Having recently rewatched the episode, I have to say, I can no longer watch the episode. To me, especially the second part, is too preachy. The underlying political messages about war and the speech ruin it for me now. I think in years down the line, people will cringe over this episode and, in particular, the scene in the war room with the buttons and boxes etc etc. I know it will have it's fans and, for me I was one of them when I first watched it first time swept away with the emotion of the scene but, I just don't feel it now. It feels hollow and done purely for the shock value and the political message. Now one of the episodes I will skip in the future
Can't watch The Zygon Invasion anymore
Originally Posted by lylonic_x:
“Having recently rewatched the episode, I have to say, I can no longer watch the episode. To me, especially the second part, is too preachy. The underlying political messages about war and the speech ruin it for me now. I think in years down the line, people will cringe over this episode and, in particular, the scene in the war room with the buttons and boxes etc etc. I know it will have it's fans and, for me I was one of them when I first watched it first time swept away with the emotion of the scene but, I just don't feel it now. It feels hollow and done purely for the shock value and the political message. Now one of the episodes I will skip in the future”
“Having recently rewatched the episode, I have to say, I can no longer watch the episode. To me, especially the second part, is too preachy. The underlying political messages about war and the speech ruin it for me now. I think in years down the line, people will cringe over this episode and, in particular, the scene in the war room with the buttons and boxes etc etc. I know it will have it's fans and, for me I was one of them when I first watched it first time swept away with the emotion of the scene but, I just don't feel it now. It feels hollow and done purely for the shock value and the political message. Now one of the episodes I will skip in the future”
Having recently re-watched series 9, I have to agree that this is a bit of a low point of series 9. I guess it just wasnt THAT interesting.
There were a few 'highlights' but also a lot of very non-sensical elements such as:
1. Using planes when he's got the TARDIS (regardless of the 'excuse' for not using it!)
2. The sheer level of killing by the Zygons - they murdered (hundreds?) and at the end all got away with it scot-free. If they wanted to live as humans amongst humans then that level of slaughter would have seen some kind of punishment.
3. (well i give up listing stuff but there were a few more)!
Originally Posted by stocklen:
“2. The sheer level of killing by the Zygons - they murdered (hundreds?) and at the end all got away with it scot-free. If they wanted to live as humans amongst humans then that level of slaughter would have seen some kind of punishment.”
“2. The sheer level of killing by the Zygons - they murdered (hundreds?) and at the end all got away with it scot-free. If they wanted to live as humans amongst humans then that level of slaughter would have seen some kind of punishment.”
Punishment doesn't change the terrible act, and can make future terrible acts more likely.
Quote:
“DOCTOR: These things have happened, Zygella. They are facts. You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. you're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle?”
“DOCTOR: These things have happened, Zygella. They are facts. You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You're not superior to people who were cruel to you. you're just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people being cruel to some other people, who'll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they're prepared to forgive. Why don't you break the cycle?”
I don't think for a second that this episode will be lessened by history - the themes is discusses are not new, the themes are universal, and the more we think about how they relate to our own lives, the better.
I loved the message the episode sent because it's the same message I think the world needs to remember right now: the terrible acts of some don't make the entire people defunct of human rights. As we saw, many Zygons just weren't interested in this war of "us vs. them" and merely wanted to live somewhere they could be safe and happy. Zygons are probably the oddest allegory for immigrants but okay. It's not exactly saying "let them all in, immigration is the best" but doing what the show has always done and taught us that people matter, and we shouldn't judge them for things they have nothing to do with.
I can't see how people are going to cringe at the episode as time goes by. As time goes by the political message becomes less relevant, so whether people will agree or disagree with it they'll likely just look at it as an example of its time, kind of like how we watch 60's Who and don't think much of some of the female characters being there to scream a lot and hide behind the men.
I can't see how people are going to cringe at the episode as time goes by. As time goes by the political message becomes less relevant, so whether people will agree or disagree with it they'll likely just look at it as an example of its time, kind of like how we watch 60's Who and don't think much of some of the female characters being there to scream a lot and hide behind the men.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“I loved the message the episode sent because it's the same message I think the world needs to remember right now: the terrible acts of some don't make the entire people defunct of human rights. As we saw, many Zygons just weren't interested in this war of "us vs. them" and merely wanted to live somewhere they could be safe and happy. Zygons are probably the oddest allegory for immigrants but okay. It's not exactly saying "let them all in, immigration is the best" but doing what the show has always done and taught us that people matter, and we shouldn't judge them for things they have nothing to do with.”
