand in hand in the modern game. |
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#1377 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
At Real Madrid and Chelsea you don't have time to focus on youth players. You need instant results at those clubs. You could win the Premier League and be sacked a few months later. Like he was. Chelsea aren't really a club for bringing in youth, and that's not a Mourinho thing.
So any new manager coming in will have to adapt to us, rather than the other way around, we have a proud history (what is the record about always having a youth player in a match day squad, dating back to 1937 I think it is) in this area, and I would not want that to change. As I say, if Jose comes in, and does give them a chance, then that will be one of my concerns eased, and I will be pleased with that. |
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#1378 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
How many young players do we bring through? How many would be playing right now if everything had worked out for Van Gaal? None. We haven't done it for years.
At this level you dont get a chance to both win and develop at the same time because the two things dont go hand in hand in the modern game. How many players we bring through depends on the standard of player, there is no hard and fast rule here, if they are good enough, then they should deserve a chance, if they are not, then we shouldn't play them. Rashford got very luck due to the circumstances (players ahead of him in a perceived pecking order were either out on loan or injured), but he has taken his chance, and has now moved up that pecking order dramatically, and that is great credit to him. |
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#1379 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
It not being a Mourinho thing, is what does worry me in that area, I am one that does like to see our youth players given a chance, I am sorry but that will not change, that will always be my opinion.
So any new manager coming in will have to adapt to us, rather than the other way around, we have a proud history (what is the record about always having a youth player in a match day squad, dating back to 1937 I think it is) in this area, and I would not want that to change. As I say, if Jose comes in, and does give them a chance, then that will be one of my concerns eased, and I will be pleased with that. Chelsea aren't a known for bringing up young, promising players, or Real Madrid. By not being a Mourinho thing I mean that's not just down to Mourinho, it's not just Mourinho, it's more of a trait of those two clubs. Chelsea and Real Madrid don't tend to concentrate on young players, and they are both not known for giving their managers a lot of time. Mourinho would never have had the time at either Real Madrid or Chelsea to focus on young players. He had to look at the best ways to win things as soon as he could. He won the league, then a few months into the new season he's sacked. Where's the room to care about kids? |
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#1380 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
You misinterpreted what I said, then replied to something I didn't say.
Chelsea aren't a known for bringing up young, promising players, or Real Madrid. By not being a Mourinho thing I mean that's not just down to Mourinho, it's not just Mourinho, it's more of a trait of those two clubs. Chelsea and Real Madrid don't tend to concentrate on young players, and they are both not known for giving their managers a lot of time. Mourinho would never have had the time at either Real Madrid or Chelsea to focus on young players. He had to look at the best ways to win things as soon as he could. He won the league, then a few months into the new season he's sacked. Where's the room to care about kids? I understand your point, and if he does end up joining us, (that is still very much up in the air) I hope that he adapts to us, and what we have a proud history in doing (giving youth players a chance). |
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#1381 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Haven't heard a single person stand up for Van Gaal by saying "He's now bringing through the youngsters, maybe we should let him continue to develop them". Its simply not an issue because the bottom line is results not youngsters.
Thats just the way it is. |
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#1382 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,095
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Quote:
It not being a Mourinho thing, is what does worry me in that area, I am one that does like to see our youth players given a chance, I am sorry but that will not change, that will always be my opinion.
So any new manager coming in will have to adapt to us, rather than the other way around, we have a proud history (what is the record about always having a youth player in a match day squad, dating back to 1937 I think it is) in this area, and I would not want that to change. As I say, if Jose comes in, and does give them a chance, then that will be one of my concerns eased, and I will be pleased with that. If they're good enough they'll be in with a shot. Van Gaal has introduced quite a few young players but the injuries gave him the reason to do so, I think it's more a case of giving them their debuts rather than anything more long term than that. It's nice to see some of our ex academy players doing well but it doesn't really do us any favours other than possibly a small fee for moving them on. How many of our debutants from last season have got game time this season? Even Wilson got sent out on loan when it was obvious we were short of forwards. Rashford got a game because there was no bugger else, which turned out to be very fortuitous for him. |
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#1383 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
Yes he "done it for years", we developed Fletcher (Darren rather than Asheley so far), Welbeck, O'Shea, Brown, Cleverley, Evans, and Lingard who have made significant contributions to the first team in recent seasons.
