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Man United Supporters Thread (Part 50) |
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#2001 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
They can be used to prove it and they have. They were young players who he gave chances to, doesn't matter what you wish to use to discredit him, the fact is they were young players who he helped develop. Varane was 18, and he helped him become the player he is now, doesn't matter if Lens played him in their first team, he was 18, in the football world he was still a kid.
Otherwise you could argue someone like Lukaku wasn't a failure of his because he was already playing for Anderlecht when Chelsea bought him. Youth development is bringing them through the academy, and under 21's, then playing for the first team, that to me is what I personally view as bringing through a player or players. Would you view Origi for example in the same way of say Fowler or Owen, when both were playing for Liverpool? |
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#2002 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,095
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Quote:
Louis van Gaal: "We are in the race for the first four positions in the league and still in the FA Cup, so I'm very happy about that."
As you should be Louis, it's been a wonderful season... Maybe someone should ask him about this at the next press conference instead of banging on about whether he thinks his job is safe? |
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#2003 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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I think Sam Wallace is very good, and a lot better than the man he replaced at The Telegraph who thinks up a narrative and then bends the article around that narrative. But signing youngsters who are established first team players for multi millions of pounds, and those figures would be the equivalent of twice as much today, is not an example of a guy who develops youth.
The other examples in the article may well be, but those three are not. This is more a criticism of the slant of the journalism than mourinho and young players |
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#2004 |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,105
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I guess it all depends on how you view youth development, and what that means, in my eyes if you are already playing a teams first team, and then you buy them, that is not youth development as such (I guess there could be exceptions to this, as with any rule, such as say Freddy Adu playing for D.C. United at 14 years of age).
Youth development is bringing them through the academy, and under 21's, then playing for the first team, that to me is what I personally view as bringing through a player or players. Would you view Origi for example in the same way of say Fowler or Owen, when both were playing for Liverpool? Time to grasp the nettle and, if necessary, keep the Savlon handy. |
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#2005 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
I think Sam Wallace is very good, and a lot better than the man he replaced at The Telegraph who thinks up a narrative and then bends the article around that narrative. But signing youngsters who are established first team players for multi millions of pounds, and those figures would be the equivalent of twice as much today, is not an example of a guy who develops youth.
The other examples in the article may well be, but those three are not. This is more a criticism of the slant of the journalism than mourinho and young players Presumably we would now have to drop the current youngsters from the argument as they would already be at the club and playing in the first team when he arrived? |
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#2006 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
I genuinely don't understand where you are going with this. Three, if not entirely wasted, then certainly barren, joyless years after not appointing Mourinho, you seem in danger of wanting to repeat the mistake for similar reasons that were trotted out before, not least about Mourinho's character/personality and whether he has actually been present at the cutting of umbilical cords of young footballers. United need to start winning things, not little things, but big things, like league titles and European titles. Mourinho is the price worth paying to do that. And if he is just passing through for a couple of years, well that will give plenty of time to search for a replacement and for Giggs or whoever time to acquire some meaningful managerial experience. United should have been challenging for the title this year and nothing Van Gaal or anyone who supports him will change my mind about that.
Time to grasp the nettle and, if necessary, keep the Savlon handy. |
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#2007 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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Quote:
Ah so "giving young players a chance" has now been changed to "developing young players"?
Presumably we would now have to drop the current youngsters from the argument as they would already be at the club and playing in the first team when he arrived? I don't care what mourinho does with young players, I was criticising the article as evidence though. Will step away from this particular point now as I know you don't ever do so. |
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#2008 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 15,095
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Quote:
I genuinely don't understand where you are going with this. Three, if not entirely wasted, then certainly barren, joyless years after not appointing Mourinho, you seem in danger of wanting to repeat the mistake for similar reasons that were trotted out before, not least about Mourinho's character/personality and whether he has actually been present at the cutting of umbilical cords of young footballers. United need to start winning things, not little things, but big things, like league titles and European titles. Mourinho is the price worth paying to do that. And if he is just passing through for a couple of years, well that will give plenty of time to search for a replacement and for Giggs or whoever time to acquire some meaningful managerial experience. United should have been challenging for the title this year and nothing Van Gaal or anyone who supports him will change my mind about that.