“I loved the message the episode sent because it's the same message I think the world needs to remember right now: the terrible acts of some don't make the entire people defunct of human rights. As we saw, many Zygons just weren't interested in this war of "us vs. them" and merely wanted to live somewhere they could be safe and happy. Zygons are probably the oddest allegory for immigrants but okay. It's not exactly saying "let them all in, immigration is the best" but doing what the show has always done and taught us that people matter, and we shouldn't judge them for things they have nothing to do with.”
More than that - if someone genuinely believes they are being hard done by, rather than just being selfish and aggressive, then punishment makes the problem worse. You won't be able to change their minds that way.
It's been a theme of war-based drama ever since Jesus advised us to turn the other cheek.
That story is a bit of a blunt instrument in terms of getting the message across. It is not subtle. It is didactic. As such I can understand how it could put off some people. One man's preachiness is another's revelation.
But the message is a good one - Essentially, disputes only get resolved when all parties involved sit down and talk, develop trust and reach an agreement.
Those who's views are too extreme get sidelined in that process and their violence minimised.
Rarely are disputes settled militarily by force of arms. Anything that is imposed without agreement and without addressing grievances breeds resentment and becomes the seeds of future conflict.
Right now in the real world I see a lot xenophobia and demonising of enemies and it worries me.
But the message is a good one - Essentially, disputes only get resolved when all parties involved sit down and talk, develop trust and reach an agreement.
Those who's views are too extreme get sidelined in that process and their violence minimised.
Rarely are disputes settled militarily by force of arms. Anything that is imposed without agreement and without addressing grievances breeds resentment and becomes the seeds of future conflict.
Right now in the real world I see a lot xenophobia and demonising of enemies and it worries me.
Clara/Jenna was good in this two-parter, they wasted the character for most of the series but this one gave Jenna something to do and stick her teeth into.
As for the episodes over-all, from what I remember, as I haven't re-watched the series like I normally would as it fell flat for me, they were the better ones only beaten by Heaven Sent..... but I can't say I remember much about the episodes other than Jenna being good in them and the Doctors speech at the end, series 9 was quite forgettable IMO and the only things that do stay in mind are for bad reasons like eye dust monsters...
I think series 9 will be one of those seasons that not many people will go back and re-watch and because it was unmemorable each episode will remembered by a summary line... so with that in mind lets play -
How Series 9 Will Be Remembered
1. The Magicians Apprentice - Pointless plane plot, Tank and wondering around the universe.
2. The Witch's Familiar - The 3 Big villains, the Master Davros and the Daleks, all together in one episode, and they do nothing scary dangerous destructive or evil, but the doc does have a good chat with them all.
3. Under the Lake - some ghosts under water appear.
4. Before the Flood - the ghosts the plot and the environment/setting make no sense, big alien dude does nothing.
5. The Girl Who Died - umm... is this that Viking episode?.. the tellytubbies baby is all grown up and now has a beard but still appears in the sky for us... Doc makes a girl immortal as easily as it takes to make a cup of tea.
6. The Women Who lived - ... I think there was a lion man, I'm pretty sure there was, I remember waking up after the endless immortal talks and there was a lion man.
7. The Zygon Invasion - Oh that's the one that picks up the Zygon story from the 50th
8. The Zygon Inversion - Jenna is pretty.... and plays a cool evil twin... Doc makes a speech
9. Sleep No More - WTF, sleep dust monsters... were they serious? or was this some social test to see how far they can go with any old cobblers and still get people to buy into it..
10. Face the Raven - That's the one Clara kind of dies in right?.... yeah and the one where a magic bird renders all the Who villains pointless, why have armies and evil schemes to kill the Doc, just send a raven after him apparently there's no escaping it in the ENTIRE MASSIVE EVER EXPANDING UNIVERSE, if things like the raven exist and in 21st century Earth times to boot, the doc should of been dead as a dodo long ago.
11. Heaven Sent - the one where the Doctor is on his own in a loop smashing his way through a wall.. and some confusing thing about a confession dial that makes no sense...
12. Hell Bent - Galifrey is back, its boring... Clara is going to live for as long as she wants and has her own Tardis, I think there was something about a immortal girl or something I don't know...
As for the episodes over-all, from what I remember, as I haven't re-watched the series like I normally would as it fell flat for me, they were the better ones only beaten by Heaven Sent..... but I can't say I remember much about the episodes other than Jenna being good in them and the Doctors speech at the end, series 9 was quite forgettable IMO and the only things that do stay in mind are for bad reasons like eye dust monsters...
