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Old 12-03-2016, 08:25
claire2281
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Except the evidence proves otherwise, doesn't it?
Not really tbh.

If you exclude the debut of Capaldi (which is completely out of line with the ratings of the rest of the series):

Average overnight for pre Caretaker series 8 = 5.04m
Average overnight for post Caretaker series 8 = 5.04m
Average final for pre Caretaker series 8 = 7.14m
Average final for post Caretaker series 8 = 7.06m

As you can see, shifting the show later in series 8 made no difference to the ratings for that series. The share is going to be lowered of course for those episodes because the show had more competition - there was a big show on the other side that people turned on the TV specifically to watch. However that made no difference to the number of people choosing to watch DW, simply that there was also another thing many people watch on at the same time. e.g. if there's only one show on, it will get 100% share, put two shows on the and the share for the first show will of course go down even if the raw numbers don't change.

In the end though, series 8 did just as well in the late slot that it did in the early. So why would the BBC feel any need to move it for series 9? They put it right back into a slot it did well in the year before.

Just for your information: Claire only ever posts in subjects as an opportunity (direct or indirect) to attack Steven Moffat (in this instance indirectly as a key member of the Doctor Who production team). Check her posting history. She never makes any post whatsoever that doesn't further that agenda. There appears to be some pretty hardcore grudge behind it. There's not much point debating with her.
I seem to vaguely remember you getting in a strop with me about my opinions before. The fact you would post this now is partly bemusing and partly a bit creepy tbh! It reads more like YOU take any criticism of him personally which I really don't understand.

Not sure what you consider an agenda or grudge - it's not like I'm hoping to create mass anti-Moffat protests or he's come to my house and kicked my plant pots over or something I think his stuff in the early series is great, I think he badly handled the River Song character, I think he created the best of the modern Doctors in 11 and one of the best companions in Clara. I think he ran out of creative steam at least a series ago and series 8 and 9 are far from his best work. As such, a more balanced opinion than most seem to have on him!

I also think that blaming the BBC for any issues the show now has is an easy scapegoat and utterly unfair considering how much they've put into the series. The paranoia that they want to get rid of it is totally unfounded.
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:00
be more pacific
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I also think that blaming the BBC for any issues the show now has is an easy scapegoat and utterly unfair considering how much they've put into the series. The paranoia that they want to get rid of it is totally unfounded.
Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.

I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now.

It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse.

I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:37
DiscoP
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.

I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now.

It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse.

I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years
I would suggest that the reduction in ratings and audience share is down to all of the above, (apart from the horoscopes). I think the writing for Doctor Who is aiming more at a niche market than the mainstream market (not that I'm complaining because that niche market still happens to include me) but scheduling the opening episodes against major sporting events, poor promotion and late start times certainly did not help matters.

Just look at the Christmas special, better promotion, earlier start time and written for a more broad audience and it achieved higher ratings and audience share. It's hardly rocket science...
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Old 12-03-2016, 13:51
Brandon_Smith
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.

I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now.

It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse.

I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years
Completey agree some people need to realise no matter how much something is advertised or how early its placed on the TV listings, if the show itself is bad the advertising won't save it, if the production team did its part, maybe the BBC will too.

I loved Moffat 2010-2013-ish but the arcs he has written I just can't be asked for anymore. I also despise the non-linear stories and making them more overcomplicated than they need to be. The Series 9 finale was good at the beginning when I thought something was actually gonna happen in it but as soon as Clara came back my brain switched off.
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Old 12-03-2016, 15:20
Lord Smexy
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Completey agree some people need to realise no matter how much something is advertised or how early its placed on the TV listings, if the show itself is bad the advertising won't save it, if the production team did its part, maybe the BBC will too.
But this is under the presumption that people should just accept that something is "bad" whether they thought it was or not, when that isn't the case at all. This is where people get arrogant enough to think that their opinion is fact and people with differing ones are in the wrong.

