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EE 2G/3G/4G Discussion Thread (Part 2)


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Old 15-03-2016, 11:00
red_snow
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OK that is fine, however I know that there is very good O2/VF in this building but the handset does not display those bars all of the time when there is no EE signal (which is 99% of the time). Are you saying that it will only intermittently display those bars of another network for emergency calls? If so it is extremely intermittent as I have not really noticed it before!
EDIT - OK Noticing it more now ........ what a tease these Samsung devices are!!
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Old 15-03-2016, 11:10
de525ma
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Actually, I've thought of something. So long as my Samsung S4 doesn't do its crazy "I must drop to 2G very quickly" thing, with 4G on full power I should be ok and not experience any drop outs - as I will be doing tunein, spotify, youtube and other internet based things over 4G (which is faster than 3G) and calls will go over 2G - ideally with HD Voice being turned on for 2G as well. So theoretically I won't need 3G and it might be able to be refarmed to 4G. But doing that will leave a lot of users on legacy devices either upgrading or moving networks.
Hallelujah - you're beginning to get it... But your concern for "legacy devices" is pretty unfounded. All major smartphone releases in the past 2 years have been 4G capable. A couple of years down the line, there will be hardly any 3G only smartphones kicking around. And those users can go to O2. Who cares. You're making a massive saving shutting off the 3G network.
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Old 15-03-2016, 11:17
CheshireBumpkin
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As long as it has some kind of data connection it'll update
Cool - thanks for clearing that one up...
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Old 15-03-2016, 11:35
Thine Wonk
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Hallelujah - you're beginning to get it... But your concern for "legacy devices" is pretty unfounded. All major smartphone releases in the past 2 years have been 4G capable. A couple of years down the line, there will be hardly any 3G only smartphones kicking around. And those users can go to O2. Who cares. You're making a massive saving shutting off the 3G network.
All high end flagship devices, still plenty of handsets and mifi's on sale today that are 3G.

I think you're a case of "I'm very techie and all my friends are similar to me / similar age, so everyone else must be like me and my friends". In reality there's millions in the UK with 3G mifi's and phones and there will be for years. Not everybody always has the latest device they got on the last 24 month contract you know.

I doubt EE / BT would want to say goodbye to 4 million subscribers (if not higher) and kick them over to a major competitor and take a whatever % hit in revenue for what? A marginal benefit seeing as some spectrum could still be re-used for 4G, leaving what is needed for 3G capacity. I don't think 3G will be going anywhere in the next 2 years, I think it'll be longer than that.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:11
de525ma
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All high end flagship devices, still plenty of handsets and mifi's on sale today that are 3G.

I think you're a case of "I'm very techie and all my friends are similar to me / similar age, so everyone else must be like me and my friends". In reality there's millions in the UK with 3G mifi's and phones and there will be for years. Not everybody always has the latest device they got on the last 24 month contract you know.

I doubt EE / BT would want to say goodbye to 4 million subscribers (if not higher) and kick them over to a major competitor and take a whatever % hit in revenue for what? A marginal benefit seeing as some spectrum could still be re-used for 4G, leaving what is needed for 3G capacity. I don't think 3G will be going anywhere in the next 2 years, I think it'll be longer than that.
I said in 2 years time, not NOW. And you can pick up a multitude of cheap 4G devices, your argument just doesn't hold water.

As we have covered many, many times, 3G is causing a bit of a headache for mobile operators, due to its variable footprint, lack of data handover, and its higher frequency. It's about more than spectrum refarming. The equipment used is not cheap to run, and the complexity of the handover for calls over 3 different technologies is not sustainable in the long run. Handset battery life is also suffering.

What evidence do you have that 4 million customers have 3G only smartphones? Older feature phones will be fine on 2G. It does email, calls and texts, keeping them supported for as long as they need.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:14
Thine Wonk
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People are buying them NOW though, and will stil want to use them in 2 years I'm sure.

Again, I think you've failen into the trap of thinking everyone else in the world is into technology as much as you and thinks the same way. There will still be loads of non 4G capable devices in use in 2 years and I doubt very much whether any network would want to hand them all over to a competitor and take the revenue hit when they could just re-purpose some spectrum and leave some in use for 3G.

Your post doesn't make any sense, since modern base stations can broadcast 3G and 4G as I understand it, there's little cost to leaving older equipment in place even if that wasn't the case. The other issues you mention don't affect the operator much. The cells still need to be there, they still need the same spacing whether they use the cell and spectum for 4G or 3G. They can move some spectrum to 4G as capacity permits as 2100Mhz is a widely supported 4G band. The complexity of handover is just a software configuration, once it's done it's done. 3 methods are in place now, so why it's not sustainable is a mystery, expecally as these things generally get simpler and more streamlined over time.

Turning off 3G could cost the business 10% of their revenue, even in 2 years, the operator would see their competitor swallow up a sizeable percentage of their customer base, which would be easily avoidable as mentioned above.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:22
de525ma
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People are buying them NOW though, and will stil want to use them in 2 years I'm sure.

