But as I've said elsewhere, he's not the only Brit to have achieved a first in his/her sport. Not saying that he wouldn't be a very deserving winner, just that you can make a strong case for a fair few others.

Britains greatest decorated track & field athlete - no previous spoty winner representing track & field athletics and there has been 17 winners from athletics AND the MO BOT Is the greatest decorated of them all , If mo does not win then it's a great shame , nothing more , the stats show his legacy will be in the history books for years and years .

Still not sure how many Paralympians will make the shortlist but I'm pretty sure Kadeena Cox will be on it now.

I think it was the recent 1,500m in the Paralympics where the top four all went quicker then the time which won gold in the Olympics, so it does show that para athletes are getting to a very high standard, and deserve rightly to be considered just as good as Olympic athletes.

Dame Sarah has completed in able bodied competitions, and done very well there, as has for example the German long jumper, so it is not as if the standard is extraordinary low, quite the opposite in fact.

You can only judge someone by their own field, and so hence why Lewis Hamilton for example is so heralded in F1 circles, and Andy Murray in tennis ones.
Laura Trott and Jason Kenny in Olympic circles, and Sarah Storey and Georgia Hermitage in Para circles.

They are all brilliant, and have done exceedingly well in their own sports, and are all top level athletes.

I just don't see the need to try and bring down the achievements of anyone, be it in F1, tennis, or the Paralympics.

I'm a bit of a sucker for middle distance running tbh but it's difficult with so many candidates during a successful Olympic year, as well as a few from the Paralympics especially. Andy Murray would be a worthy winner too.

Good fact Batude, about the Paralympics 1500m. Had no idea about that. Did know that the winning time in the Olympics was something ridiculous like 3:50 though.

The 1500m is all about tactics, it's not unusual for it to be won on a relatively slow time. It's still rather unlikely paralympians could beat elite able bodied 1500m runners in a flat out race.

Not remotely true, you've just raised an anomaly to try and confirm their equal ability across the board.

Had they been running in that same race I'm in little doubt that we'd have seen a different tactical race that would have left the Paralympic athletes well behind. If their chances of an Olympic gold were realistic they would undoubtedly have entered that event.

Even on times alone I point to the women's 400 metres where the record is 47.6 seconds and nobody has in any category got within four seconds of it with the closest competitor doing so in a wheel chair. I could point to countless other distances and categories if need be.


And by the same token I don't see the need to falsely elevate their achievements either by silly yardsticks. You are wanting to judge people in their own field on one hand and then bring those same people into consideration for mainstream sports award, which is contradiction in the extreme.

I have also judged them in their own field and if you can point me to where I have brought down their achievements, please do.

I'm in agreement and I don't see why it can't be debated, as I've sought to do above.

Speaking about the 1500m event, have you seen how hard it is for someone to try and enter any able-bodied event?
It is not as simple as a person, or persons just asking to be included, they have to go jump through a lot of hoops in order to do so (not literally of course), so you saying "if they wanted Olympic gold then they would just have entered that race" is simply not right or correct.

As for your second point, it is not falsely elevating anyone's achievements to say a gild medal is just that a gold medal, no matter if it is won inches Olympics or the Paralympics.

Both are extremely high achievements, and both should be recognised as such.
Same goes for winning Wimbledon, or an F1 title, both are superb achievements.

This award is so hard to judge a winner, as if it were just a case of say for example Andy Murray winning Wimbledon, and no one else really achieving all that much,then of course it would be a bit if a foregone conclusion, but as it is, to win this award you are going to have to try and somehow compare very high achievements by so many people, I just don't see why any high achieving Paralympics athlete should not be in with the same consideration as any other sports person, as that is what they are, a sports person, and the main award, is for a sports person.

Thanks for the patronising lecture.

On the first point I'm addressing your hypothesis that a 1500m paralympic final where the first four were quicker than the able bodied means "para athletes are getting to a very high standard, and deserve rightly to be considered just as good as Olympic athletes."

They are not. There are 100s of disabled events where the best times are several seconds outside the world records, the 1500m Olympic final was an extraordinarily slow time, and frankly using that to make your claim is nothing short of ludicrous.

You are criticising me for trying to put down Paralympian achievements and have still not provided an example.

You are making the worst and most illogical argument possible for them to have equal standing when you are claiming them to be capable of equal times. If you are claiming that to be the case then there shouldn't be a Paralympics at all and they should compete on equal terms in the Olympics so we can then see how many medals they might get.

I don't see how you can claim them to be special on one hand in their field and then ask for them to be included in a Sports Personality of the Year list.

Anyone doing so, and I'm saying it now, is just doing it to fulfil a criteria and to be seen to be politically correct.

If society is happy to separate an Olympics from a Paralympics there should really be no reason for anyone to object to an additional distinguishing of a Sports Personality award in mainstream sport from a similar award being given strictly for people excelling in disabled sports in a different ceremony with various awards presented which everyone can celebrate readily within their fields.

Surely this is preferable to the current scenario most people are pushing of two people being nominated largely for the sake of being nominated, for something to be seen to be getting done, and in many ways having their disability marginalised far more unfairly than would be the case if a seperate award ceremony took place.

I understand about the 1500m and tactics. The fact that the winning time this year was the slowest in an Olympic final for almost 80 years makes it unusual.