Regardless, I've seen many criticially panned shows that met great success due to advertising, and shows that were advertised poorly and faired poorly yet become some of the most beloved shows of all time.
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Old 12-03-2016, 18:05
doctor blue box
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and it's just being let down by schedulers.

I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now.

It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse.


I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years
I agree. It's a shame because as you say, viewers may well blame Capaldi, when he's pretty much the only one you can't really blame, as his acting is top notch and he has made the best of what he has had, and having to change the personality of 12 completely between seris 8 and 9.

In my opinion someone like Capaldi who not only is a good actor, and a lifelong fan deserved better than to be part of an era of falling ratings and an inconsistent doctor personality.

I feel sorry for him that he didn't get to be the doctor under RTD. With his acting skills and that writing he could have been remembered as one of the greatest incarnations (by more than just a few die hard Moffat fans)
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Old 12-03-2016, 18:13
Lord Smexy
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I feel sorry for him that he didn't get to be the doctor under RTD. With his acting skills and that writing he could have been remembered as one of the greatest incarnations (by more than just a few die hard Moffat fans)
How do you know how he's going to be remembered when we're still somewhere in the middle of his tenure...?
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Old 12-03-2016, 18:14
jcafcw
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So Capaldi critcises his bosses?

I sense a regeneration coming on.
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Old 12-03-2016, 18:23
Michael_Eve
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How do you know how he's going to be remembered when we're still somewhere in the middle of his tenure...?
And there's a lot of love for Capaldi out there....all over the world. It was only really in his third series that a degree of Tennantmania kicked in, I reckon. It's certainly not just a few diehard Moffat fans who rate Peter C. (and I liked Tennant. And RTD.)
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Old 12-03-2016, 18:37
Lord Smexy
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And there's a lot of love for Capaldi out there....all over the world. It was only really in his third series that a degree of Tennantmania kicked in, I reckon. It's certainly not just a few diehard Moffat fans who rate Peter C. (and I liked Tennant. And RTD.)
That's what I'm thinking... you've got the people who are all "He's not Tennant/Smith so I don't care" but I also see a lot of love for him all over the internet, with many people begging for him to stay on after next series. It doesn't really make sense to assume he's not going to be remembered very well at this moment in time, but then, some people on this forum use "Moffat fan" as an insult for some reason...

There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered.
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Old 12-03-2016, 19:20
DiscoP
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That's what I'm thinking... you've got the people who are all "He's not Tennant/Smith so I don't care" but I also see a lot of love for him all over the internet, with many people begging for him to stay on after next series. It doesn't really make sense to assume he's not going to be remembered very well at this moment in time, but then, some people on this forum use "Moffat fan" as an insult for some reason...

There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered.
Well it certainly seems that Saint RTD can do no wrong since he left the show (although that very much wasn't reflected on these forums whilst he was running the show) so I give it a year or two max after Moffat has left for him to be canonised as well
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Old 12-03-2016, 19:34
dave_windows
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It's a case of history repeating itself.

Makes you wonder why bother bringing the show back.
All that money they make on the show and they just piss the fans about. Autumn start, spring start, split season over 2 years is just taking the mick. It should be spring every year. No excuses!
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Old 12-03-2016, 20:43
doctor blue box
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How do you know how he's going to be remembered when we're still somewhere in the middle of his tenure...?
Fair comment. Obviously I can't actually say about that, I'm just judging based on how his tenure has gone and been received so far (by my own perception of course).

