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Old 26-04-2016, 17:06
walterwhite
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
Not necessarily. The area was larger, the number of fans was not the same and they weren't all constricted by huge security fences either.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:07
lockes no 1 fan
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
they were not 'penned' in outside were they,.........and forgive me but I have no sympathy for Duckenfield whatsoever, it was him that made the very first statement that fans had 'forced the gate' a complete and utter lie
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:08
heiker
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Yes Elyan, Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen at many grounds - in the 70s I was involved in a 'nearly' at Chelsea, courtesy of the police on horses herding people into an enclosed queuing area surrounded by walls.
What couldn't be seen from the back of the mass (round a corner) was that only two turnstiles were working (manned by two old blokes), and no gates open. People at the front were starting to pass out. It was impossible to get the message back to stop them doing this. Other fans weren't being nasty in the resulting scrabble, they were just panicking about themselves, friends and family.

One officer eventually rode his horse into the crush - which made it even worse for a while - but at least from that height he could see what was happening at the front and started herding people out of the walled in area.
I'm only little and was no longer on my feet, and somehow a strong man held onto me, made space and barged/ shoved me through the turnstile to 'safety'. The other side were around two dozen people who had got through in a tangle like me, vomiting or with minor injuries from crush and trampling etc. I had bruised legs and ribs, a massive headache but somehow watched the game... and also somehow forgot about it. You do that when you are young.

When Hillsborough happened I think a lot of us understood exactly what had occurred - but were still shocked when it did.

I'm glad the relatives of the 96 finally proved their point. People moaning about "how long they've been going on about it" should take a look at the lengthy legal process and lies they've had to battle.
I'm over 6 foot and I can recall games before Hillsborough where, for most of the game, your feet were rarely in contact with the terrace. You were continuously being swept in the direction the crowd swayed
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:08
walterwhite
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they were not 'penned' in outside were they,.........and forgive me but I have no sympathy for Duckenfield whatsoever, it was him that made the very first statement that fans had 'forced the gate' a complete and utter lie
Someone appearing to have sympathy for Duckenfield is the final notice that this thread is full of lunatics. Perhaps if he'd studied the design of the ground, or the reports that were sent to him and he didn't bother to read, or perhaps done anything at all then this may never have happened.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:09
Jenkins Leeroy
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That would require the jury's discussions to be made public which won't happen.
i guess that means you'd have no issue if you got sent down for something even though 20% of the jury thought you were innocent.
never been a fan of these majority verdicts
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:10
RandomSally
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
You're Duckenfield?!
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:12
heiker
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
You might be interested in the link I posted earlier to a YT video.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:12
RandomSally
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I was once nearly pushed off a railway platform in front of an incoming train due to the pressure of commuters, waiting 8 deep, behind me eager to grab a seat once the train was stationary. Who would have been to blame if I had fallen....the railway company alone or the commuters pushing forward furthest from the platform edge?
So you are, despite a jury having spent two years listening to harrowing evidence, blaming the fans?
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:12
walterwhite
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Just incase you Duckenfield sympathisers missed this:-

Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:13
walterwhite
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i guess that means you'd have no issue if you got sent down for something even though 20% of the jury thought you were innocent.
never been a fan of these majority verdicts
Who has been sent down?
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:13
WeeJintyMcGinty
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With regards to the fans being to blame it's a difficult one for me. If a 1000 people pack into a train platform and only 500 are allowed on the train. 500 jump on and 100 extra push in who is to blame? You could argue the company, the driver and those that pushed on. The fact they were allowed to do so is obviously fault of the train driver and train company, however the 100 should have recognised they were crushing people and causing difficulty.

But hey that's just an opinion to a small element of the case of which I will no doubt be shot down for.
You'll be shot down because your opinion is wrong. The Leppings Lane wasn't populated beyond it's ticketed capacity on that day - this isn't a hunch or a guess, it's a fact. CCTV footage was painstakingly studied by the Health And Safety Executive and the figures counted of those who passed through the turnstiles and also those who passed through the gates when they were opened.

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...s-how-we-know/
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:15
walterwhite
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You'll be shot down because your opinion is wrong. The Leppings Lane wasn't populated beyond it's ticketed capacity on that day - this isn't a hunch or a guess, it's a fact. CCTV footage was painstakingly studied by the Health And Safety Executive and the figures counted of those who passed through the turnstiles and also those who passed through the gates when they were opened.