I think series 9 will be one of those seasons that not many people will go back and re-watch and because it was unmemorable each episode will remembered by a summary line... so with that in mind lets play -
How Series 9 Will Be Remembered
1. The Magicians Apprentice - Pointless plane plot, Tank and wondering around the universe.
2. The Witch's Familiar - The 3 Big villains, the Master Davros and the Daleks, all together in one episode, and they do nothing scary dangerous destructive or evil, but the doc does have a good chat with them all.
3. Under the Lake - some ghosts under water appear.
4. Before the Flood - the ghosts the plot and the environment/setting make no sense, big alien dude does nothing.
5. The Girl Who Died - umm... is this that Viking episode?.. the tellytubbies baby is all grown up and now has a beard but still appears in the sky for us... Doc makes a girl immortal as easily as it takes to make a cup of tea.
6. The Women Who lived - ... I think there was a lion man, I'm pretty sure there was, I remember waking up after the endless immortal talks and there was a lion man.
7. The Zygon Invasion - Oh that's the one that picks up the Zygon story from the 50th
8. The Zygon Inversion - Jenna is pretty.... and plays a cool evil twin... Doc makes a speech
9. Sleep No More - WTF, sleep dust monsters... were they serious? or was this some social test to see how far they can go with any old cobblers and still get people to buy into it..
10. Face the Raven - That's the one Clara kind of dies in right?.... yeah and the one where a magic bird renders all the Who villains pointless, why have armies and evil schemes to kill the Doc, just send a raven after him apparently there's no escaping it in the ENTIRE MASSIVE EVER EXPANDING UNIVERSE, if things like the raven exist and in 21st century Earth times to boot, the doc should of been dead as a dodo long ago.
11. Heaven Sent - the one where the Doctor is on his own in a loop smashing his way through a wall.. and some confusing thing about a confession dial that makes no sense...
12. Hell Bent - Galifrey is back, its boring... Clara is going to live for as long as she wants and has her own Tardis, I think there was something about a immortal girl or something I don't know...
I love the Zygon 2 parter.
The message of forgiveness is very relevant; when you look at Northern Ireland for example, many people with blood on their hands (directly or indirectly) ended up in very senior positions. Other countries had the same thing, where revel fighters or military leaders ended up as civilian leaders, working with their former enemies
The message of forgiveness is very relevant; when you look at Northern Ireland for example, many people with blood on their hands (directly or indirectly) ended up in very senior positions. Other countries had the same thing, where revel fighters or military leaders ended up as civilian leaders, working with their former enemies
Originally Posted by PaperSkin:
“I think series 9 will be one of those seasons that not many people will go back and re-watch and because it was unmemorable each episode will remembered by a summary line... so with that in mind lets play -”
“I think series 9 will be one of those seasons that not many people will go back and re-watch and because it was unmemorable each episode will remembered by a summary line... so with that in mind lets play -”
Something which, oddly enough, is only said by people who hated S9 and think they speak for everybody when they pick what parts of Who they do and don't like.
The same things were said about RTD's series and, though I'd be inclined to agree they weren't great, I'm going to be realistic here because they are now remembered with a lot of fondness.
Even S5-7 have moved past the total scrutiny stage and are now remembered fondly by most people.
Considering the critical acclaim and the buzz around S9, I'd be surprised if it broke the record and aged with a bad taste in most people's mouths.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“Something which, oddly enough, is only said by people who hated S9 and think they speak for everybody when they pick what parts of Who they do and don't like.
The same things were said about RTD's series and, though I'd be inclined to agree they weren't great, I'm going to be realistic here because they are now remembered with a lot of fondness.
Even S5-7 have moved past the total scrutiny stage and are now remembered fondly by most people.
Considering the critical acclaim and the buzz around S9, I'd be surprised if it broke the record and aged with a bad taste in most people's mouths.”
“Something which, oddly enough, is only said by people who hated S9 and think they speak for everybody when they pick what parts of Who they do and don't like.
The same things were said about RTD's series and, though I'd be inclined to agree they weren't great, I'm going to be realistic here because they are now remembered with a lot of fondness.
Even S5-7 have moved past the total scrutiny stage and are now remembered fondly by most people.
Considering the critical acclaim and the buzz around S9, I'd be surprised if it broke the record and aged with a bad taste in most people's mouths.”
