Anyone agree? It gets a lot of stick but I personally really enjoyed it, I loved pretty much every episode bar Love and Monsters and Fear Her - but even that wasn't as bad as most people say. Single episodes like New Earth, Tooth and Claw and The Idiot's Lantern are underrated and the finale is my favourite ever...
Season 2 is underrated
1 of 3
One of my least favourite seasons. In New Who second least favourite season.
Didn't have the top quality episodes of all the other seasons, episode consistency was poor, weak arc, Rose turned into a *****, the relationship between Rose and The Doctor was also a no no.
Didn't have the top quality episodes of all the other seasons, episode consistency was poor, weak arc, Rose turned into a *****, the relationship between Rose and The Doctor was also a no no.
I don't know about underrated as it was a very successful series and is still adored by many people today.
For me, personally though, I can't say I liked too much, with it standing as my least favourite New Who series and one of my least favourites series of the overall show. Not a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor because he never felt much like the Doctor to me, being a bit too human and romantic rather than odd and enigmatic, and Rose lost any likeability she had this series (I assume they were trying to go for a flawed character, but I feel the bad vastly outweighed the good), and putting them together in a romantic, soap opera plot really bogged down the series. Not only did it make little sense with the Doctor's character but it turned the enticing bond between Doctor and companion into something cheap and silly. The way it was written, like much of RTD's writing, was trying too hard to be dramatic and sentimental and ended up feeling too contrived and artificial to really be very emotional. It felt more like RTD was writing a self-indulgent fanfic of these two characters he really liked together, rather than writing something convincing and with actual weight.
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace and The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit were pretty good episodes, though the first two had their flaws. Elizabeth Sladen returning is definitely a bonus, Moffat's plotting was very cleverly done, and the Ood story was very creepy and intense. Everything else I found ranged from mediocre to utterly terrible. Without sounding repetitive I really do find Love and Monsters and Fear Her to be among Doctor Who's worst episodes, and New Earth was also just terrible.
The finale had potential but the whole "Daleks vs Cybermen" thing just ended up being all glam and fireworks to fill in the gaps for a rather dull and cheesy goodbye story to a character I no longer cared for. The end scene at the beach just made me feel like I wasn't watching Doctor Who anymore but rather some teen soap drama.
For me, personally though, I can't say I liked too much, with it standing as my least favourite New Who series and one of my least favourites series of the overall show. Not a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor because he never felt much like the Doctor to me, being a bit too human and romantic rather than odd and enigmatic, and Rose lost any likeability she had this series (I assume they were trying to go for a flawed character, but I feel the bad vastly outweighed the good), and putting them together in a romantic, soap opera plot really bogged down the series. Not only did it make little sense with the Doctor's character but it turned the enticing bond between Doctor and companion into something cheap and silly. The way it was written, like much of RTD's writing, was trying too hard to be dramatic and sentimental and ended up feeling too contrived and artificial to really be very emotional. It felt more like RTD was writing a self-indulgent fanfic of these two characters he really liked together, rather than writing something convincing and with actual weight.
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace and The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit were pretty good episodes, though the first two had their flaws. Elizabeth Sladen returning is definitely a bonus, Moffat's plotting was very cleverly done, and the Ood story was very creepy and intense. Everything else I found ranged from mediocre to utterly terrible. Without sounding repetitive I really do find Love and Monsters and Fear Her to be among Doctor Who's worst episodes, and New Earth was also just terrible.
The finale had potential but the whole "Daleks vs Cybermen" thing just ended up being all glam and fireworks to fill in the gaps for a rather dull and cheesy goodbye story to a character I no longer cared for. The end scene at the beach just made me feel like I wasn't watching Doctor Who anymore but rather some teen soap drama.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“I don't know about underrated as it was a very successful series and is still adored by many people today.
For me, personally though, I can't say I liked too much, with it standing as my least favourite New Who series and one of my least favourites series of the overall show. Not a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor because he never felt much like the Doctor to me, being a bit too human and romantic rather than odd and enigmatic, and Rose lost any likeability she had this series (I assume they were trying to go for a flawed character, but I feel the bad vastly outweighed the good), and putting them together in a romantic, soap opera plot really bogged down the series. Not only did it make little sense with the Doctor's character but it turned the enticing bond between Doctor and companion into something cheap and silly. The way it was written, like much of RTD's writing, was trying too hard to be dramatic and sentimental and ended up feeling too contrived and artificial to really be very emotional. It felt more like RTD was writing a self-indulgent fanfic of these two characters he really liked together, rather than writing something convincing and with actual weight.
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace and The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit were pretty good episodes, though the first two had their flaws. Elizabeth Sladen returning is definitely a bonus, Moffat's plotting was very cleverly done, and the Ood story was very creepy and intense. Everything else I found ranged from mediocre to utterly terrible. Without sounding repetitive I really do find Love and Monsters and Fear Her to be among Doctor Who's worst episodes, and New Earth was also just terrible.
The finale had potential but the whole "Daleks vs Cybermen" thing just ended up being all glam and fireworks to fill in the gaps for a rather dull and cheesy goodbye story to a character I no longer cared for. The end scene at the beach just made me feel like I wasn't watching Doctor Who anymore but rather some teen soap drama.”
