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Hillsborouģh
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WeeJintyMcGinty
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by valkay:
“Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?”

The overcrowding outside the ground was already at crisis point 45 mins before the kick off. There was no rush forward outside the ground. 30 of the deaths were people who'd walked through Gate C after the police opened it about 10 mins before kick-off. In what way are they to blame for their own deaths ?
lockes no 1 fan
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by valkay:
“No, it's eye witness account.”



an eyewitness account of what could be a description of any other day at any other ground across the country..............so again what is so unusual about it...........
gdjman68wasdigi
26-04-2016
Am in Liverpool.now. ST George's Hall is packed.
andy1231
26-04-2016
Can you imagine the outcry if the jury had returned a verdicy of accidental death or death by misadventure. I suspect that the Liverpool families would have demanded another inquest, but because they got the result they wanted they are singing outside the court !. I think to put most of the blame on one man is unjust, there were a number of factors which lead to this tragedy but it has to be said that the Police did themselves no favours by trying to cover up the truth. What I would like to know is if all the fans had got to the ground in plenty of time ie 30 mins before kick off, would this disaster still have happened, I'm not passing the blame onto any of the fans but has this question been addressed ?
BelfastGuy125
26-04-2016
All these desperate....people....in here who are scrabbling around to deflect and evade and lay tricks...tell me why the police had to doctor so many of their own officers statements if they were above reproach and did not do wrong? Tell me why there were so many cowardly lies, and media briefing by scummer cops??

If they were innocent they would not have did that, and this is the real story, a dirty corrupt police force full of fat pigs at the top.

The less said about Ingham the better. May he see his beloved thatcher very soon.
lockes no 1 fan
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by andy1231:
“Can you imagine the outcry if the jury had returned a verdicy of accidental death or death by misadventure. I suspect that the Liverpool families would have demanded another inquest, but because they got the result they wanted they are singing outside the court !. I think to put most of the blame on one man is unjust, there were a number of factors which lead to this tragedy but it has to be said that the Police did themselves no favours by trying to cover up the truth. What I would like to know is if all the fans had got to the ground in plenty of time ie 30 mins before kick off, would this disaster still have happened, I'm not passing the blame onto any of the fans but has this question been addressed ?”



they did, and yet it still happened.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNS26Oj9B4o
BelfastGuy125
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by andy1231:
“Can you imagine the outcry if the jury had returned a verdicy of accidental death or death by misadventure. I suspect that the Liverpool families would have demanded another inquest, but because they got the result they wanted they are singing outside the court !. I think to put most of the blame on one man is unjust, there were a number of factors which lead to this tragedy but it has to be said that the Police did themselves no favours by trying to cover up the truth. What I would like to know is if all the fans had got to the ground in plenty of time ie 30 mins before kick off, would this disaster still have happened, I'm not passing the blame onto any of the fans but has this question been addressed ?”

Yes you are. I have seen you in these Hillsborough threads many times. IN the last inquiry you spent page after page deflecting and casting aspersions on Liverpool fans.

Why do you care about hypothetical "what if the jury said something else"...THEY DIDN'T. DO you know why they didn't?? Because it was factually not true! We dont need to imagine what would have happened because it didnt happen that way.
MargMck
26-04-2016
Hard to believe that after:
* exposure of the police lies, massive statement doctoring and actual project to 'dirty' the fans, both dead and live, right up to telling Thatcher what filth they were
* admittance and apology from the inept Duckenfield (who was probably under orders from corrupt authorities above him)
* exposure of police indecision on the day, woeful safety procedure and provision, lack of emergency planning, fences that couldn't be unlocked to rescue trapped fans...
and so on...

there are still those who will blame those who died, those who tried to rescue their fellow supporters AND whinge about the families who battled to the end to get the truth told.
No wonder it took the campaigners so long.
An Thropologist
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by andy1231:
“Can you imagine the outcry if the jury had returned a verdicy of accidental death or death by misadventure. I suspect that the Liverpool families would have demanded another inquest, but because they got the result they wanted they are singing outside the court !. I think to put most of the blame on one man is unjust, there were a number of factors which lead to this tragedy but it has to be said that the Police did themselves no favours by trying to cover up the truth. What I would like to know is if all the fans had got to the ground in plenty of time ie 30 mins before kick off, would this disaster still have happened, I'm not passing the blame onto any of the fans but has this question been addressed ?”

Yes I think it would. Apparently 10,000 plus people were trying to enter through just 7 turnstiles. According to the stats 2000 people had entered by 2pm. By 2.45pm there were 5,500 in with nearly the same number with tickets wating outside to get in. The progress through the turnstiles between 2.00pm and 2,45pm was described as slow but steady.
heiker
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by RandomSally:
“So blaming the fans. The fans that the jury said, after having seen all the evidence, were not to blame. The question didn't ask if the dead fans had any blame attached, but all the fans. The fans that the police herded down the tunnel towards the pen. The fans that didn't realise what horror was going to unfold. You can't blame people doing what they are directed to do by those who should be there to keep them safe.
And that is what you are doing.”

Link

EDIT

Quote from The Guardian:

"2.59pm: Fans pour in, causing severe crushing in pens 3 and 4"

Notice no mention of "herding"
viva.espana
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by Heavenly:
“David Conn from The Guardian has been following and reporting from the Inquest for the past 2 years and here is his definitive account.