Of course a Paralympian wouldn't win the Olympics if they were in the same race. I merely commented that it was an interesting fact.

Bolt is a guarantee for the foreign one

Got to say 'overseas' in this day and age!

It was not a patronising lecture, if you took it that way, then that was your doing not mine.

The Paralympics are an event just like the Olympics, for extraordinarily talented athletes, so why should they be merged together, as both are doing a superb job of highlighting top level sports performance.

They should be on this list, just as say an F1 champion should be included or say a horse racing jockey who has had a very successful season, as we are talking about sports people from various sports coming together for this award, and this show.
From there it is up to a panel to whittle down the nominations to just 12 or whatever number the shortlist ends up as.
Then the comparisons begin in earnest for the public, as it is a public vote, that will decide the final order.

Having a separate show as you suggest is just daft, and not needed, it should be about inclusion, not exclusion, why on earth would anyone wish to bar an athlete because they are missing a hand, or a leg, or are blind? That to me, is just not a serious suggestion surely??
Top level sport is just that, no matter the physical nature of the person involved.

No one is pushing anyone just for the sake of things, to look good, or to be politically correct from what I have read here anyway, if anyone is pushing for anyone to be involved or put on the shortlist, it is because of their achievements in their chosen field, be it football, F1, tennis, whatever.

Yeah that would make sense, personally I would give the lifetime achievement award to Kobe Bryant, as he has had a phenomenonal career, but I might be in a very small minority there, as sadly it does seem that basketball, even the NBA is a bit of a niche sport in this country.

Thats exactly why it wont happen. Basketball just isnt that big in the UK and Bryant will not even be thought of for the Lifetime Achievement.

Such a shame really, as he has had such a great career, a definite Hall of Fame one.

The whole discussion has come about because of your claim that, and again I quote, "para athletes are getting to a very high standard, and deserve rightly to be considered just as good as Olympic athletes."

Its your own logic that is implying there is cause for the events to be merged. Its not me saying they should be.


If you can tell me exactly where I've said that Paralympian athletes should be excluded from the main Sports Personality of the Year awards, please do so. And please try and answer my question if you intend to respond. You still haven't answered my previous specific question on where precisely I have brought down the achievements of Paralympian athletes and have posted several times since to me and other posters in total ignorance of it.


I'm afraid you are pushing things in this way. That's why you've been highlighted on multiple occasions in this thread saying "don't forget the Paralympians!"

I can't see many instances where people have posted names and you've felt the need to also say "don't forget Lewis Hamilton" or "don't forget Danny Willett" etc.

The core point is we have a poster saying that both Olympics and Paralympics are essentially equal or comparable achievements, and is branding me ridiculous for believing that Paralympians and other disabled sports people should have their own specific awards ceremony, yet he is also happy at the same time for the Paralympics to exist. If his argument is about inclusion, then fine, let's at least be consistent and allow able bodied athletes into the Paralympics too.

Putting words into my mouth implying that I am somehow trying to exclude the disabled is completely misunderstanding the point, and frankly, disgraceful on your part.

Great minds

Just to clarify, my qualms about opening a debate were specifically in relation to the classification system, which, in addition to having been discussed at length every four years, has tended to attract quite a lot of fairly ignorant comments about the impact of various disabilities. But I did say that it is a controversial area so it probably remains worthy of discussion - I'm just not feeling inclined to dive into it myself.

Am thinking it's likely there will be 2 or 3. Kadeena & Sarah Storey are both highly likely. With maybe 1 other like Libby Clegg or Hannah Cockcroft.

I have never suggested that the Paralympics and Olympics should be merged, all I have said is that we have seen some outstanding athletes produce some unbelievable feats at the Paralympics, just as we have done at the Olympics.
Saying that for this award they should be considered as equals, and should be on the same level, is not saying that o e event should be cancelled, and we should just have a bigger version of the Olympics, I honestly don't quite know how you have made that huge leap.
That is simply not what I was saying at all.


As for saying where you have downplayed the Para athletes, well you did suggest for some reason that they should be excluded from this award, and should have their own separate award, that to me is not being very inclusive, it is being very exclusive and not in a good way.
This award (well the main one is the one we are discussing here) is about recognising top level sporting achievement, and that is exactly what F1, a major in golf or tennis, the Olympics, and Paralympics are, and the people who do well in them, and other sporting areas, deserve to be placed together on this list.
There shouldn't be one for this, and one for that as you suggested earlier.

Top level sporting achievement should be recognised and treasured no matter if the person has two arms, and two legs, a car, a horse, or is blind, if they do well, then why not celebrate that fact?

Having one, two, three, four or more Paralympians on the shortlist would not be tokenism either, it would be because of their sporting merit, just as it would if Andy Murray, or Lewis Hamilton makes the final shortlist.

I would agree with you about tokenism, if there was someone who make the shortlist and for example they had say on got two bronze medals, and someone like Murray missed out altogether.
That however I doubt will be the case this time around, so no cries of tokenism will be merited.

Not forgetting Georgia Hermitage either with her two golds!

Maybe we should add Jonnie Peacock to the list, on the basis that I quite fancy him...

I know I said I wouldn't be taking any irrelevant factors into account. All kneel before my magnificent hypocrisy!

Get in-line behind Josh!