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Season 2 is underrated |
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#26 |
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I don't think that series 2 or the 10/Rose relationship are underrated amongst the general population, but in the world of this forum they certainly are.
I often get the impression on here that series 2 is seen as somewhat of a bum note, and as for Rose, she generally always comes in the top three of companion polls and is still fondly remembered in the mainstream, yet on this forum you can barely find anyone to say a good word about her, and those who do mostly act like she was only good with Eccleston. Apart from the mis-steps of Love and Monsters and Fear Her (neither of which are even close to being half as bad as in the forest of the night), the series was very strong for me. Every episode apart from the two mentioned above was enjoyable. Not many writers could pull of a finale which combined the juggling of the heavy sci fi element of daleks v cybermen, but also make it a finale which was so emotional and contained doctor and Rose parting scene's both in the torchwood building itself, and then the beach farewell scene that are, in my opinion, still unbeaten in the show in terms of believable raw emotion from both Tennant and Piper. 10 and Rose remains my favourite pairing, and I find it completely believable through the acting and writing that with her bond with 9 gradually becoming more intense that it would progress that bit further still the longer she stayed with him as 10. |
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#27 |
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Season 2 is the weakest of Tennant's era IMO, but is still MILES above the whole of the Smith tenure.
Thankfully with Capaldi the show has nearly returned to the heights of the Eccleston/Tennant days. |
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#28 |
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As if no one's complained about the use of "season" over "series" and moaned that we're not Americans, or made a joke about season 2 having been on in 1964 or something! Where are all the loopy pedants and Ming-Mongs?!
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#29 |
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As if no one's complained about the use of "season" over "series" and moaned that we're not Americans, or made a joke about season 2 having been on in 1964 or something! Where are all the loopy pedants and Ming-Mongs?!
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#30 |
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I can get on board here! Love The Rescue. Heroic, funny, vulnerable Doctor. One of my favourite Hartnell performances.
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#31 |
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I can get on board here! Love The Rescue. Heroic, funny, vulnerable Doctor. One of my favourite Hartnell performances.
The Romans was quite fun too, though I didn't quite know what to think of rapey Emperor Nero spending half the story chasing Barbara around his palace. |
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#32 |
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Season 2 is the best Hartnell Season by far!
The Romans was awesomely funny, The Crusade was awesomely written, The Time Meddler was just plain awesome but The Web Planet was awesomely awful!
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#33 |
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I feel this way about much of the RTD era, but this applies to Series 2 especially: in my opinion it just lacked the magic and that "weird and wonderful" charm that I associate with Doctor Who. The array of lovable but frightening monsters and mysterious planets were neglected in favour of an insubstantial attempt to turn the show into a heartfelt and campy drama, like a soap opera in space.
Love & Monsters similarly plays the tone all wrong in the end, which is a shame as I'd concur with others that the episode was actually largely inoffensive and even rather good in places. It proved itself capable of substantial drama as well as laughs, with the superb scenes with Jackie. Camille Coduri gave her finest performance here I feel, and it was a testament to RTD's sublime writing of character. I wasn't lamenting the absence of Rose in this story, this was Jackie's moment and I was enjoying it for that. This was Elton's story and I was enjoying it for that. But then the alien was revealed at the end, and it was played up to laughs in a way that totally mismatched the drama going on. The laughs were awkward and largely non-existent, with Peter Kay quipping that the love interest of the piece tastes like chicken. It wanted to have its cake and eat it, pull at the heartstrings whilst also having you laugh at how preposterous the whole thing was. It was tonally all over the place by the end. It was a problem found with various stories throughout the series, in small and large doses, right through to its very last scene (I love Donna, but her debut in Doomsday needlessly jars in an emotional conclusion. The show needs to have the confidence to run with sadness, but it so seldom does... that much remains true all the way through to Series 9). And for me, personally, it wasn't able to then fall back on the strength of its lead duo - because even they felt tonally mismatched, a romantic far cry from the more mysterious dynamic from the series before. |
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#34 |
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Season 2 is the best Hartnell Season by far!
The Romans was awesomely funny, The Crusade was awesomely written, The Time Meddler was just plain awesome but The Web Planet was awesomely awful! ![]() |
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#35 |
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I think The Rescue gets overlooked a lot for its short length and Koquillion's very in-your-face design, but it was a very enjoyable story. Vicki was the first companion to take over from somebody else and unlike Susan she was human, so it was the first we saw such an innocent and naive lead character but it helped make her such a lovable addition. In contrast, Barbara, Ian and the Doctor also had grown into much more confident characters by this point which helped cement their strength.