Again, I think you've failen into the trap of thinking everyone else in the world is into technology as much as you and thinks the same way. There will still be loads of non 4G capable devices in use in 2 years and I doubt very much whether any network would want to hand them all over to a competitor and take the revenue hit when they could just re-purpose some spectrum and leave some in use for 3G.
No - I have not fallen into any trap. Which is why I am advocating the continuance of the 2G network to support older feature phones which many people still use. FIne for emails, calls and texts.

But I have little sympathy for people who buy a cheap 3G only smartphone NOW and then expect it to work in perpetuity. Any purchase can be researched, along with its pros and cons. Especially as you can pick up a 4G capable one for a comparable price.

You don't need to be a technical person to understand "Mobiles are going 4G. If this is intended to be a long term purchase, make sure you have a 4G capable one".
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:28
Thine Wonk
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No - I have not fallen into any trap. Which is why I am advocating the continuance of the 2G network to support older feature phones which many people still use. FIne for emails, calls and texts.

But I have little sympathy for people who buy a cheap 3G only smartphone NOW and then expect it to work in perpetuity. Any purchase can be researched, along with its pros and cons. Especially as you can pick up a 4G capable one for a comparable price.

You don't need to be a technical person to understand "Mobiles are going 4G. If this is intended to be a long term purchase, make sure you have a 4G capable one".
Yes you are, customers won't be happy to lose 3G in 2 years because you want something illogical in such a short time-frame. The very fact that they are on sale now suggests that the network expects them to work for the typical life-span of a phone.

I think you're living in a bubble because you're a technology fan with friends and associates who are likely to be of a similar age / interest. I don't think you realise how many people don't have the newest high-end smartphones all the time. You're looking for reasons to justify your case, but many are weak and I'll thought out from the operator point of view.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:31
WelshBluebird
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You don't need to be a technical person to understand "Mobiles are going 4G. If this is intended to be a long term purchase, make sure you have a 4G capable one".
Except most "normal" people don't even know what 2G, 3G or 4G even are!
Most have probably got the point of knowing that 4G is faster than 3G which is faster than 2G but that is about it. No idea of the technical implications of maintaining a network incorporating all three, no idea that wireless spectrum can be used better by dropping support for some technologies, no idea that 4G for nearly all networks is purposefully being run below its "proper" coverage to avoid issues with VoLTE etc etc. Most people just don't know and don't care. They buy a phone now and WILL still expect it to work in 2-5 years time. Not indefinitely but certainly not stop working in just a couple of years.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:38
de525ma
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I think you're living in a bubble because you're a technology fan with friends and associates who are likely to be of a similar age / interest. I don't think you realise how many people don't have the newest high-end smartphones all the time. You're looking for reasons to justify your case, but many are weak and I'll thought out from the operator point of view.
Disagree with me - that's fine, but please stop pushing this stereotype on me. Just reads like a personal, patronising ad hominem attack that lends nothing to the discussion.
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Old 15-03-2016, 12:47
Thine Wonk
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Disagree with me - that's fine, but please stop pushing this stereotype on me. Just reads like a personal, patronising ad hominem attack that lends nothing to the discussion.
You even said yourself that the public would be stupid to buy a 3G phone and still expect it to work in 2 years! That is a shining example of how somebody from a technology perspective can think that all consumers are similar to themselves or their group of friends.

I think it would be silly to think that the networks would turn off 3G in 2 years time given the devices are still on sale and the sizeable loss of revenue, handing customers over to rival networks, large number of calls generated to support over losing signal, marketing cost to inform and explain to customers what is happening, upset customers venting, negative press etc.

The operator could migrate spectrum blocks over to 4G as needed and leave 3G cell broadcast at whatever capacity and priority (low) in the medium term. The reasons you put forward for doing your suggestion are weak at best when you consider it from the operator point of view. 3 lots of handover? Well they do it today, usually config management gets easier as technology matures not more difficult. Base station cost? It is supported on the newer base stations to my knowledge and anyway you're still advocating leaving 2G on.
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Old 15-03-2016, 13:08
de525ma
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You even said yourself that the public would be stupid to buy a 3G phone and still expect it to work in 2 years! That is a shining example of how somebody from a technology perspective can think that all consumers are similar to themselves or their group of friends.
Where did I say "stupid"? It's certainly an ill-advised purchase in my opinion, but that's as far as it goes. And also I said "in perpetuity" - not 2 years, which is an arbitrary length of time which I plucked out of the air as an example. Maybe it's 3, maybe it's 5... My original argument was that 3G should be removed from the equation as soon as it is feasible to do so, as, in effect, it's obsolete. 2G will be around for a lot longer, for good reasons.

I will ask you politely again to stop making assumptions about my background, personal interests and social circles.
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Old 15-03-2016, 13:56
Thine Wonk
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I bet hardly any of the public are aware that 3G might go away any time soon or do the kind of research you suggest. If it's on sale now by the operator it really needs to work for a reasonable period of time, I'd say up to 4 years. I'm sure we've all got devices we still plan to use in the future.