“I don't know about underrated as it was a very successful series and is still adored by many people today.
For me, personally though, I can't say I liked too much, with it standing as my least favourite New Who series and one of my least favourites series of the overall show. Not a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor because he never felt much like the Doctor to me, being a bit too human and romantic rather than odd and enigmatic, and Rose lost any likeability she had this series (I assume they were trying to go for a flawed character, but I feel the bad vastly outweighed the good), and putting them together in a romantic, soap opera plot really bogged down the series. Not only did it make little sense with the Doctor's character but it turned the enticing bond between Doctor and companion into something cheap and silly. The way it was written, like much of RTD's writing, was trying too hard to be dramatic and sentimental and ended up feeling too contrived and artificial to really be very emotional. It felt more like RTD was writing a self-indulgent fanfic of these two characters he really liked together, rather than writing something convincing and with actual weight.
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace and The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit were pretty good episodes, though the first two had their flaws. Elizabeth Sladen returning is definitely a bonus, Moffat's plotting was very cleverly done, and the Ood story was very creepy and intense. Everything else I found ranged from mediocre to utterly terrible. Without sounding repetitive I really do find Love and Monsters and Fear Her to be among Doctor Who's worst episodes, and New Earth was also just terrible.
The finale had potential but the whole "Daleks vs Cybermen" thing just ended up being all glam and fireworks to fill in the gaps for a rather dull and cheesy goodbye story to a character I no longer cared for. The end scene at the beach just made me feel like I wasn't watching Doctor Who anymore but rather some teen soap drama.”
Said it better than i ever could.
I overall liked the series in general. My favourite episode is by far School Reunion of New who series two.
Aren't there about 3 million previous threads on this very subject. I'm sure I've responded to this subject several times.
Completely agree with you, OP. . It's become the done thing to knock season 2 but for me it remains the best season of 2005+ Who - despite, ironically, containing in Love & Monsters the worst story in the history of Doctor Who, that's one (admittedly quite big) blip in an otherwise good quality season. And I'm including Fear Her when I say that, a decent enough story which (again) has become fashionable to knock but yet p!sses from a great height on, say, any of the dross from season 6.
Tooth & Claw and all three two-parters are highlights of this season and, of course, Sarah's return in School Reunion is a Doctor Who highlight full stop. Billie Piper and David Tennant work well together and the idea that Rose seems to have undergone some personality change from the character we had in season 1 is one that baffles me. Again, received wisdom. The character developed in her second series, sure, but isn't that what we want from characters? I remember at the time RTD saying that she was becoming more confident, even blasé in her attitude to whizzing around the galaxy fighting various menaces, and that this would eventually be her undoing. The character development makes perfect sense.
Tooth & Claw and all three two-parters are highlights of this season and, of course, Sarah's return in School Reunion is a Doctor Who highlight full stop. Billie Piper and David Tennant work well together and the idea that Rose seems to have undergone some personality change from the character we had in season 1 is one that baffles me. Again, received wisdom. The character developed in her second series, sure, but isn't that what we want from characters? I remember at the time RTD saying that she was becoming more confident, even blasé in her attitude to whizzing around the galaxy fighting various menaces, and that this would eventually be her undoing. The character development makes perfect sense.
I enjoy the second series, less for the sum of its parts and more for some of what it was doing as it went along.
From a creative standpoint the whole thing was bursting with variety and a sense of well-blended fun and drama. The first half of the series in particular remains one of my favourite times in the past decade story-wise. The first four standalone episodes were all incredibly different to each other, and in a good way. We got an alien planet, a historical figure, a contemporary story (complete with classic throwbacks), and a plot-driven period piece. For any flaws any of these episodes had, and all four had them, it was a bold and solid start that felt very strong at the time and still holds up now as a solid run of unique and different stories. Series 7 wanted to be this with its new-idea-every-week but simply didn't compare.
The series actually maintains some very good stories as it goes on. The Cyberman two-parter is decent, at times feeling like a bit of a retread of the Series 1 finale before it, but mostly carrying itself on the strength of good characters. The Idiot's Lantern sits awkwardly on its own, and has a horrendous script in places, but its guest cast is very good at least. The Satan two-parter is superb, and even if the rubber-bogey-in-a-thong ruined it entirely Love & Monsters was an interesting and different concept episode that was bold and actually quite fun until near the end. Fear Her was the first episode that was bad, as in really bad - hard to find redeeming factors it was simply dull to look at, dull to watch. The finale turns things around again though at times feels like a pale imitation of the first series finale - replacing space stations for offices in Cardiff which are passing for Canary Wharf.
So episode-wise the series holds up very well. The problems are more obvious when you look at the series as a whole. The Cybermen for starters, weren't as well received as the Daleks were the year before. And whilst the Daleks were more or less consigned to just two episodes of Series 1 (cliffhanger of Bad Wolf notwithstanding), here the Cybermen are given the run, or the stomp, of four episodes. To make things worse, they're also undermined by the reappearance of the Daleks in the finale which never amounts to a successful stand-off, more than a bitchy natter in the basement. Their two two-parters are so incredibly similar in tone and style that the series as a whole suffers... whereas at least in Series 1 there was an attempt to explore the Daleks from a 21st Century lone Dalek perspective, and a 201st Century Dalek army perspective. These little things matter, as again, the Cybermen were the focus of four episodes here, always in contemporary London - bringing us to the next issue.