The common denominator they all share is that they were the players that took the most stick and were consistently deemed to be the players who weren't good enough to be in the team. Fletcher O'Shea Brown and Evans is going back years, Cleverly and Welbeck were nowhere near good enough. Fletcher - 13 years ago Brown - 19 years ago O'Shea - 16 years ago Evans - 10 years ago |
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#1384 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
Haven't heard a single person stand up for Van Gaal by saying "He's now bringing through the youngsters, maybe we should let him continue to develop them". Its simply not an issue because the bottom line is results not youngsters.
Thats just the way it is. If we had been really unlucky and performed well for the vast majority of this season, would people be more sympathetic towards LvG, I think that they would be (especially when taking into account the injury situation). The fact that for a while (was it two months) we didn't score a single home goal, or something bizarre like that goes against LvG. Yes his hand has been somewhat forced due to the injuries into playing the youngster, however he could have easily played Martial up front and not played Rashford at all in recent matches, but credit to him, he has not done that, and he has given him a chance in his favoured position. |
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#1385 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Glasgow / Cambridge
Posts: 3,984
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Quote:
The bottom line, is performences as well as results.
If we had been really unlucky and performed well for the vast majority of this season, would people be more sympathetic towards LvG, I think that they would be (especially when taking into account the injury situation). The fact that for a while (was it two months) we didn't score a single home goal, or something bizarre like that goes against LvG. Yes his hand has been somewhat forced due to the injuries into playing the youngster, however he could have easily played Martial up front and not played Rashford at all in recent matches, but credit to him, he has not done that, and he has given him a chance in his favoured position. Results are the bottom line. |
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#1386 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
The only issue I have with giving youth a chance is that as we've seen some are simply not good enough and shouldn't be padding out the squad at the expense of better players.
If they're good enough they'll be in with a shot. Van Gaal has introduced quite a few young players but the injuries gave him the reason to do so, I think it's more a case of giving them their debuts rather than anything more long term than that. It's nice to see some of our ex academy players doing well but it doesn't really do us any favours other than possibly a small fee for moving them on. How many of our debutants from last season have got game time this season? Even Wilson got sent out on loan when it was obvious we were short of forwards. Rashford got a game because there was no bugger else, which turned out to be very fortuitous for him. I just hope that if they are good enough, then they will be in with a shot, continues, I am just concerned that might not be the case with Jose, I would love to be proved wrong, that would be fantastic, and would greatly ease my concerns over him. Wilson going on loan when we at the time only really had Rooney did seem a tad strange I will agree with you there, and I couldn't really understand it, as Rashford was not really in the picture, as Powell and Keane were still seemingly ahead of him. It has eventually seemingly worked out for us and Rashford, and hopefully that continues next season, and his development is not stunted by lack of game time. Quote:
Thanks for pointing out it was Darren we developed. I wouldn't have know that.
The common denominator they all share is that they were the players that took the most stick and were consistently deemed to be the players who weren't good enough to be in the team. Fletcher O'Shea Brown and Evans is going back years, Cleverly and Welbeck were nowhere near good enough. Fletcher - 13 years ago Brown - 19 years ago O'Shea - 16 years ago Evans - 10 years ago Mensah, and Varela have shown glimpses of what they can do this season, and whilst there is still a lot more that they need to develop upon, there are solid building blocks there for example. Same for Rashford and Jackson, if we just block their paths, it would be a shame, but then it would be down to them to try and force their way back into the team, and I would hope that they would be allowed the chance to do so, and as I say that is one element that does worry me in terms of Jose. If that changes, and he gives them a fair chance, and they continue to do well, then I would be very happy indeed, and would have no issues in saying so. |
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#1387 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
Absolute bollocks. If we were tenth and playing fancy football we'd be up in arms about our position. If we were top and playing boring football, no one would give a damn in the short term - we'd be celebrating our return to the top and perhaps mentioning we'd like to progress on to more attractive football next season.