Quite so. Not everyone hates S9 (or the rest of SM's DW output for that matter).
Originally Posted by GDK:
“Quite so. Not everyone hates S9 (or the rest of SM's DW output for that matter).”
“Quite so. Not everyone hates S9 (or the rest of SM's DW output for that matter).”
Not at all, but some people think if they say it enough times they can make it happen.
Originally Posted by lylonic_x:
“ I think in years down the line, people will cringe over this episode”
“ I think in years down the line, people will cringe over this episode”
I think in time alot of people will cringe over alot of episodes and their excessive use of regeneration energy in the series.
Thankfully the classic series hasent had too many hate moments over the years but the new series I have my doubts.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“Not at all, but some people think if they say it enough times they can make it happen.”
“Not at all, but some people think if they say it enough times they can make it happen.”
It was just my opinion, I'm not stating my opinion is fact... I just think when looking back and we have lots of seasons then season 9 will be one of those that's a bit forgotten about....
To your earlier post I still think the same thing about series 5 to 7 as I did when they aired i.e. series 5 was mostly good but with a poor arc that got messy at the end but the series had some great ideas in it, series 6 had some standout standalones that were great (love the God Complex) but the Moffet episodes and the arc story was a messy disaster that made no sense, and series 7 was lacking, nothing awful but nothing great either just ok stuff, though I admire the guts of the rings of akhaten and wish they would take more risks like that despite that episode not really working,
Having only watched the episode when broadcast I remember thinking the 'immigrant/refugee/ISIS' commentary was more than a little heavy handed. I think it would have played far better if barely mentioned.
Both episodes had their moments, Capaldi's War Speech and a great turn from Jenna. But part two, for me, fell apart with lapses of character logic and convenience.
That said it was still enjoyable enough. Part one far better than Part two. Part two just wasn't smart enough in it's structure to pull it off imo.
Both episodes had their moments, Capaldi's War Speech and a great turn from Jenna. But part two, for me, fell apart with lapses of character logic and convenience.
That said it was still enjoyable enough. Part one far better than Part two. Part two just wasn't smart enough in it's structure to pull it off imo.
This story was pretty terrible to me in all honesty. It reminded me somewhat of the American comics of the 1970s that decided to self-consciously start talking about social issues but had neither the format or the the quality of writers to really do so effectively, and now look, with hindsight, tremendously naive and over-rated. To quote Harlon Ellison: "We tended to over-rate what we found unexpected".
So Doctor Who was doing a serial with an anti-war and pro-integration theme: tremendous! Except it wasn't because such subject matter needs a finer handling than it received. It was given plaudits simply for trying, not for execution, by my reckoning. Personally i think it's counter productive to attempt material of substance weightier than the format and talent of the creator allows. After all, who does he hope to persuade? Those who loved it are the people who already share the author's views and sentiments. He is simply reinforcing their world view, preaching to the converted. On the other hand, no-one who would espouse an alternative outlook will be persuaded because the argument simply wasn't persuasive due to being built on the very shaky foundation of a plot lacking in credibility and a strong tone of moral instruction, as the OP noted. That is not the way to engage a skeptic.
I said it at the time: the pro integration theme was nonsensical because it was based on an illogical premise and bad understanding of human nature. The story tells us that we shouldn't be afraid of integrating with a culture of creatures with huge advantages over us, that have the capacity to totally out-comptete us, that can disguise themselves from us, that can enter into our homes posing as us, and that are no better than us morally. Of course, logic tells us that we absolutely should be. Zygons are just like us. The show made that clear. And yet, we shouldn't fear them? would you fear humans with those abilities? I damn sure would.
It is not a situation in any way comparable to the real-world subject of racial integration (where the two supposedly 'opposed' forces are equal: different races or cultures of human beings) and therefore does not work as a metaphor for such and does not work as a parable. If anything it cheapens the real-world issue with its fatuous metaphor.
The nadir for me was Osgood's trite assertion that she / they would reveal their exact nature when 'no-one cared about the answer'. This all sounds very profound when subjected to zero critical analysis but actually is exposed as nonsense given the slightest examination. Doesn't any human or Zygon want to know whether that person they are dating is in fact of their own species and therefore compatible with them? Mightn't it be in everyone's interests to know where they actually stand? Wouldn't you like to have that assurance that the person coming into your home as your husband / wife/ child really is in fact that person? Wouldn't you like to know you were competing on equal terms when you apply for that job rather than going up against an individual that can take any form, and therefore out-compete you for any job. Seems to me like humans are pretty quickly going to be getting the short end of the stick there. Yet, we should be careless of this and indeed welcoming to this extraterrestrial species that only recently tried to conquer the planet and supplant us? You can ask me as an audience to be as right-on and liberal as you wish, and generally speaking I am (in regard to the real world issue of integration for example), but don't insult my intelligence with this silly premise or ask me to equate it with any real world situation.
