H&S is now tighter, but if you read any evidence at all you will see that it was more than a bit of an H&S cockup.

Question 7 - Supporters' behaviour: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Answer - No

Not necessarily. Perception, experiences, and the opinions of others can also be used to form opinions.

In this thread some good points have been made about public transport. If an extremely overcrowded train crashed or stopped very suddenly at high speed, those who were stood up would not have a seat in front of them to stop them going flying. Medical proffessionals would find it harder to move through the train due to the amount of people between the seats and in the areas by the doors.

If people surged forward onto a full train platform pushing people in front of them further forward so they ended up in the path of a moving train, the people who surged forward would be partially to blame for the death. The railway station would also be to blame for not limiting access to the platform when it was clear there were too many people. The train service could also be blamed for not providing enough trains.

If a person who was drunk before getting onto a plane gets mad and breaks a window while the plane is flying, not only is it the fault of the drunk person that the plane crashes, but it is also the fault of the people who let him on the plane.

Blame needn't be limited to one person or one set of people.

Facts help in forming a credible opinion. Seems like some posters see them as irrelevant when forming their opinion. Up to them but they should not be surprised when their opinion is questioned and totally baseless by other more discerning people.

I'm glad the families can now feel they've gotten some kind truth out of the system. As with the Bloody Sunday victims its a case of better late than never.

So your opinion is based on wildly different scenarios to the one that took place?

Do you retract your 'ticketless fans' assertion or are you still going with that one?

You're talking absolute irrelevant rubbish.

Read this again:

Question 7 - Supporters' behaviour: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Answer - No

Best news in such a sad sad way to get it

I think there should have been a question 15:-

If in a completely different scenario to what happened here some people pushed forward and people fell in front of a train or a plane window was broken would they be to blame?

I appear to have strayed onto a thread that you appear to have adopted as your personal fiefdom

None of which have any resemblance to events that police are there to manage, comparing public transport to football events is ridiculous

sorry you feel like that but honestly carry on..............Its quite amusing

I posted an experiment you could do that would prove my argument to be correct.

If the number of people in the area was not greater than the number that could have been accommodated there wouldn't have been a crush.


Another thing that supports this argument is that when stadiums are sold out they don't usually keep selling tickets.

bizarre and flawed imo to believe turning up drunk and without a ticket that you cannot be considered a contributing or factor or even partly blamed when something goes wrong

Yes Elyan, Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen at many grounds - in the 70s I was involved in a 'nearly' at Chelsea, courtesy of the police on horses herding people into an enclosed queuing area surrounded by walls.
What couldn't be seen from the back of the mass (round a corner) was that only two turnstiles were working (manned by two old blokes), and no gates open. People at the front were starting to pass out. It was impossible to get the message back to stop them doing this. Other fans weren't being nasty in the resulting scrabble, they were just panicking about themselves, friends and family.

One officer eventually rode his horse into the crush - which made it even worse for a while - but at least from that height he could see what was happening at the front and started herding people out of the walled in area.
I'm only little and was no longer on my feet, and somehow a strong man held onto me, made space and barged/ shoved me through the turnstile to 'safety'. The other side were around two dozen people who had got through in a tangle like me, vomiting or with minor injuries from crush and trampling etc. I had bruised legs and ribs, a massive headache but somehow watched the game... and also somehow forgot about it. You do that when you are young.

When Hillsborough happened I think a lot of us understood exactly what had occurred - but were still shocked when it did.

I'm glad the relatives of the 96 finally proved their point. People moaning about "how long they've been going on about it" should take a look at the lengthy legal process and lies they've had to battle.

Hi Easter,

Yours is such a good post, not a word of it I disagree with.

It should be remembered, ( I'm sure it is ), along with the fans, there were some brave, ambulance and police officers on that pitch doing their best.

No one set out to kill 96 people that fateful day and injure 760 odd others no one.

It's a tragedy that could have been avoided or at least there could have been more survivors and less injured.

What happened, well as DP says, it couldn't happen now, you had a Commander completely out of his depth,--not a clue, if not forgivable, it can be reasoned.

But the lies, the blackening in its aftermath, no excuse.

I can only hope prosecutions---successful ones will follow--but I'm not so sure.

And maybe those that do should also stop buying the Sun.

No planes or trains were at the ground that day so your question is ridiculous. Inquiry are set up to examine evidence and come to a decision based on that alone, not for playing guessing games.

wns_195 has really upped their game here. Under threat from heiker, they've now brought experiments into the thread.

Jenkins Leeroy provides the windmilling contrarian interlude

Are you aware that it wasn't a unanimous verdict then? Care to elaborate on why?

And i have already posted the absolute fact that there were less people in the Leppings Lane End than tickets sold. So it would be strange for there to be lots of ticketless fans in there wouldn't it? The only evidence of people not having tickets appears to be one turnstile operator who says people didn't show him their tickets, which really isn't any proof of anything.

So there is hardly any evidence there was ticketless fans, but lots to suggest there were very few if any.

If you had any understanding at all of this tragedy you would realise why there was a crush. Using your previous crazy train analogy, whose fault do you think it would be if there were 1000 people trying to get on a train designed for 1000 people but the Police forced them all on to the same carriage?

lol

That would require the jury's discussions to be made public which won't happen.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. Read the whole thread.

Really? You must be on a wind up.

My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?