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PC Complains about the shows handling by beeb |
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#26 |
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Except the evidence proves otherwise, doesn't it?
If you exclude the debut of Capaldi (which is completely out of line with the ratings of the rest of the series): Average overnight for pre Caretaker series 8 = 5.04m Average overnight for post Caretaker series 8 = 5.04m Average final for pre Caretaker series 8 = 7.14m Average final for post Caretaker series 8 = 7.06m As you can see, shifting the show later in series 8 made no difference to the ratings for that series. The share is going to be lowered of course for those episodes because the show had more competition - there was a big show on the other side that people turned on the TV specifically to watch. However that made no difference to the number of people choosing to watch DW, simply that there was also another thing many people watch on at the same time. e.g. if there's only one show on, it will get 100% share, put two shows on the and the share for the first show will of course go down even if the raw numbers don't change. In the end though, series 8 did just as well in the late slot that it did in the early. So why would the BBC feel any need to move it for series 9? They put it right back into a slot it did well in the year before. Quote:
Just for your information: Claire only ever posts in subjects as an opportunity (direct or indirect) to attack Steven Moffat (in this instance indirectly as a key member of the Doctor Who production team). Check her posting history. She never makes any post whatsoever that doesn't further that agenda. There appears to be some pretty hardcore grudge behind it. There's not much point debating with her.
Not sure what you consider an agenda or grudge - it's not like I'm hoping to create mass anti-Moffat protests or he's come to my house and kicked my plant pots over or something I think his stuff in the early series is great, I think he badly handled the River Song character, I think he created the best of the modern Doctors in 11 and one of the best companions in Clara. I think he ran out of creative steam at least a series ago and series 8 and 9 are far from his best work. As such, a more balanced opinion than most seem to have on him!I also think that blaming the BBC for any issues the show now has is an easy scapegoat and utterly unfair considering how much they've put into the series. The paranoia that they want to get rid of it is totally unfounded. |
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#27 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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I also think that blaming the BBC for any issues the show now has is an easy scapegoat and utterly unfair considering how much they've put into the series. The paranoia that they want to get rid of it is totally unfounded.
I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now. It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse. I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years |
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#28 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.
I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now. It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse. I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years Just look at the Christmas special, better promotion, earlier start time and written for a more broad audience and it achieved higher ratings and audience share. It's hardly rocket science... |
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#29 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.
I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now. It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse. I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years I loved Moffat 2010-2013-ish but the arcs he has written I just can't be asked for anymore. I also despise the non-linear stories and making them more overcomplicated than they need to be. The Series 9 finale was good at the beginning when I thought something was actually gonna happen in it but as soon as Clara came back my brain switched off. |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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Completey agree some people need to realise no matter how much something is advertised or how early its placed on the TV listings, if the show itself is bad the advertising won't save it, if the production team did its part, maybe the BBC will too.
Regardless, I've seen many criticially panned shows that met great success due to advertising, and shows that were advertised poorly and faired poorly yet become some of the most beloved shows of all time. |
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#31 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.
I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now. It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse. I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years In my opinion someone like Capaldi who not only is a good actor, and a lifelong fan deserved better than to be part of an era of falling ratings and an inconsistent doctor personality. I feel sorry for him that he didn't get to be the doctor under RTD. With his acting skills and that writing he could have been remembered as one of the greatest incarnations (by more than just a few die hard Moffat fans) |
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#32 |
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I feel sorry for him that he didn't get to be the doctor under RTD. With his acting skills and that writing he could have been remembered as one of the greatest incarnations (by more than just a few die hard Moffat fans)
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#33 |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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So Capaldi critcises his bosses?
I sense a regeneration coming on. |
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#34 |
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Join Date: May 2013
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How do you know how he's going to be remembered when we're still somewhere in the middle of his tenure...?
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#35 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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And there's a lot of love for Capaldi out there....all over the world. It was only really in his third series that a degree of Tennantmania kicked in, I reckon. It's certainly not just a few diehard Moffat fans who rate Peter C. (and I liked Tennant. And RTD.)
There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered. |
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#36 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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That's what I'm thinking... you've got the people who are all "He's not Tennant/Smith so I don't care" but I also see a lot of love for him all over the internet, with many people begging for him to stay on after next series. It doesn't really make sense to assume he's not going to be remembered very well at this moment in time, but then, some people on this forum use "Moffat fan" as an insult for some reason...
There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered.
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#37 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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It's a case of history repeating itself.
Makes you wonder why bother bringing the show back. |
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#38 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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How do you know how he's going to be remembered when we're still somewhere in the middle of his tenure...?
If you love him and Moffat and think that 12 is indeed the best incarnation then that's great for you.