Results are the bottom line. Winning games is what we all would like to see happen, and is always (obviously) a good thing, but the performances do come under scrutiny, would we be happy to win matches more often like the Everton one, where the goal was about the only exciting thing all match? If we were winning games by a bigger scoreline, and playing better, the fans and people in general, would not as much on the back of LvG as they currently are. |
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#1388 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,095
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Quote:
The bottom line, is performences as well as results.
If we had been really unlucky and performed well for the vast majority of this season, would people be more sympathetic towards LvG, I think that they would be (especially when taking into account the injury situation). The fact that for a while (was it two months) we didn't score a single home goal, or something bizarre like that goes against LvG. Yes his hand has been somewhat forced due to the injuries into playing the youngster, however he could have easily played Martial up front and not played Rashford at all in recent matches, but credit to him, he has not done that, and he has given him a chance in his favoured position. Slow, risk averse mind numbing football. How many goals have we scored in the first half of our games at Old Trafford. How many 0-0 results?. No visible progress from last season Culling the squad without adequate replacements Giving youth a chance is the last ace in his pack. I doubt Varela will get much of a sniff now Valencia is back. |
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#1389 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Glasgow / Cambridge
Posts: 3,984
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Quote:
The thing is though, eventually we would like to see more attractive football, so performances to match the results (so say for example a 2-0 win with about ten shots on target, rather than two shots on target).
Winning games is what we all would like to see happen, and is always (obviously) a good thing, but the performances do come under scrutiny, would we be happy to win matches more often like the Everton one, where the goal was about the only exciting thing all match? If we were winning games by a bigger scoreline, and playing better, the fans and people in general, would not as much on the back of LvG as they currently are. But the results come first, especially for our club in the position we're in right now, we need to win a trophy post-Fergie and I'm not all that fussed how we do it. |
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#1390 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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If you were Jose Mourinho or anyone else and you have been handed the United job with £200m to spend what are you thinking?
"Hmm, I think I will spend the next couple of years developing youngsters" or "Right I have £200m and very little time, I need to spend" There is no time and no manager will be given time to "bring through" youngsters. Its simply not possible in our situation. We need to win something and do it quite quickly. We sacked Moyes after less than a year and Van Gaal (if he goes) inside two so anyone coming in knows he doesn't have time. |
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#1391 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Glasgow / Cambridge
Posts: 3,984
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Quote:
i wouldn't give him any credit whatsoever.
Slow, risk averse mind numbing football. How many goals have we scored in the first half of our games at Old Trafford. How many 0-0 results?. No visible progress from last season Culling the squad without adequate replacements Giving youth a chance is the last ace in his pack. I doubt Varela will get much of a sniff now Valencia is back. |
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#1392 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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Quote:
If you were Jose Mourinho or anyone else and you have been handed the United job with £200m to spend what are you thinking?
"Hmm, I think I will spend the next couple of years developing youngsters" or "Right I have £200m and very little time, I need to spend" There is no time and no manager will be given time to "bring through" youngsters. Its simply not possible in our situation. We need to win something and do it quite quickly. We sacked Moyes after less than a year and Van Gaal (if he goes) inside two so anyone coming in knows he doesn't have time. |
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#1393 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Glasgow / Cambridge
Posts: 3,984
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I just find talk of prioritising promoting youth, getting a manager who is going to stay a decade, playing with wingers etc just pointless and a bit deluded. It's the kind of talk that is fine when you're bossing the league but our first ambition is surely to get back to being competitive. The aforementioned dreams we might have of 'the United way' may come as a product of that but they're not the primary concerns.