It was likely down to financial difficulty and budgetary constraints but Series 2 really begins to suffer in terms of its contemporary London setting later on. The final four episodes are all set in contemporary London, largely on housing estates, not actually doing very much different from each other. To add insult to injury the following Christmas special and the first episode of Series 3 would largely be set in contemporary London as well. It wasn't until Gridlock that we managed to escape London altogether again! Originally Stephen Fry was in place to do a historical episode ahead of the finale but that never came to pass, and so we got a slur of stories all distinctly similar in tone to each other. This is without considering that School Reunion, the Cybermen two-parter and to some extent The Idiot's Lantern had already covered this look. For a show all about time and space travel, it was grounded for far too long.
Perhaps the biggest problem though was the lead characters. Rose felt as regenerated as the Doctor in places, and it didn't feel like natural character development. The romance of the two was played in such a way that it was full of gurning, smug moments and bitchy retorts that made the whole thing feel a bit more domestic. Series 1 pointed and laughed at anything domestic, but the second series just gave in to it entirely. Tennant, though not a bad actor, remains my least favourite Doctor in the role since 2005. His Doctor was too plain, too human... rather vanilla. It missed the point entirely, and the romance with Rose highlights that massively. It was a far cry from the more mysterious Eccleston, who was sorely missed at this point. It didn't help that Tennant spent his first story tucked up in bed, his second body swapping with Cassandra, his third 'putting on' a Scottish accent throughout, his fourth harking back to Classic Who, his fifth having a standalone romance with Madame de Pompadour and so on. Everything was at odds, conflicting with any sense of coherent character - there was a distinct lack of consistency to him early on that didn't play as 'finding himself' but played more like the writers weren't so sure what to do with him, and even more so a case of Tennant not quite knowing how to play him. I feel if you're a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor then Series 2 is riddled with nostalgic moments and promise that you've still got a lot of him to come. For those less won over, or for those missing the Ninth Doctor (which I did, but not to a point I was hung up on it) or for those who didn't like the romantic slant it is a series that isn't remembered as fondly, and in terms of its budgetary constraints limiting it to London suburbs so incredibly often it's the series out of the nine that I currently think is going to date the worst.
From a creative standpoint the whole thing was bursting with variety and a sense of well-blended fun and drama. The first half of the series in particular remains one of my favourite times in the past decade story-wise. The first four standalone episodes were all incredibly different to each other, and in a good way. We got an alien planet, a historical figure, a contemporary story (complete with classic throwbacks), and a plot-driven period piece. For any flaws any of these episodes had, and all four had them, it was a bold and solid start that felt very strong at the time and still holds up now as a solid run of unique and different stories. Series 7 wanted to be this with its new-idea-every-week but simply didn't compare.
The series actually maintains some very good stories as it goes on. The Cyberman two-parter is decent, at times feeling like a bit of a retread of the Series 1 finale before it, but mostly carrying itself on the strength of good characters. The Idiot's Lantern sits awkwardly on its own, and has a horrendous script in places, but its guest cast is very good at least. The Satan two-parter is superb, and even if the rubber-bogey-in-a-thong ruined it entirely Love & Monsters was an interesting and different concept episode that was bold and actually quite fun until near the end. Fear Her was the first episode that was bad, as in really bad - hard to find redeeming factors it was simply dull to look at, dull to watch. The finale turns things around again though at times feels like a pale imitation of the first series finale - replacing space stations for offices in Cardiff which are passing for Canary Wharf.
So episode-wise the series holds up very well. The problems are more obvious when you look at the series as a whole. The Cybermen for starters, weren't as well received as the Daleks were the year before. And whilst the Daleks were more or less consigned to just two episodes of Series 1 (cliffhanger of Bad Wolf notwithstanding), here the Cybermen are given the run, or the stomp, of four episodes. To make things worse, they're also undermined by the reappearance of the Daleks in the finale which never amounts to a successful stand-off, more than a bitchy natter in the basement. Their two two-parters are so incredibly similar in tone and style that the series as a whole suffers... whereas at least in Series 1 there was an attempt to explore the Daleks from a 21st Century lone Dalek perspective, and a 201st Century Dalek army perspective. These little things matter, as again, the Cybermen were the focus of four episodes here, always in contemporary London - bringing us to the next issue.
It was likely down to financial difficulty and budgetary constraints but Series 2 really begins to suffer in terms of its contemporary London setting later on. The final four episodes are all set in contemporary London, largely on housing estates, not actually doing very much different from each other. To add insult to injury the following Christmas special and the first episode of Series 3 would largely be set in contemporary London as well. It wasn't until Gridlock that we managed to escape London altogether again! Originally Stephen Fry was in place to do a historical episode ahead of the finale but that never came to pass, and so we got a slur of stories all distinctly similar in tone to each other. This is without considering that School Reunion, the Cybermen two-parter and to some extent The Idiot's Lantern had already covered this look. For a show all about time and space travel, it was grounded for far too long.