The Romans was quite fun too, though I didn't quite know what to think of rapey Emperor Nero spending half the story chasing Barbara around his palace. |
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#36 |
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Yay! Sanity is restored!!!
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#37 |
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I don't think that series 2 or the 10/Rose relationship are underrated amongst the general population, but in the world of this forum they certainly are.
I often get the impression on here that series 2 is seen as somewhat of a bum note, and as for Rose, she generally always comes in the top three of companion polls and is still fondly remembered in the mainstream, yet on this forum you can barely find anyone to say a good word about her, and those who do mostly act like she was only good with Eccleston. Apart from the mis-steps of Love and Monsters and Fear Her (neither of which are even close to being half as bad as in the forest of the night), the series was very strong for me. Every episode apart from the two mentioned above was enjoyable. Not many writers could pull of a finale which combined the juggling of the heavy sci fi element of daleks v cybermen, but also make it a finale which was so emotional and contained doctor and Rose parting scene's both in the torchwood building itself, and then the beach farewell scene that are, in my opinion, still unbeaten in the show in terms of believable raw emotion from both Tennant and Piper. 10 and Rose remains my favourite pairing, and I find it completely believable through the acting and writing that with her bond with 9 gradually becoming more intense that it would progress that bit further still the longer she stayed with him as 10. Also special mentions to Susan, Tegan and Mels departures too. The premise of most classic series companions is quite ludicrous of course, with them usually behaving completely out of of character or falling in love at the drop of a hat to suddenly up and leave but that was part of the charm of the classic series, and at least their final scenes were nicely done
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#38 |
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Nah if you want to see a decent parting scene between a Doctor and his companion you should watch the last 5 minutes of the Green Death. None of this balling your eyes out like a big girls blouse nonsense, Pertwee's Doc had far too much dignity and class for that sort of thing (he may well have been blubbing as he drove off into the sunset with Bessie but we the audience don't need to see that). Also the viewers are free to read whatever they like into the Doctor and Jo's relationship without being hit over the head by a hammer with it. Personally I would always go for understated. It probably helps if you watch a few more episodes with Jo and the Doctor as well to understand their dynamic. In fact I would recommend watching the whole of the Green Death. The effects are laughable of course, and at 6 episodes it tends to plod along but the plot feels like it could have been written yesterday, quite remarkable for something which was written over 40 years ago.
Also special mentions to Susan, Tegan and Mels departures too. The premise of most classic series companions is quite ludicrous of course, with them usually behaving completely out of of character or falling in love at the drop of a hat to suddenly up and leave but that was part of the charm of the classic series, and at least their final scenes were nicely done ![]() |
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#39 |
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No characters off the top of my head left suddenly and "out of character', couple come close like Leela, but not even her. Susan fell in love, The Doctor didn't let her leave with him, Ian and Barbara always wanted to leave if they arrived at there own time. Like Ben and Polly, Dodo. Victoria's heart was never in it to begin with, she was dealing with her father's death, Jamie and Zoe got there memories wiped. Tegan couldn't go on anymore because of all the death and destruction, which becomes increasingly evident after Adric's death, same can be said for Nyssa. Etc etc etc
Dodo's departure was for me quite sudden as there was no goodbye scene, she was just written out via exposition from other characters. She just walked out of a scene never to be seen again. I didn't like the character but still feel she deserved better.
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#40 |
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Nah if you want to see a decent parting scene between a Doctor and his companion you should watch the last 5 minutes of the Green Death. None of this balling your eyes out like a big girls blouse nonsense, Pertwee's Doc had far too much dignity and class for that sort of thing (he may well have been blubbing as he drove off into the sunset with Bessie but we the audience don't need to see that). Also the viewers are free to read whatever they like into the Doctor and Jo's relationship without being hit over the head by a hammer with it. Personally I would always go for understated. It probably helps if you watch a few more episodes with Jo and the Doctor as well to understand their dynamic. In fact I would recommend watching the whole of the Green Death. The effects are laughable of course, and at 6 episodes it tends to plod along but the plot feels like it could have been written yesterday, quite remarkable for something which was written over 40 years ago.