They remain two of the very few episodes I have not rewatched and doubt I ever will. A huge misstep that will date badly.
So Doctor Who was doing a serial with an anti-war and pro-integration theme: tremendous! Except it wasn't because such subject matter needs a finer handling than it received. It was given plaudits simply for trying, not for execution, by my reckoning. Personally i think it's counter productive to attempt material of substance weightier than the format and talent of the creator allows. After all, who does he hope to persuade? Those who loved it are the people who already share the author's views and sentiments. He is simply reinforcing their world view, preaching to the converted. On the other hand, no-one who would espouse an alternative outlook will be persuaded because the argument simply wasn't persuasive due to being built on the very shaky foundation of a plot lacking in credibility and a strong tone of moral instruction, as the OP noted. That is not the way to engage a skeptic.
I said it at the time: the pro integration theme was nonsensical because it was based on an illogical premise and bad understanding of human nature. The story tells us that we shouldn't be afraid of integrating with a culture of creatures with huge advantages over us, that have the capacity to totally out-comptete us, that can disguise themselves from us, that can enter into our homes posing as us, and that are no better than us morally. Of course, logic tells us that we absolutely should be. Zygons are just like us. The show made that clear. And yet, we shouldn't fear them? would you fear humans with those abilities? I damn sure would.
It is not a situation in any way comparable to the real-world subject of racial integration (where the two supposedly 'opposed' forces are equal: different races or cultures of human beings) and therefore does not work as a metaphor for such and does not work as a parable. If anything it cheapens the real-world issue with its fatuous metaphor.
The nadir for me was Osgood's trite assertion that she / they would reveal their exact nature when 'no-one cared about the answer'. This all sounds very profound when subjected to zero critical analysis but actually is exposed as nonsense given the slightest examination. Doesn't any human or Zygon want to know whether that person they are dating is in fact of their own species and therefore compatible with them? Mightn't it be in everyone's interests to know where they actually stand? Wouldn't you like to have that assurance that the person coming into your home as your husband / wife/ child really is in fact that person? Wouldn't you like to know you were competing on equal terms when you apply for that job rather than going up against an individual that can take any form, and therefore out-compete you for any job. Seems to me like humans are pretty quickly going to be getting the short end of the stick there. Yet, we should be careless of this and indeed welcoming to this extraterrestrial species that only recently tried to conquer the planet and supplant us? You can ask me as an audience to be as right-on and liberal as you wish, and generally speaking I am (in regard to the real world issue of integration for example), but don't insult my intelligence with this silly premise or ask me to equate it with any real world situation.
They remain two of the very few episodes I have not rewatched and doubt I ever will. A huge misstep that will date badly.
I personally loved both Zygon episodes despite not expecting to think much of them at all beforehand. They were easily some of the least-looking-forward-to stories of the series at one point, and yet the intrigue grew as they came close, and then both thoroughly impressed me.
Admittedly I can understand why the core aspects of the episode won't have resonated with a lot of people. The metaphors in the episode weren't subtle, but then is that a fair reason to criticise? Personally I don't think so, because those metaphors didn't need to be subtle. They were making a bold point, a striking parallel. I thought it was actually more bold of the show to take that approach and actually have the guts to say something very obvious, rather than dance around the issue. Again, some don't watch Doctor Who wanting this kind of allegory, and it makes sense that those people wouldn't care for the story.
Will the story date though? Only as much as pretty much all other stories do. In fact the two-parter unwound and untied itself from its specific metaphors to make a far more generic point about war in general. And so the story effectively has a resonance of sorts for as long as war goes on. Unfortunately, that's likely to be for centuries to come because we're so good at fighting and killing one another.
As a whole I personally think Series 9 is probably one of Moffat's most revered and will be one of his most remembered. It had its problems, and the usual share of clunker-worthy episodes. It was steeped rather heavily in nostalgia and continuity, but equally managed to do a lot of new stuff as well. Its hybrid arc was weak, but the consensus on the general quality of the show is much more positive. Episodes like Hell Bent are a bit less popular among fans, but remain popular among the more mainstream audience.