Perhaps the biggest problem though was the lead characters. Rose felt as regenerated as the Doctor in places, and it didn't feel like natural character development. The romance of the two was played in such a way that it was full of gurning, smug moments and bitchy retorts that made the whole thing feel a bit more domestic. Series 1 pointed and laughed at anything domestic, but the second series just gave in to it entirely. Tennant, though not a bad actor, remains my least favourite Doctor in the role since 2005. His Doctor was too plain, too human... rather vanilla. It missed the point entirely, and the romance with Rose highlights that massively. It was a far cry from the more mysterious Eccleston, who was sorely missed at this point. It didn't help that Tennant spent his first story tucked up in bed, his second body swapping with Cassandra, his third 'putting on' a Scottish accent throughout, his fourth harking back to Classic Who, his fifth having a standalone romance with Madame de Pompadour and so on. Everything was at odds, conflicting with any sense of coherent character - there was a distinct lack of consistency to him early on that didn't play as 'finding himself' but played more like the writers weren't so sure what to do with him, and even more so a case of Tennant not quite knowing how to play him. I feel if you're a huge fan of the Tenth Doctor then Series 2 is riddled with nostalgic moments and promise that you've still got a lot of him to come. For those less won over, or for those missing the Ninth Doctor (which I did, but not to a point I was hung up on it) or for those who didn't like the romantic slant it is a series that isn't remembered as fondly, and in terms of its budgetary constraints limiting it to London suburbs so incredibly often it's the series out of the nine that I currently think is going to date the worst.
Originally Posted by dan_:
“Anyone agree? It gets a lot of stick but I personally really enjoyed it, I loved pretty much every episode bar Love and Monsters and Fear Her - but even that wasn't as bad as most people say. Single episodes like New Earth, Tooth and Claw and The Idiot's Lantern are underrated and the finale is my favourite ever...”
“Anyone agree? It gets a lot of stick but I personally really enjoyed it, I loved pretty much every episode bar Love and Monsters and Fear Her - but even that wasn't as bad as most people say. Single episodes like New Earth, Tooth and Claw and The Idiot's Lantern are underrated and the finale is my favourite ever...”
I've commented on how good Series 2 many times on here so don't need to add to much more to what you and above posters have said.
I wish Love and Monsters and Fear weren't the two big spoilers of that years run but it's a small price to pay for an otherwise superb series.
The finale is far from dull and cheesy, certainly in comparison to recent years(which really has been dull) and is as dramatic as I could wish for from a series finale(Though admittedly the Cybermen could have put up a bit more of a fight)
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“Tennant, though not a bad actor, remains my least favourite Doctor in the role since 2005. His Doctor was too plain, too human... rather vanilla. It missed the point entirely, and the romance with Rose highlights that massively. It was a far cry from the more mysterious Eccleston, who was sorely missed at this point.”
“Tennant, though not a bad actor, remains my least favourite Doctor in the role since 2005. His Doctor was too plain, too human... rather vanilla. It missed the point entirely, and the romance with Rose highlights that massively. It was a far cry from the more mysterious Eccleston, who was sorely missed at this point.”
Tennant is a brilliant actor, arguably one of the most capable of all the people to play the Doctors, but different actors suit different roles and Tennant as the Doctor just didn't work, IMO. Though that may be largely down to how he was written. As you said, too vanilla... even a little clichéd in that he was the good looking and perfect hero who swooped in to save the day and got the girl. The way he kissed quite a few women throughout his tenure cemented to me that I just couldn't take him seriously in the role. Admittedly, I think they were trying to make something of a teenage heartthrob about him, which isn't what the character is about. As much as regeneration is supposed to be about change, it was simply too jarring from the general character and too dull and uninteresting on his own. I'm glad we didn't see Russell Tovey take over the role, as I feel it would have been more of the same, but I'm dreading Capaldi's replacement being a "Tennant clone" of sorts.
Eccleston, though a bit too "pub bloke" at times, had something about him that worked much better. He was kind of like something straight out of Buffy in that he was a ridiculous caricature of somebody ordinary, yet still had something mysterious and alien about him. He must have gave his all in his final episode because his performance there was stunning.
I loved the series maybe because it had my favourite two parter (The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit) and introduced a popular doctor/companion team
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“Eccleston, though a bit too "pub bloke" at times, had something about him that worked much better. He was kind of like something straight out of Buffy in that he was a ridiculous caricature of somebody ordinary, yet still had something mysterious and alien about him. He must have gave his all in his final episode because his performance there was stunning.”
“Eccleston, though a bit too "pub bloke" at times, had something about him that worked much better. He was kind of like something straight out of Buffy in that he was a ridiculous caricature of somebody ordinary, yet still had something mysterious and alien about him. He must have gave his all in his final episode because his performance there was stunning.”