If you love him and Moffat and think that 12 is indeed the best incarnation then that's great for you.
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Old 12-03-2016, 20:54
be more pacific
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All that money they make on the show and they just piss the fans about. Autumn start, spring start, split season over 2 years is just taking the mick. It should be spring every year. No excuses!
And all because the BBC indulges Moffat's desire to run two high-profile shows. He should have been made to choose as soon as the first split season was required. Three long delays in six years is ludicrous.
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Old 12-03-2016, 21:17
DiscoP
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And all because the BBC indulges Moffat's desire to run two high-profile shows. He should have been made to choose as soon as the first split season was required. Three long delays in six years is ludicrous.
He did choose, and he chose Sherlock. Hardly his fault if the Beeb couldn't get anyone to replace him now is it?
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Old 12-03-2016, 21:37
Sam_Gee1
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That's what I'm thinking... you've got the people who are all "He's not Tennant/Smith so I don't care" but I also see a lot of love for him all over the internet, with many people begging for him to stay on after next series. It doesn't really make sense to assume he's not going to be remembered very well at this moment in time, but then, some people on this forum use "Moffat fan" as an insult for some reason...

There's also this assumption by some that Moffat isn't going to be remembered very well either and that people will look back on his era as a complete mess, but I think that's a personal projection of peoples' own opinions. I certainly don't see why he wouldn't be remembered fondly, as I remember what it was like when RTD ran things and you couldn't talk about Who without people bringing up their dislike for him. Considering how Moffat managed to keep Doctor Who going strong in the footsteps of RTD, where most people would have failed, and has earned a lot of critical acclaim throughout his time, I think he's done spectularly well and will be remembered it. Anyone can look back on Who's history, or at the history of any show for that matter, and see that ratings don't always reflect how something is remembered.
That is why i say, you can't properly gauge an epsiode/era's success or popularity till a few years after the fact. Because during it, everyone's emotions are high, it clouds there judgement, and they take certain people's word or ratings as the measure of how good it is, instead of forming their own opinion.

Honestly i have seen this with so many shows, an episode is released and the general consensus think it is amazing, couple years later, that opinion has changed completely, and vice versa.
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Old 13-03-2016, 08:24
dave_windows
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And all because the BBC indulges Moffat's desire to run two high-profile shows. He should have been made to choose as soon as the first split season was required. Three long delays in six years is ludicrous.
The BBC really should workout where their Priorties lie and I hated when Moff had done Sherlock because it did interfere with Doctor Who. He can say it didnt all he wants but we got split seasons and its not on.
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Old 13-03-2016, 08:49
claire2281
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He did choose, and he chose Sherlock. Hardly his fault if the Beeb couldn't get anyone to replace him now is it?
I think that's partly the industry's fault (it's incredibly 'who you know' and that makes it much harder for new talent to come through) and partly an issue of the show's status. The BBC aren't going to give it to an enthusiastic writer who doesn't have extensive experience but those who are established understand the risk of taking on DW. Their career is already going really well and do they want to risk it by taking over a show that has a real chance of poisoning that career?

Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are.
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Old 13-03-2016, 10:21
GDK
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Indeed. These comments do seem to come from the position that the show is absolutely fantastic and ihht's just being let down by schedulers.

I too initially loved the new style Moffat brought to the show. But the sitcom-style writing of constant quickfire quips, the lazy device of making basic stories 'clever' by non-linear storytelling and the resolution of long, convoluted arcs with a hand waft are all starting to grate now.

It's unfortunate for Capaldi, as the deserting viewers might identify him as the cause of the problem. (Even I might skip to Series 11 and the post-Moffat era.) I personally feel the drop in popularity is mainly down to the writing, rather than scheduling, the weather, horoscopes or any other excuse.

I had a huge amount of goodwill for Moffat in November 2013. But he seems to have become very complacent in the last couple of years
BIB: Not really. Most are arguing, quite reasonably, that the scheduling is a contributory factor. Very few are taking the position that everything in the garden is rosie regarding the writing. Some of those who have strong opinions (either way) are merely projecting that opinion on to the causes of the drop and cherry picking evidence to suit their subjective opinion of the quality of the show recently. It's called confirmation bias.

If you can find no fault in the writing, then it's all the fault of the scheduling, the weather, the time of year, what's on the other channels, lack or poor of promotion, the general decline in TV viewing.

If you hate SM's writing, then it's all his fault.