There are half a dozen sides who will fancy their chances of winning the league next season and even more who will consider themselves in with a shot of making the CL spots. No one coming into this job now is going to look at this situation and think 'f**k spending money, I'm going to play Johnny Junior and his pals'. |
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#1394 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
I just find talk of prioritising promoting youth, getting a manager who is going to stay a decade, playing with wingers etc just pointless and a bit deluded. It's the kind of talk that is fine when you're bossing the league but our first ambition is surely to get back to being competitive. The aforementioned dreams we might have of 'the United way' may come as a product of that but they're not the primary concerns.
There are half a dozen sides who will fancy their chances of winning the league next season and even more who will consider themselves in with a shot of making the CL spots. No one coming into this job now is going to look at this situation and think 'f**k spending money, I'm going to play Johnny Junior and his pals'. The fact that some of these guys spent their entire careers with us and Giggs played for 20 years is what gives us this "Youth product in the first team squad" stat rather than a constant flow of talent coming through. |
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#1395 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
Which is why I said that there would be discussion about the performances and a hope that we would play more attractive football in time.
But the results come first, especially for our club in the position we're in right now, we need to win a trophy post-Fergie and I'm not all that fussed how we do it. Results are key in deciding a managers future of course they, are the worse that they are, the higher the likelihood of getting the sack, that is just commonsense. Performances also also important in looking at a season as whole, if for example we were playing better than we currently are, but were in a similar position league wise, would people look at the situation in a different way, I think that they would. It is because we have had so many 0-0's, and uninspired games that people have this view of LvG that they do, even the Everton win, was nothing to get excited about, as the goal was practically the only thing that happened all match. |
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#1396 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
If you were Jose Mourinho or anyone else and you have been handed the United job with £200m to spend what are you thinking?
"Hmm, I think I will spend the next couple of years developing youngsters" or "Right I have £200m and very little time, I need to spend" There is no time and no manager will be given time to "bring through" youngsters. Its simply not possible in our situation. We need to win something and do it quite quickly. We sacked Moyes after less than a year and Van Gaal (if he goes) inside two so anyone coming in knows he doesn't have time. The issue is giving youth players a fair shake of things, and not doing too much to harm their development, would we want a very talented player to leave us, due to not enough chances and to turn out very good elsewhere, when we knew that they were talented all along, but the manager just wouldn't give them a chance? Anyone coming in as manager should know that we should be fighting it out to win the biggest trophies around, and also that we have a proud history of developing our younger players, and if they are not willing or able to do both, then they should not be our manager. We should expect only the very highest of standards, and if any candidate cannot match them, then it should come as no shock to them when they are under severe pressure, and if they don't get the team to improve, then eventually they will no longer be employed by us. |
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#1397 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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And do you know who this manager would be?
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#1398 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
And do you know who this manager would be?
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#1399 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 6,975
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I am not the one who is tasked with doing so, so what my opinion might be as to who might be acceptable is irrelevant, and picking names out of thin air is a pointless thing to do, when no matter who I were to say, it would be picked apart.
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#1400 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Glasgow / Cambridge
Posts: 3,984
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Quote:
If we end up winning the FA Cup this season (a big ask seeing as the replay looks a very very tough game), that is that monkey off of our backs, so then we can move onto trying to up our performances from there.
Results are key in deciding a managers future of course they, are the worse that they are, the higher the likelihood of getting the sack, that is just commonsense. Performances also also important in looking at a season as whole, if for example we were playing better than we currently are, but were in a similar position league wise, would people look at the situation in a different way, I think that they would. It is because we have had so many 0-0's, and uninspired games that people have this view of LvG that they do, even the Everton win, was nothing to get excited about, as the goal was practically the only thing that happened all match. |
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