Admittedly I can understand why the core aspects of the episode won't have resonated with a lot of people. The metaphors in the episode weren't subtle, but then is that a fair reason to criticise? Personally I don't think so, because those metaphors didn't need to be subtle. They were making a bold point, a striking parallel. I thought it was actually more bold of the show to take that approach and actually have the guts to say something very obvious, rather than dance around the issue. Again, some don't watch Doctor Who wanting this kind of allegory, and it makes sense that those people wouldn't care for the story.
Will the story date though? Only as much as pretty much all other stories do. In fact the two-parter unwound and untied itself from its specific metaphors to make a far more generic point about war in general. And so the story effectively has a resonance of sorts for as long as war goes on. Unfortunately, that's likely to be for centuries to come because we're so good at fighting and killing one another.
As a whole I personally think Series 9 is probably one of Moffat's most revered and will be one of his most remembered. It had its problems, and the usual share of clunker-worthy episodes. It was steeped rather heavily in nostalgia and continuity, but equally managed to do a lot of new stuff as well. Its hybrid arc was weak, but the consensus on the general quality of the show is much more positive. Episodes like Hell Bent are a bit less popular among fans, but remain popular among the more mainstream audience.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“Of course, logic tells us that we absolutely should be. Zygons are just like us. The show made that clear. And yet, we shouldn't fear them? would you fear humans with those abilities? I damn sure would.
It is not a situation in any way comparable to the real-world subject of racial integration (where the two supposedly 'opposed' forces are equal: different races or cultures of human beings) and therefore does not work as a metaphor for such and does not work as a parable. If anything it cheapens the real-world issue with its fatuous metaphor. ”
“Of course, logic tells us that we absolutely should be. Zygons are just like us. The show made that clear. And yet, we shouldn't fear them? would you fear humans with those abilities? I damn sure would.
It is not a situation in any way comparable to the real-world subject of racial integration (where the two supposedly 'opposed' forces are equal: different races or cultures of human beings) and therefore does not work as a metaphor for such and does not work as a parable. If anything it cheapens the real-world issue with its fatuous metaphor. ”
I think you're missing the wood for the trees. The metaphor is not one of racial integration - after all, there are no visible differences. Zygons, are not, for example, a metaphor for Muslims in general, but of hidden terrorists. We have been instilled with the fear is that there are people among us, who look like us, that could destroy us in a moment if they felt the need to - or that they have been planted specifically for that purpose. It also references the anxiety that any subculture feels when it is repressed, which manifests itself in violent action.
Quote:
“The nadir for me was Osgood's trite assertion that she / they would reveal their exact nature when 'no-one cared about the answer'. This all sounds very profound when subjected to zero critical analysis but actually is exposed as nonsense given the slightest examination. Doesn't any human or Zygon want to know whether that person they are dating is in fact of their own species and therefore compatible with them? Mightn't it be in everyone's interests to know where they actually stand? Wouldn't you like to have that assurance that the person coming into your home as your husband / wife/ child really is in fact that person?”
“The nadir for me was Osgood's trite assertion that she / they would reveal their exact nature when 'no-one cared about the answer'. This all sounds very profound when subjected to zero critical analysis but actually is exposed as nonsense given the slightest examination. Doesn't any human or Zygon want to know whether that person they are dating is in fact of their own species and therefore compatible with them? Mightn't it be in everyone's interests to know where they actually stand? Wouldn't you like to have that assurance that the person coming into your home as your husband / wife/ child really is in fact that person?”
That's the point - in order to be accepted, they're having to repress who they are. They want for it not to matter - that it makes no difference. They want to be husbands and wives, instead of 'not really' husbands and wives. They want to be who they are.
This is a theme common to all races, cultures, sexualities, fetishes, addictions, disabilities - many people have aspects of themselves they feel they cannot reveal, even to loved ones, for fear or rejection. Everyone wants to fit in.
Originally Posted by GDK:
“But the message is a good one - Essentially, disputes only get resolved when all parties involved sit down and talk, develop trust and reach an agreement.”
“But the message is a good one - Essentially, disputes only get resolved when all parties involved sit down and talk, develop trust and reach an agreement.”
A great message but one the Doctor ignores straight after preaching it.
Instead of dealing with the real issue that the Zygon's don't want to pretend to be human, he wipes their memories and forces them to continue living as humans. It's no wonder the Zygon uprising keeps happening (as is mentioned in the story).