For me, the truth is that all those are factors. There have been some stellar episodes in both series 8 and 9, and a few ropey ones, and the stellar ones have been more attractive to the fans than to the mainstream audience.
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Old 13-03-2016, 10:30
dave_windows
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I think that's partly the industry's fault (it's incredibly 'who you know' and that makes it much harder for new talent to come through) and partly an issue of the show's status. The BBC aren't going to give it to an enthusiastic writer who doesn't have extensive experience but those who are established understand the risk of taking on DW. Their career is already going really well and do they want to risk it by taking over a show that has a real chance of poisoning that career?

Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are.
I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
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Old 13-03-2016, 10:33
Sam_Gee1
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
Chris still has a season on BroadChurch.
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Old 13-03-2016, 10:34
Michael_Eve
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
Chibbers is busy on Broadchurch 3 this year.

ETA Snap!
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Old 13-03-2016, 12:14
DiscoP
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I still dont see why we have to wait xmas and a full year next year before the new showrunner is for 2018. They should have removed Moff effectively this year and got Chris to debut his first story in charge this year.
Oh dear, your loathing of Moffat seems to have blinded you to the current situation...

Moffat didn't expect to return for series 10. He's said that he thought that the Christmas episode just aired would probably be his last, hence why he brought River back to conclude her arc. I suspect also that the fairy tale ending with them "all living happily ever after" was meant to close the chapter on his fairy tale take on Doctor Who.

The BBC wanted Chibnall to take over, but Chibnall was too busy with Broadchurch and so he wasn't available until 2018.

In the meantime Moffat signed up for another series of Sherlock but he agreed to continue with Doctor Who so that it wasn't left in the lurch. All this shuffling around and negotiating incurred a delay of approx. three months of filming, which would mean that Doctor Who will miss it's now usual autumn start date, but the show will actually be ready for broadcast from the beginning of 2017. The BBC are holding back until the Spring so that they can put it back in that less competitive slot and so that it can be shown earlier in the evenings as it won't have to fit around Strictly.

But as much as it probably turns your stomach to admit it, without Moffat agreeing to come back for series 10 the gap year which we are currently facing would probably be much larger.
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Old 13-03-2016, 12:19
DiscoP
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I think that's partly the industry's fault (it's incredibly 'who you know' and that makes it much harder for new talent to come through) and partly an issue of the show's status. The BBC aren't going to give it to an enthusiastic writer who doesn't have extensive experience but those who are established understand the risk of taking on DW. Their career is already going really well and do they want to risk it by taking over a show that has a real chance of poisoning that career?

Ideally they would've found a replacement over a year ago so he or she could've been working on series 10. Unfortunately, the replacement they convinced already has other commitments so we're in the situation we are.
I completely agree and I also get the impression that established writers prefer to work on their own series, rather than just be the custodian of an ongoing series for a number of years.

It's also been alluded to that Moffat and RTD before him were both knackered from working on the show and it seems to be rather all consuming. Which would certainly put off potential candidates. I wonder if there isn't anything that the BBC can do to help in this regard? Perhaps Doctor Who doesn't suit the single show runner model and a team of people would be a better fit?
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Old 13-03-2016, 14:49
CrowleySr
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I completely agree and I also get the impression that established writers prefer to work on their own series, rather than just be the custodian of an ongoing series for a number of years.

It's also been alluded to that Moffat and RTD before him were both knackered from working on the show and it seems to be rather all consuming. Which would certainly put off potential candidates. I wonder if there isn't anything that the BBC can do to help in this regard? Perhaps Doctor Who doesn't suit the single show runner model and a team of people would be a better fit?
Maybe hire one that's prepared to relocate to Cardiff? RTD lived in Manchester and SM in London, and both chose to commute in for meetings, filming, etc

If you read he Writer's Tale, there are times when RTD is emailing Benjamin Cook at 1\2am, and telling him he has a car coming for him at 6 to take him to Cardiff
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