I think it was that there was a knowingness to how odd it was that an alien had human traits. Sure, he was an alien... so why does he sound like he's from the north? Why does his jumper make him look like a bit of a navvy? When the girl wants to dance, he's resonating concrete. There was a definite nod to all the little human aspects that made Eccleston's Doctor relateable. But fundamentally he was still the guy who turned up and blew up a building in London, refused to let 'the domestics' in his TARDIS, and thought Rose was only beautiful in consideration of the fact he was human. Series 1 made that extra effort, every time he stepped a little close to being overly human Eccleston (and the writers) got the tone right and shifted it back - "Lots of planets have a north!", "You look beautiful...considering that you're human". Come Tennant in Series 2, we get something a lot more blunt, there was no alien to counteract the human side of the character, no other-worldliness about him. He was a guy in a suit who occasionally got a bit quirky and exciteable. Tennant was capable enough to sell the character as a respectable enough lead, but when you take his companions away from him and judge the stories on the merit of RTD's sublime writing of character and some of the guest cast giving it their all, Tennant's Doctor just feels unremarkable in nearly every way. Chuck in some less-than-desirable character traits - the egotism, the smugness, the knowing brilliance free of the resentment and regret that Eccleston carried - and it resulted in a far less well-rounded Doctor. I maintain that even with his Doctor being a little better in the fourth series, that even in four years on the show Tennant's interpretation of the character remained more hollow than Eccleston's was in just one.
My personal opinion is that Tennant, whilst a good actor, isn't amazing. I think his range is very limited once he's off the stage, where he seems far more suited. On television and in film it's just vaguely different hues of the same thing over and over for me. I don't think he sells drama/angst/anger very well at all - though admittedly the show seldom gave him the chance, even copping out when it had the chance to explore the 'Time Lord victorious' aspect at the end of his run.
I adore season 2 and, for me, it remains one of the strongest seasons since the show returned (bettered only by season 4).
The Tennant/Piper pairing was just superb and has clearly stood the test of time, considering the ongoing popularity of the 10th Doctor and Rose.
Great individual episodes, a superb but subtle season arc and all leading up to a genuinely iconic and heartbreaking climax.
And this is, of course, the season that gave us that superb Dalek/Cybermen cat fight and brought Sarah Jane Smith back to Doctor Who!
I don't think it is underrated, however. Perhaps on this forum, but I would say outside of fan forums it is still held up as an example of New Who at its best.
The Tennant/Piper pairing was just superb and has clearly stood the test of time, considering the ongoing popularity of the 10th Doctor and Rose.
Great individual episodes, a superb but subtle season arc and all leading up to a genuinely iconic and heartbreaking climax.
And this is, of course, the season that gave us that superb Dalek/Cybermen cat fight and brought Sarah Jane Smith back to Doctor Who!
I don't think it is underrated, however. Perhaps on this forum, but I would say outside of fan forums it is still held up as an example of New Who at its best.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“I... his second body swapping with Cassandra....”
“I... his second body swapping with Cassandra....”
This is a great post, as usual, Abomination, and I agree with nearly all of it ... but ... wasn't it Rose, not the Doctor, who body swapped with Cassandra ?
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“My personal opinion is that Tennant, whilst a good actor, isn't amazing. I think his range is very limited once he's off the stage, where he seems far more suited. On television and in film it's just vaguely different hues of the same thing over and over for me. I don't think he sells drama/angst/anger very well at all - though admittedly the show seldom gave him the chance, even copping out when it had the chance to explore the 'Time Lord victorious' aspect at the end of his run.”
“My personal opinion is that Tennant, whilst a good actor, isn't amazing. I think his range is very limited once he's off the stage, where he seems far more suited. On television and in film it's just vaguely different hues of the same thing over and over for me. I don't think he sells drama/angst/anger very well at all - though admittedly the show seldom gave him the chance, even copping out when it had the chance to explore the 'Time Lord victorious' aspect at the end of his run.”
Urgh, don't even get me started on that again. :P That could have made for such a brilliant and in-depth character piece on the downfall of the Tenth Doctor, yet The End of Time comes and, as though there'd been a last minute change in the previous episode they forgot to compensate for, acts as though it hadn't happened and instead gives us the Doctor frowning and sulking. It's like being given a cup of tea and then having it snatched back.
Back to Series 2, though, the budget constraints being the reason behind the frequent setting of London's estates never gelled with me. Classic Who very often struggled with budget and yet they still gave us such atmospheric and mystifying alien worlds. Admittedly, there's a higher demand for what constitues that these days and they couldn't just use tin foil and cardboard, but I think a little creativity in how to work around that could have made the world of difference.
Originally Posted by prof_travers:
“This is a great post, as usual, Abomination, and I agree with nearly all of it ... but ... wasn't it Rose, not the Doctor, who body swapped with Cassandra ?”
“This is a great post, as usual, Abomination, and I agree with nearly all of it ... but ... wasn't it Rose, not the Doctor, who body swapped with Cassandra ?”
They both did. And it was SUPERB!!!
Originally Posted by prof_travers:
“This is a great post, as usual, Abomination, and I agree with nearly all of it ... but ... wasn't it Rose, not the Doctor, who body swapped with Cassandra ?”
“This is a great post, as usual, Abomination, and I agree with nearly all of it ... but ... wasn't it Rose, not the Doctor, who body swapped with Cassandra ?”
For much of the time, yes, however Cassandra also swapped with the Doctor at points too. I will never unsee the whole 'Oh baby I'm beating out a samba!" scene.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“Urgh, don't even get me started on that again. :P That could have made for such a brilliant and in-depth character piece on the downfall of the Tenth Doctor, yet The End of Time comes and, as though there'd been a last minute change in the previous episode they forgot to compensate for, acts as though it hadn't happened and instead gives us the Doctor frowning and sulking. It's like being given a cup of tea and then having it snatched back.