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#39 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,034
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All that money they make on the show and they just piss the fans about. Autumn start, spring start, split season over 2 years is just taking the mick. It should be spring every year. No excuses!
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#40 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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And all because the BBC indulges Moffat's desire to run two high-profile shows. He should have been made to choose as soon as the first split season was required. Three long delays in six years is ludicrous.
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#41 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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That's what I'm thinking... you've got the people who are all "He's not Tennant/Smith so I don't care" but I also see a lot of love for him all over the internet, with many people begging for him to stay on after next series. It doesn't really make sense to assume he's not going to be remembered very well at this moment in time, but then, some people on this forum use "Moffat fan" as an insult for some reason...
There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered. Honestly i have seen this with so many shows, an episode is released and the general consensus think it is amazing, couple years later, that opinion has changed completely, and vice versa. |
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#42 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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And all because the BBC indulges Moffat's desire to run two high-profile shows. He should have been made to choose as soon as the first split season was required. Three long delays in six years is ludicrous.
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#43 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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He did choose, and he chose Sherlock. Hardly his fault if the Beeb couldn't get anyone to replace him now is it?
Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are. |
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#44 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Wigan
Posts: 4,881
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and ihht's just being let down by schedulers.
I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now. It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse. I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years If you can find no fault in the writing, then it's all the fault of the scheduling, the weather, the time of year, what's on the other channels, lack or poor of promotion, the general decline in TV viewing. If you hate SM's writing, then it's all his fault. For me, the truth is that all those are factors. There have been some stellar episodes in both series 8 and 9, and a few ropey ones, and the stellar ones have been more attractive to the fans than to the mainstream audience. |
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#45 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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I think that's partly the industry's fault (it's incredibly 'who you know' and that makes it much harder for new talent to come through) and partly an issue of the show's status. The BBC aren't going to give it to an enthusiastic writer who doesn't have extensive experience but those who are established understand the risk of taking on DW. Their career is already going really well and do they want to risk it by taking over a show that has a real chance of poisoning that career?
Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are. |
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#46 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
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#47 |
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Join Date: May 2013
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
ETA Snap! |
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#48 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
Moffat didn't expect to return for series 10. He's said that he thought that the Christmas episode just aired would probably be his last, hence why he brought River back to conclude her arc. I suspect also that the fairy tale ending with them "all living happily ever after" was meant to close the chapter on his fairy tale take on Doctor Who. The BBC wanted Chibnall to take over, but Chibnall was too busy with Broadchurch and so he wasn't available until 2018. In the meantime Moffat signed up for another series of Sherlock but he agreed to continue with Doctor Who so that it wasn't left in the lurch. All this shuffling around and negotiating incurred a delay of approx. three months of filming, which would mean that Doctor Who will miss it's now usual autumn start date, but the show will actually be ready for broadcast from the beginning of 2017. The BBC are holding back until the Spring so that they can put it back in that less competitive slot and so that it can be shown earlier in the evenings as it won't have to fit around Strictly. But as much as it probably turns your stomach to admit it, without Moffat agreeing to come back for series 10 the gap year which we are currently facing would probably be much larger. |
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#49 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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I think that's partly the industry's fault (it's incredibly 'who you know' and that makes it much harder for new talent to come through) and partly an issue of the show's status. The BBC aren't going to give it to an enthusiastic writer who doesn't have extensive experience but those who are established understand the risk of taking on DW. Their career is already going really well and do they want to risk it by taking over a show that has a real chance of poisoning that career?
Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are. It's also been alluded to that Moffat and RTD before him were both knackered from working on the show and it seems to be rather all consuming. Which would certainly put off potential candidates. I wonder if there isn't anything that the BBC can do to help in this regard? Perhaps Doctor Who doesn't suit the single show runner model and a team of people would be a better fit? |
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#50 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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I completely agree and I also get the impression that established writers prefer to work on their own series, rather than just be the custodian of an ongoing series for a number of years.
It's also been alluded to that Moffat and RTD before him were both knackered from working on the show and it seems to be rather all consuming. Which would certainly put off potential candidates. I wonder if there isn't anything that the BBC can do to help in this regard? Perhaps Doctor Who doesn't suit the single show runner model and a team of people would be a better fit? If you read he Writer's Tale, there are times when RTD is emailing Benjamin Cook at 1\2am, and telling him he has a car coming for him at 6 to take him to Cardiff |
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I think his stuff in the early series is great, I think he badly handled the River Song character, I think he created the best of the modern Doctors in 11 and one of the best companions in Clara. I think he ran out of creative steam at least a series ago and series 8 and 9 are far from his best work. As such, a more balanced opinion than most seem to have on him!