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...s-how-we-know/
Careful, it seems wild opinion based on nothing is more popular on here than facts.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:18
Jenkins Leeroy
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Who has been sent down?
nobody which wasnt the point. when up to 20% of the jury disagrees with the overall decision its not exactly a watertight verdict. even after 2 years of considering the evidence 2 people still couldnt be convinced to go along with the majority
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:18
BanglaRoad
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
There was a crush outside which is why the police opened gate C. Which the police later said was broken down by fans. Incredible that even after twenty seven years there is still so much ignorance shown about what happened.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:19
walterwhite
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nobody which wasnt the point. when up to 20% of the jury disagrees with the overall decision its not exactly a watertight verdict. even after 2 years of considering the evidence 2 people still couldnt be convinced to go along with the majority
Fair enough. Tell me more about the drunk and ticketless fans.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:19
RecordPlayer
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My son's just said that surely if they hadn't let them in there'd have been a crush OUTSIDE. So Duckenfield was damned if he did and damned if he didn't! I feel sorry for the guy. Don't you think this has been on his conscience for all these years. What if I didn't order the gates to be opened?
If it was on his conscience he should have admitted his lie sooner, and saved the families a lot of heartache.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:22
heiker
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So you are, despite a jury having spent two years listening to harrowing evidence, blaming the fans?
I blame the Police, I blame the Club and I express concern that the Jury have possibly overlooked the fact that supporters eager to get onto the terrace have unknowingly caused a crush.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:26
Jenkins Leeroy
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Fair enough. Tell me more about the drunk and ticketless fans.
ok, they are idiots with not a care for themselves, eachother or for their club
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:34
valkay
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There was a crush outside which is why the police opened gate C. Which the police later said was broken down by fans. Incredible that even after twenty seven years there is still so much ignorance shown about what happened.
Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:35
Hamlet77
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If it was on his conscience he should have admitted his lie sooner, and saved the families a lot of heartache.
And here we have the issue summed up after all the thousands of words posted on this thread all ready.

Duckenfield got away with it for nearly 30 years, and he, with his other senior officers did everything for 25 years to push the blame on to anyone but the authorities.mthe wall of silence or more truthfully wall of lies, blamed the fans to deflect and quash the truth, the actions and decisions of South Yorkshire police was responsible for the death of 96 football fans. They did everything and anything to strengthen the lies that the fans were to blame.

So for Duckenfield to apologise is sickening, with him suffering no consequences for his actions for 25 years. 25 years that 96 people who died because of his ineptitude never had. And worsened by his pathetic lies to cover his own backside. He should be vilified for ever.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:38
RandomSally
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I blame the Police, I blame the Club and I express concern that the Jury have possibly overlooked the fact that supporters eager to get onto the terrace have unknowingly caused a crush.
So blaming the fans. The fans that the jury said, after having seen all the evidence, were not to blame. The question didn't ask if the dead fans had any blame attached, but all the fans. The fans that the police herded down the tunnel towards the pen. The fans that didn't realise what horror was going to unfold. You can't blame people doing what they are directed to do by those who should be there to keep them safe.
And that is what you are doing.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:40
lockes no 1 fan
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Originally Posted by valkay;82231235[B
]Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. [/b]When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?


what so unusual about that.......or would that fit into the 'drunken fans' theory..............so not only now do we have drunken fans and ticketless fans we also have late arriving fans.............funny that isn't this what the sun reported
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:44
MargMck
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I'm over 6 foot and I can recall games before Hillsborough where, for most of the game, your feet were rarely in contact with the terrace. You were continuously being swept in the direction the crowd swayed
Yes there was a culture where we took this for granted on the terraces, and that we would be treated like utter crap getting into the ground - not just hooligans, but anyone not in the posh bit. The only 'safety measure' I ever took was to try to stand the right side of the metal bar barriers on the terraces so that when the crowd surged I wouldn't go flying and be pinned on one.
It's strange how you simply accept something so dodgy as the norm when everyone else is doing it.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:46
aggs
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Personally, I'm chuffed to little mint balls about the verdict and if it does open the door to some degree of compensation then I shan't grudge them a single penny because I wouldn't have wanted their lives for the last almost 3 decades for all the tea in China.
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Old 26-04-2016, 17:49
valkay
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..........funny that isn't this what the sun reported

No, it's eye witness account.
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