Also special mentions to Susan, Tegan and Mels departures too. The premise of most classic series companions is quite ludicrous of course, with them usually behaving completely out of of character or falling in love at the drop of a hat to suddenly up and leave but that was part of the charm of the classic series, and at least their final scenes were nicely done ![]() Tegan's exit never gelled with me, though. She said she was leaving the TARDIS because it had "stopped being fun" but I never got the impression she had ever had fun travelling, when she was always moaning about it and wanting to get beck teh the Tairdis. |
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#41 |
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I would disagree about Leela slightly. I would suggest her falling in love was totally out of character as she was a savage warrior. You look at the scene in Underworld were she gets zapped by a ray that makes her all loved up for a few minutes The Doctor points out that it isn't her at all.
Dodo's departure was for me quite sudden as there was no goodbye scene, she was just written out via exposition from other characters. She just walked out of a scene never to be seen again. I didn't like the character but still feel she deserved better. ![]() |
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#42 |
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No characters off the top of my head left suddenly and "out of character', couple come close like Leela, but not even her. Susan fell in love, The Doctor didn't let her leave with him, Ian and Barbara always wanted to leave if they arrived at there own time. Like Ben and Polly, Dodo. Victoria's heart was never in it to begin with, she was dealing with her father's death, Jamie and Zoe got there memories wiped. Tegan couldn't go on anymore because of all the death and destruction, which becomes increasingly evident after Adric's death, same can be said for Nyssa. Etc etc etc
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#43 |
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Jo's exit is easily one of the most heartbreaking in terms of execution. It didn't feel the need to force it down your throat that you were supposed to be sad, like Doomsday, it was just a simple and quiet ending, which made it all the more effective. IMO, the Third Doctor and Jo were just a much better pairing too, having such a solid bond without resorting to the cheapness of a love plot.
Tegan's exit never gelled with me, though. She said she was leaving the TARDIS because it had "stopped being fun" but I never got the impression she had ever had fun travelling, when she was always moaning about it and wanting to get beck teh the Tairdis. Also what was the relationship between the Doctor and Jo? Was there a sexual chemistry between them? Was it paternal? Were they just mates? It's never defined and it doesn't need to be, allowing the viewers to make up their own minds and read what they like into it. I love that sort of thing. It fires up the imagination, it gets the creative juices going and I think it's a shame that so much of that is missing in today's TV. |
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#44 |
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I agree, I love the subtly and ambiguity of it all. This isn't really a direct criticism of series 2 or of RTD as Moffats Who can be the same at times, it's more of a general comment about TV drama these days but I do despair that everything has to be spelled out for the viewers. You don't need to see the Doctor being heartbroken to tell that he is, and that one look that Jo gives the Doctor as she sees him leaving the party and she clutches Jones arm tighter for comfort is worth 1,000 lines of dialogue. It's all done with the looks and the pauses and the silences and it's beautiful in it's simplicity.
Also what was the relationship between the Doctor and Jo? Was there a sexual chemistry between them? Was it paternal? Were they just mates? It's never defined and it doesn't need to be, allowing the viewers to make up their own minds and read what they like into it. I love that sort of thing. It fires up the imagination, it gets the creative juices going and I think it's a shame that so much of that is missing in today's TV. There was indeed a lot of ambiguity with the Third Doctor and Jo, but I think it's also safe to say the Doctor played a very paternal role to her, almost like he was the crazy uncle and she was the lovable niece, and I find that a far more interesting dynamic than the overdone love story which I personally think crops up far too often in fiction. I think the Doctor makes for a much more enduring character when he's written as a "crazy uncle" rather than boyfriend material, which is what they sometimes seemed to go for with Tennant and Smith. |
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#45 |
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Also what was the relationship between the Doctor and Jo? Was there a sexual chemistry between them? Was it paternal? Were they just mates? It's never defined and it doesn't need to be, allowing the viewers to make up their own minds and read what they like into it. I love that sort of thing. It fires up the imagination, it gets the creative juices going and I think it's a shame that so much of that is missing in today's TV. Quote:
There was indeed a lot of ambiguity with the Third Doctor and Jo, but I think it's also safe to say the Doctor played a very paternal role to her, almost like he was the crazy uncle and she was the lovable niece, and I find that a far more interesting dynamic than the overdone love story which I personally think crops up far too often in fiction. I think the Doctor makes for a much more enduring character when he's written as a "crazy uncle" rather than boyfriend material, which is what they sometimes seemed to go for with Tennant and Smith. Quote:
Yes, I probably did exaggerate a little when I said most of the classic companions suddenly left for out of character reasons as I was thinking mainly of the four examples that I gave when I wrote that. I guess the great love affairs of Susan, Jo and Leela played out better over the course of several weeks but when watched back to back it sure does seem that they make life changing decisions rather quickly, especially with Leela who barely shared half a scene with Andred. I don't really buy Teegan suddenly having enough of the violence either as there was no build up to it and as for Mel deciding to stay behind with Glitz, well I think most people were just so glad to be rid of Mel that they didn't really care what the reason was but it does seem like rather a strange choice for her to have made. But like I say although the reasons for their departures were sometimes a bit whacky they all did have very nice final scenes.