Back to Series 2, though, the budget constraints being the reason behind the frequent setting of London's estates never gelled with me. Classic Who very often struggled with budget and yet they still gave us such atmospheric and mystifying alien worlds. Admittedly, there's a higher demand for what constitues that these days and they couldn't just use tin foil and cardboard, but I think a little creativity in how to work around that could have made the world of difference.”
“Urgh, don't even get me started on that again. :P That could have made for such a brilliant and in-depth character piece on the downfall of the Tenth Doctor, yet The End of Time comes and, as though there'd been a last minute change in the previous episode they forgot to compensate for, acts as though it hadn't happened and instead gives us the Doctor frowning and sulking. It's like being given a cup of tea and then having it snatched back.
Back to Series 2, though, the budget constraints being the reason behind the frequent setting of London's estates never gelled with me. Classic Who very often struggled with budget and yet they still gave us such atmospheric and mystifying alien worlds. Admittedly, there's a higher demand for what constitues that these days and they couldn't just use tin foil and cardboard, but I think a little creativity in how to work around that could have made the world of difference.”
Agreed entirely about the Specials. Part One remains my second least favourite episode ever, and it's probably always going to be the one that disappointed me the most.
Also agreed about being a bit more creative with the second series. I don't know how short they were caught out without a script for the eleventh episode, but it's depressing to look at the rich start to Series 2 - New Earth, Scotland, London, Versailles and then finish with London, London, London, London. When budget issues strike you get more creative with the stories, but out of those four we have two of the most heavily criticised stories of all time (though I personally think Love & Monsters is generally okay until the atrocious alien reveal) and the finale was a rather straightforward continuation of the story set up with the Cybermen earlier in the series.
Season 2? David Tennant and Billie Piper? Aren't they the definitive Doctor/Companion combination of NuWho?
I wouldn't say season 2 was underrated.
I wouldn't say season 2 was underrated.
S2 to me is a mixed bag, overall my least favourite New Who series but with some really good stories mixed in with the not so good.
To be fair to RTD, they were still experimenting with the format of the show, Love and Monsters being the first "Doctor-lite" episode AND the first attempt at something different from the usual Doctor and Companion fighting alien monster story. A failure, but an honourable failure of an episode
To be fair to RTD, they were still experimenting with the format of the show, Love and Monsters being the first "Doctor-lite" episode AND the first attempt at something different from the usual Doctor and Companion fighting alien monster story. A failure, but an honourable failure of an episode
Originally Posted by dan_:
“ Single episodes like New Earth... are underrated”
“ Single episodes like New Earth... are underrated”
*Snicker*... *psst*... *chortle*... *guffaw*
Sorry, I know I should be constructive and not sneer but the plot (and especially the resolution) of that episode is one of the most infantile (in the literal sense of being like a plot an infant would come up with) Sci-Fi concepts I've ever seen. On top of that the 'comedy' performances by Tennant and Piper are beyond cringeworthy. It really is one of those episodes that reminds us that RTD may be a master of popular drama but is not really a natural or accomplished Science Fiction writer.
Honestly, the plot resolution could have been out of Whizzer & Chips.
On the wider topic of the season I'll state that the only episodes I honestly could say I actually consider good are 'The girl in the Fireplace' and 'Love & Monsters'. They are well written episodes and good showcases for Doctor Who. The rest is a mixture of disaster (New Earth, The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her, School reunion - the latter of which seemed to be well-received simply for bringing back Sarah-Jane, without recognition for the fact that the episode itself was terrible), boring (Tooth & Claw, all the Cybermen episodes) and... over-blown melodrama that is not to my taste (the finale).
If I had been watching the series live (at that point in time I wasn't) then I don't know what I would have made of it. I don't think I'd have stuck with the show. Luckily I watched most of it years later when I rediscovered interest int he show.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“For much of the time, yes, however Cassandra also swapped with the Doctor at points too. I will never unsee the whole 'Oh baby I'm beating out a samba!" scene.
Agreed entirely about the Specials. Part One remains my second least favourite episode ever, and it's probably always going to be the one that disappointed me the most.
Also agreed about being a bit more creative with the second series. I don't know how short they were caught out without a script for the eleventh episode, but it's depressing to look at the rich start to Series 2 - New Earth, Scotland, London, Versailles and then finish with London, London, London, London. When budget issues strike you get more creative with the stories, but out of those four we have two of the most heavily criticised stories of all time (though I personally think Love & Monsters is generally okay until the atrocious alien reveal) and the finale was a rather straightforward continuation of the story set up with the Cybermen earlier in the series.”
“For much of the time, yes, however Cassandra also swapped with the Doctor at points too. I will never unsee the whole 'Oh baby I'm beating out a samba!" scene.
Agreed entirely about the Specials. Part One remains my second least favourite episode ever, and it's probably always going to be the one that disappointed me the most.
Also agreed about being a bit more creative with the second series. I don't know how short they were caught out without a script for the eleventh episode, but it's depressing to look at the rich start to Series 2 - New Earth, Scotland, London, Versailles and then finish with London, London, London, London. When budget issues strike you get more creative with the stories, but out of those four we have two of the most heavily criticised stories of all time (though I personally think Love & Monsters is generally okay until the atrocious alien reveal) and the finale was a rather straightforward continuation of the story set up with the Cybermen earlier in the series.”