I can't see any network killing off 3G in a short time frame like 2 years as you suggest.
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Old 15-03-2016, 17:30
Cloudane
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I know a lot of people, including techies, who say that 3G is enough for them at the moment (I wish I had a pound for every time a friend of mine says "but I already got H+ everywhere, that's fine?!") and so 4G capability doesn't factor into their choice of phone or tariff. So yeah I think it's going to be around for a bit of a while yet. Apple still sell a 3G phone too, for those who want to be on the apple cart but not spend a fortune. You also have to take Three into account - they don't seem to be in any rush whatsoever to roll out 4G, so this will have some degree of influence on the popularity of non-4G phones.
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Old 15-03-2016, 18:05
beans0ntoast
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It will be the signal when making emergency calls. Samsung display that as if it was normal signal.
That is correct - the same goes for my S4, when it has bars but no data symbol, it is for "emergency calls only".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do emergency calls, such as 999 etc, have to be taken through any network or technology, regardless of operator? So if I lost my Virgin (EE) signal, but needed to make an emergency call, would that call go through a different network that was available?

I know that no networks at all is the round circle with the line through it - it occasionally happens on my S4 whereby no provider at all gives 3G coverage.
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Old 15-03-2016, 18:13
moox
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but do emergency calls, such as 999 etc, have to be taken through any network or technology, regardless of operator? So if I lost my Virgin (EE) signal, but needed to make an emergency call, would that call go through a different network that was available?
Yes, though at one point in the UK this wasn't true - all the way to 2009, apparently http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/news/connecting-citizens/
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Old 15-03-2016, 18:17
packages
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That is correct - the same goes for my S4, when it has bars but no data symbol, it is for "emergency calls only".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do emergency calls, such as 999 etc, have to be taken through any network or technology, regardless of operator? So if I lost my Virgin (EE) signal, but needed to make an emergency call, would that call go through a different network that was available?

I know that no networks at all is the round circle with the line through it - it occasionally happens on my S4 whereby no provider at all gives 3G coverage.
Yes obviously you will roam onto any available network.
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Old 15-03-2016, 18:37
WelshBluebird
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That is correct - the same goes for my S4, when it has bars but no data symbol, it is for "emergency calls only".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do emergency calls, such as 999 etc, have to be taken through any network or technology, regardless of operator? So if I lost my Virgin (EE) signal, but needed to make an emergency call, would that call go through a different network that was available?

I know that no networks at all is the round circle with the line through it - it occasionally happens on my S4 whereby no provider at all gives 3G coverage.
Just a quick note - the S4 also shows the same (bars with no data symbol) for Three's 2G fallback. This is because data isn't available over the 2G fallback.
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Old 15-03-2016, 18:51
beans0ntoast
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Just a quick note - the S4 also shows the same (bars with no data symbol) for Three's 2G fallback. This is because data isn't available over the 2G fallback.
Thanks for letting me know. However, I haven't seen that before, because I don't have 2G switched on on my S4. For some reason, the S4 wants to go to 2G, despite a 3G signal being present - which causes problems.

Though I suspect that the Three 2G fallback will only be used if nothing else - literally nothing else - is available. And of course, only in areas where there is still an Orange signal (the Orange masts are gradually being converted anyway).
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Old 15-03-2016, 19:37
beans0ntoast
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Yes, though at one point in the UK this wasn't true - all the way to 2009, apparently http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/news/connecting-citizens/
It's a good job that got changed; otherwise people would be unable to ring the police (or other emergency service) if their mobile network was unavailable!
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Old 15-03-2016, 20:12
packages
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It's a good job that got changed; otherwise people would be unable to ring the police (or other emergency service) if their mobile network was unavailable!
It's mad to think this wasn't the case previously.
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:21
D_S7
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Apple still sell a 3G phone too, for those who want to be on the apple cart but not spend a fortune.
What phone do Apple still sell that's only 3G?
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:34
Cloudane
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What phone do Apple still sell that's only 3G?
They still sell the 5S, which...... does have LTE, I didn't read their spec page properly. Never mind then I thought the 6 was the first, but hadn't been following Apple phones during the 5 era.
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:58
packages
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They still sell the 5S, which...... does have LTE, I didn't read their spec page properly. Never mind then I thought the 6 was the first, but hadn't been following Apple phones during the 5 era.
The iPhone 5 had 4G!
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Old 15-03-2016, 22:13
DevonBloke
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I bet hardly any of the public are aware that 3G might go away any time soon or do the kind of research you suggest. If it's on sale now by the operator it really needs to work for a reasonable period of time, I'd say up to 4 years. I'm sure we've all got devices we still plan to use in the future.

I can't see any network killing off 3G in a short time frame like 2 years as you suggest.
Won't be killed off. Will be gradually re-farmed.
Bring some spectrum over to 4G, ditch Dual Carrier HSPA reducing 3G performance.
legacy users will soon upgrade. No one will be forced, just coaxed....
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