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Okay i can agree about Leela, i haven't watched Dodo's time for a while now, so i could be wrong. But i never got the impression she was part of the TARDIS forever crew, she entered the TARDIS by accident, and i assume like Ian and Barbara, would stay on Earth if she ever got there in the right time.
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#46 |
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I would disagree about Leela slightly. I would suggest her falling in love was totally out of character as she was a savage warrior. You look at the scene in Underworld were she gets zapped by a ray that makes her all loved up for a few minutes The Doctor points out that it isn't her at all.
Dodo's departure was for me quite sudden as there was no goodbye scene, she was just written out via exposition from other characters. She just walked out of a scene never to be seen again. I didn't like the character but still feel she deserved better. ![]() She would fit perfectly into that culture. If they had done that and, you know, given them scenes together interacting, then I would think it credible. It would also pay off her 'journey' nicely. This seems almost so obvious that it's apparent that this serial was written by the producer (Graham Williams), with his script editor (Anthony Read), rather than than a proper, professional writer who WOULD have realized this. Just goes to show: producers shouldn't write, because they approach a plot with the same kind of thought process and mentality with which they approach a filming schedule: prioritizing ease and efficiency and getting it in the can. |
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#47 |
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The Leela exit would have made more sense if she'd fallen for one of the non-Timelord Gallifreyans from outside the citadel (I forget what they were called: shaboygans?). After all, such a person would be a perfect fit for her: somewhat 'savage' and wild, from an outdoors, survivalist culture but also intelligent, scientific and rational, the traits she was learning from and so admired in the Doctor.
She would fit perfectly into that culture. If they had done that and, you know, given them scenes together interacting, then I would think it credible. It would also pay off her 'journey' nicely. This seems almost so obvious that it's apparent that this serial was written by the producer (Graham Williams), with his script editor (Anthony Read), rather than than a proper, professional writer who WOULD have realized this. Just goes to show: producers shouldn't write, because they approach a plot with the same kind of thought process and mentality with which they approach a filming schedule: prioritizing ease and efficiency and getting it in the can.
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#48 |
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I agree but don't see the need for her to have fallen in love at all, she could have decided she wanted to live in Outer Gallifrey as that was her natural habitat. That would have been a more believable departure for her.
![]() But yes, simply deciding she wanted to live that lifestyle with the Shaboygans(?) would have been perfectly adequate without a man having to be at the centre of it. |
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#49 |
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The Leela exit would have made more sense if she'd fallen for one of the non-Timelord Gallifreyans from outside the citadel (I forget what they were called: shaboygans?). After all, such a person would be a perfect fit for her: somewhat 'savage' and wild, from an outdoors, survivalist culture but also intelligent, scientific and rational, the traits she was learning from and so admired in the Doctor.
She would fit perfectly into that culture. If they had done that and, you know, given them scenes together interacting, then I would think it credible. It would also pay off her 'journey' nicely. This seems almost so obvious that it's apparent that this serial was written by the producer (Graham Williams), with his script editor (Anthony Read), rather than than a proper, professional writer who WOULD have realized this. Just goes to show: producers shouldn't write, because they approach a plot with the same kind of thought process and mentality with which they approach a filming schedule: prioritizing ease and efficiency and getting it in the can. Big Finish's Gallifrey spin-off did play off it well though, with Leela being sort of half-integrated into Time Lord society despite being the polar opppsite of them. |
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#50 |
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Anyone agree? It gets a lot of stick but I personally really enjoyed it, I loved pretty much every episode bar Love and Monsters and Fear Her - but even that wasn't as bad as most people say. Single episodes like New Earth, Tooth and Claw and The Idiot's Lantern are underrated and the finale is my favourite ever...
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