And even so, Pertwee's first few years were intentionally earthbound and they managed to create a feeling of mystery and wonder about the interesting alien threats or allies. There were the Autons, the Silurians, the Axons, the Ambassadors, the Sea Devils and Azal. In comparison Series 2 of New Who had Peter Kay as a demonic bogey and a literal giant scribble.
I feel this way about much of the RTD era, but this applies to Series 2 especially: in my opinion it just lacked the magic and that "weird and wonderful" charm that I associate with Doctor Who. The array of lovable but frightening monsters and mysterious planets were neglected in favour of an insubstantial attempt to turn the show into a heartfelt and campy drama, like a soap opera in space.
Originally Posted by Lord Smexy:
“And even so, Pertwee's first few years were intentionally earthbound and they managed to create a feeling of mystery and wonder about the interesting alien threats or allies. There were the Autons, the Silurians, the Axons, the Ambassadors, the Sea Devils and Azal. In comparison Series 2 of New Who had Peter Kay as a demonic bogey and a literal giant scribble.
I feel this way about much of the RTD era, but this applies to Series 2 especially: in my opinion it just lacked the magic and that "weird and wonderful" charm that I associate with Doctor Who. The array of lovable but frightening monsters and mysterious planets were neglected in favour of an insubstantial attempt to turn the show into a heartfelt and campy drama, like a soap opera in space.”
“And even so, Pertwee's first few years were intentionally earthbound and they managed to create a feeling of mystery and wonder about the interesting alien threats or allies. There were the Autons, the Silurians, the Axons, the Ambassadors, the Sea Devils and Azal. In comparison Series 2 of New Who had Peter Kay as a demonic bogey and a literal giant scribble.
I feel this way about much of the RTD era, but this applies to Series 2 especially: in my opinion it just lacked the magic and that "weird and wonderful" charm that I associate with Doctor Who. The array of lovable but frightening monsters and mysterious planets were neglected in favour of an insubstantial attempt to turn the show into a heartfelt and campy drama, like a soap opera in space.”
AS I noted above though, RTD isn't really a Sci-Fi writer. He wrote to his strengths and those strengths proved very popular. Judging by some of his Sci-Fi concepts and the execution of them we should be thankful that he gave short thrift to that aspect generally as the show really would not have been very good if he hadn't.
This is one of the things people fail to accept about Love & Monsters, which I consider excellent: it's a sentimental comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously. It isn't an episode of Doctor Who with some humour in it, it's a humorous episode of Doctor who: subtle but important difference. To say one didn't find it amusing would be fair, though extremely subjective, criticism. To criticize by saying one couldn't take the Abzorbaloff seriously is rather missing the point. One may as well criticize Black Adder for being historically inaccurate. The history is in service of the humour. In Love & Monsters the Sci-Fi / fantasy is in service to the humour.
Actually, I sometimes feel that episodes which should have been principally dramatic are over-leavened with humour, which detracts from the drama and lessens the effectiveness of the humour... but an intrinsically comedic episode is an idea I'm all for on occasion. Some of my favourite episodes are the old Hartnell comedy historicals.
It was a different episode of Doctor Who and it succeeded on its own terms and is actually well-written. I understand that the majority of the audience didn't want that kind of treatment for Doctor Who and that's fair enough but to say it's rubbish is wide of the mark. Frankly, I would take a bold episode like this any day of the week over ultra-generic and boring episodes like 'Tooth & Claw'.
And like it or not, after possibly 'The Girl in the Fireplace' and the ending of the finale it has remained the most well-remembered episode of that season. Not being instantly forgettable is something of a plus for an episode of a show that is 50 years old. God, can't they do something a bit different once in a while?
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“AS I noted above though, RTD isn't really a Sci-Fi writer. He wrote to his strengths and those strengths proved very popular. Judging by some of his Sci-Fi concepts and the execution of them we should be thankful that he gave short thrift to that aspect generally as the show really would not have been very good if he hadn't.
This is one of the things people fail to accept about Love & Monsters, which I consider excellent: it's a sentimental comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously. It isn't an episode of Doctor Who with some humour in it, it's a humorous episode of Doctor who: subtle but important difference. To say one didn't find it amusing would be fair, though extremely subjective, criticism. To criticize by saying one couldn't take the Abzorbaloff seriously is rather missing the point. One may as well criticize Black Adder for being historically inaccurate. The history is in service of the humour. In Love & Monsters the Sci-Fi / fantasy is in service to the humour.
Actually, I sometimes feel that episodes which should have been principally dramatic are over-leavened with humour, which detracts from the drama and lessens the effectiveness of the humour... but an intrinsically comedic episode is an idea I'm all for on occasion. Some of my favourite episodes are the old Hartnell comedy historicals.
It was a different episode of Doctor Who and it succeeded on its own terms and is actually well-written. I understand that the majority of the audience didn't want that kind of treatment for Doctor Who and that's fair enough but to say it's rubbish is wide of the mark. Frankly, I would take a bold episode like this any day of the week over ultra-generic and boring episodes like 'Tooth & Claw'.
And like it or not, after possibly 'The Girl in the Fireplace' and the ending of the finale it has remained the most well-remembered episode of that season. Not being instantly forgettable is something of a plus for an episode of a show that is 50 years old. God, can't they do something a bit different once in a while?”