Time to grasp the nettle and, if necessary, keep the Savlon handy. Fergie behaved like a right arse at times, it was a part of his character that I admired, similiar to Roy Keane. Utd fans have been referred to as arrogant in the past, we need a manager with bollocks,a decent track record of success and an air of arrogance about him. A bit of a machiavellian character if you like. |
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#2009 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,343
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To be fair, even if Mourinho had brought through 11 players all born within a freekick of Stamford Bridge, the argument would then move on to him not being a very nice man or something equally stupid.
It seems some have decided they don't want him here regardless of anything, and nothing will change their minds. |
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#2010 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
I think Sam Wallace is very good, and a lot better than the man he replaced at The Telegraph who thinks up a narrative and then bends the article around that narrative. But signing youngsters who are established first team players for multi millions of pounds, and those figures would be the equivalent of twice as much today, is not an example of a guy who develops youth.
The other examples in the article may well be, but those three are not. This is more a criticism of the slant of the journalism than mourinho and young players |
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#2011 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
I wasn't trying to start an argument... I thought the discussion on here was about developing youngsters who weren't yet first team players. Signing multi million pound young first team players does not negate the argument that someone doesn't promote youngsters or develop them.
I don't care what mourinho does with young players, I was criticising the article as evidence though. Will step away from this particular point now as I know you don't ever do so. If people are looking for "youth school player to first team superstar" style development then there aren't too many examples at the bigger clubs anymore. |
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#2012 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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I wasn't really aiming it at you particularly however if you are playing 18,19,20 year olds in your team regardless of how they came to be in your team Im not sure how that can suddenly be ignored when the accusation was initially "not giving young players a chance". No matter how good, any player at that age is still very much developing.
If people are looking for "youth school player to first team superstar" style development then there aren't too many examples at the bigger clubs anymore. |
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#2013 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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I just wish to say that I am in full agreement with your point of view, buying already established players for millions of pounds, is not developing young players, and is not a plus point in that area for any manager, be it José or anyone else.
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#2014 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
I wasn't really aiming it at you particularly however if you are playing 18,19,20 year olds in your team regardless of how they came to be in your team Im not sure how that can suddenly be ignored when the accusation was initially "not giving young players a chance". No matter how good, any player at that age is still very much developing.
If people are looking for "youth school player to first team superstar" style development then there aren't too many examples at the bigger clubs anymore. Zouma for example is very different to Rashford for example, both similar ages yes, but before Zouma went to Chelsea he had already played first team football, whereas Rashford prior to this season had not. If you wish to see Zouma or players in that sort of scenario, as a product of José's development, and a way of showing that he can nurture youth players, then that is up to you or anyone else, but I can only speak for myself, but that is not what I perceive as youth development, or bringing through the young players. |
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#2015 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
Giggs, Fowler, Owen, Rooney.... The only absolute top class ones from schoolboy to first team stars since I started watching football.
As off the top of my head those are some more that I would put in there. |
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#2016 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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#2017 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Quote:
Giggs, Fowler, Owen, Rooney.... The only absolute top class ones from schoolboy to first team stars since I started watching football.
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#2018 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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No Scholes, Becks, Gerrard, Lampard, or Ashley Cole?
As off the top of my head those are some more that I would put in there. |
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#2019 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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Quote:
No Scholes, Becks, Gerrard, Lampard, or Ashley Cole?
As off the top of my head those are some more that I would put in there. |
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#2020 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,401
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Admittedly my last point abiut those 4 is a slight tangent. There are of course other young players who have broken into premier league teams in the last 20 years.
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#2021 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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I said it doesn't happen any more you quote players from 20 years ago.
I guess it all depends on how you view when a player has broken through. |
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#2022 |
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,156
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Okay more recently Welbeck, Barkley, and to a degree Whilshire.
I guess it all depends on how you view when a player has broken through. None of these are the types of player we were talking about |
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#2023 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Welbeck was sold on because he wasn't good enough, Barkley is not playing at the very top level he is playing for a club where there is more leeway in terms of expectation and i'm not even going to comment on you mentioning Wilshere.
None of these are the types of player we were talking about A first team manager should have a responsibility to the future of the club to do so. |
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#2024 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,725
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Just seen that Herrera is apparently out injured. How the **** did Noble get away with that?
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#2025 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 483
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Name a time when a manager has refused to play someone good enough to play.
We might as well debate the subject of "should managers try to win?" arguing it is their duty to do so. |
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