“AS I noted above though, RTD isn't really a Sci-Fi writer. He wrote to his strengths and those strengths proved very popular. Judging by some of his Sci-Fi concepts and the execution of them we should be thankful that he gave short thrift to that aspect generally as the show really would not have been very good if he hadn't.
This is one of the things people fail to accept about Love & Monsters, which I consider excellent: it's a sentimental comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously. It isn't an episode of Doctor Who with some humour in it, it's a humorous episode of Doctor who: subtle but important difference. To say one didn't find it amusing would be fair, though extremely subjective, criticism. To criticize by saying one couldn't take the Abzorbaloff seriously is rather missing the point. One may as well criticize Black Adder for being historically inaccurate. The history is in service of the humour. In Love & Monsters the Sci-Fi / fantasy is in service to the humour.
Actually, I sometimes feel that episodes which should have been principally dramatic are over-leavened with humour, which detracts from the drama and lessens the effectiveness of the humour... but an intrinsically comedic episode is an idea I'm all for on occasion. Some of my favourite episodes are the old Hartnell comedy historicals.
It was a different episode of Doctor Who and it succeeded on its own terms and is actually well-written. I understand that the majority of the audience didn't want that kind of treatment for Doctor Who and that's fair enough but to say it's rubbish is wide of the mark. Frankly, I would take a bold episode like this any day of the week over ultra-generic and boring episodes like 'Tooth & Claw'.
And like it or not, after possibly 'The Girl in the Fireplace' and the ending of the finale it has remained the most well-remembered episode of that season. Not being instantly forgettable is something of a plus for an episode of a show that is 50 years old. God, can't they do something a bit different once in a while?”
I really wanted to like Love and Monsters, because the concept was truly inspired and something that could generate enough idea to make its own series. But I'm afraid the execution was just too poorly done, in my opinion. The characters were flat and their contact with the Doctor never really explored, the humour was hanky and awkward, the Abzorbaloff was a terrifying concept pulled off dreadfully (I don't imagine the kid's drawing specifically said "Peter Kay running around in a fetish costume with constipation") and that entire section with Jackie was cringey to watch.
I don't think that series 2 or the 10/Rose relationship are underrated amongst the general population, but in the world of this forum they certainly are.
I often get the impression on here that series 2 is seen as somewhat of a bum note, and as for Rose, she generally always comes in the top three of companion polls and is still fondly remembered in the mainstream, yet on this forum you can barely find anyone to say a good word about her, and those who do mostly act like she was only good with Eccleston.
Apart from the mis-steps of Love and Monsters and Fear Her (neither of which are even close to being half as bad as in the forest of the night), the series was very strong for me. Every episode apart from the two mentioned above was enjoyable. Not many writers could pull of a finale which combined the juggling of the heavy sci fi element of daleks v cybermen, but also make it a finale which was so emotional and contained doctor and Rose parting scene's both in the torchwood building itself, and then the beach farewell scene that are, in my opinion, still unbeaten in the show in terms of believable raw emotion from both Tennant and Piper.
10 and Rose remains my favourite pairing, and I find it completely believable through the acting and writing that with her bond with 9 gradually becoming more intense that it would progress that bit further still the longer she stayed with him as 10.
I often get the impression on here that series 2 is seen as somewhat of a bum note, and as for Rose, she generally always comes in the top three of companion polls and is still fondly remembered in the mainstream, yet on this forum you can barely find anyone to say a good word about her, and those who do mostly act like she was only good with Eccleston.
Apart from the mis-steps of Love and Monsters and Fear Her (neither of which are even close to being half as bad as in the forest of the night), the series was very strong for me. Every episode apart from the two mentioned above was enjoyable. Not many writers could pull of a finale which combined the juggling of the heavy sci fi element of daleks v cybermen, but also make it a finale which was so emotional and contained doctor and Rose parting scene's both in the torchwood building itself, and then the beach farewell scene that are, in my opinion, still unbeaten in the show in terms of believable raw emotion from both Tennant and Piper.
10 and Rose remains my favourite pairing, and I find it completely believable through the acting and writing that with her bond with 9 gradually becoming more intense that it would progress that bit further still the longer she stayed with him as 10.
Enjoyed it at the time, but it's not a series I really revisit often, although thought 'The Satan Pit' 2 partner was exceptionally good. Definitely the highlight. A mixed bag.
Then again, most series of Who I've found a mixed bag to a certain degree! SM, RTD, JNT, even Hinchcliffe Letts and Lambert. It's just a question of degrees then as far as my fanboy, or is it fanboi?,rankings are concerned. Then again, apparently some people on this forum can't stand Series 6, which I personally found strong and contains some of my favourite C21 episodes! Am I bovvered? Naaaahhh! S'all good. All subjective.
Then again, most series of Who I've found a mixed bag to a certain degree! SM, RTD, JNT, even Hinchcliffe Letts and Lambert. It's just a question of degrees then as far as my fanboy, or is it fanboi?,rankings are concerned. Then again, apparently some people on this forum can't stand Series 6, which I personally found strong and contains some of my favourite C21 episodes! Am I bovvered? Naaaahhh! S'all good. All subjective.
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