I thought it couldn't shock me anymore, but it did. The Police failings are staggering.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...lasted-decades”

Thanks, that's an excellent albeit harrowing, horrifying and heartbreaking read.

I hope today's outcome will give real comfort and closure to all those who've fought so hard for the truth. A massive well done to them.
benayoun
26-04-2016
An admission first, I am a Liverpool supporter and live in south Yorkshire. On thAt day, my husband and I drove to Liverpool to take something to my daughter who was at Uni there. We came back in time for the semi final, my husband was a forest supporter. We were delayed because of the road works on the M62 - ironic because this is what caused the supporters to be delayed and thus rushing to the ground.

The findings of the 2 year inquest, that the supporters were not to blame and that there were catastrophic failures by the emergency services is in. To disagree seems to me to be both unsupported by the evidence and contrary to what people who have given up 2 years of their life decided.

To those who think differently, I would ask you to read, as I have done, every word of that inquest. Not a happy read, but an informative one.
andy1231
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“Yes I think it would. Apparently 10,000 plus people were trying to enter through just 7 turnstiles. According to the stats 2000 people had entered by 2pm. By 2.45pm there were 5,500 in with nearly the same number with tickets wating outside to get in. The progress through the turnstiles between 2.00pm and 2,45pm was described as slow but steady.”

Thanks for that, nice to have a reasonable reply to a genuine question unlike some posters on here.
abarthman
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by valkay:
“Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?”

I wonder why they bothered with the inquest when they could have just asked your friends instead?

And all those Liverpool supporters really should have known that they would cause the death of their fellow supporters by going to the pub before the game and then heading to the ground just before kick-off, because that never happens at any football game anywhere, ever!
LakieLady
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“No you are not wrong. Nobody could have foreseen that on that day those events would have collided to cause tragedy. But these events usually are a perfect storm of a number of unlikely things coming together and causing tragedy.”

A lot of the things weren't unlikely though. The police superintendent who'd been in charge of matches at Hillsborough until shortly before the disaster had had to have the gate opened to ease crushes outside the ground on previous occasions. However, he had closed the tunnel that led to the 2 areas where people died before giving the order to open the gate. He'd had the foresight to see what the implications of not doing that could be. Had he still been in charge, the disaster may well not have happened.

The officer in charge on the day (Duckenfield) had never even been to the ground and hadn't bothered to familiarise himself with the layout.

After the Bradford fire, a lot of people expressed the opinion that fenced terraces were dangerous in an emergency, but TPTB still thought the risk of a pitch invasion outweighed the risk to human life.
LakieLady
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by Osusana:
“I would just like to think that if it happened to me, I would not be pursuing prosecutions of people who did not deliberately mean any harm to my loved one.”

Even if they'd lied and tried to cover up their reckless incompetence? I bloody well would.
tiacat
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“In fairness... This poster already has.

People are allowed to disagree with a finding of a jury. By saying a finding is fact suggests that every jury is correct.

I don't really have an opinion either way with this case, however don't like seeing a poster condemned for simply giving an opinion.”

Me too actually. I dont know why people have to call others 'trolls' (vastly over used word and usually, like in this case, in the wrong context) simply because they have a different view.

Im not an expert on 'unlawful killing' criteria, but I would have thought that there would be some premeditated attempts to harm and so I can understand why that part of the jury's decision is confusing. Obviously what we have all known for years has been officially confirmed today, that there were cover ups and lies by the police.
viva.espana
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“Yes I think it would. Apparently 10,000 plus people were trying to enter through just 7 turnstiles. According to the stats 2000 people had entered by 2pm. By 2.45pm there were 5,500 in with nearly the same number with tickets wating outside to get in. The progress through the turnstiles between 2.00pm and 2,45pm was described as slow but steady.”

Hi An, I read this earlier today, it's a very simple but horribly vivid moment-by-moment account of one 17yr old boy's experience on the day. His description of the moment when he realised that his breathing had gone into panic mode made my heart beat faster and my blood run cold.

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/gary.shtm
mal2pool
26-04-2016
18 million pound enquiry`! that could have been paid as compensation to families
RandomSally
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by tiacat:
“Me too actually. I dont know why people have to call others 'trolls' (vastly over used word and usually, like in this case, in the wrong context) simply because they have a different view.

Im not an expert on 'unlawful killing' criteria, but I would have thought that there would be some premeditated attempts to harm and so I can understand why that part of the jury's decision is confusing. Obviously what we have all known for years has been officially confirmed today, that there were cover ups and lies by the police.”

Premeditated attempts to harm would be murder.
As far as I am aware unlawful killing is a term for saying people were killed because other people failed in their duty. And that doesn't mean people meant to hurt others. More akin to manslaughter.
tiacat
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by Fizzbin:
“Got MacKenzie wrong, but Bernard Ingham is still unrepentant - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...belled-7837120

Ingham's worse really, as being Thatcher's lap dog he would have been involved with the policy of putting up those blasted fences in the first place.”

If he had any decency he would apologise and offer to meet the man that wrote that letter. (mind you I thought he had died years ago)
RandomSally
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by heiker:
“Link

EDIT

Quote from The Guardian:

"2.59pm: Fans pour in, causing severe crushing in pens 3 and 4"

Notice no mention of "herding"”

The fans were pouring into those pens because that is where they were being directed to.
MargMck
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by andy1231:
“Can you imagine the outcry if the jury had returned a verdicy of accidental death or death by misadventure. I suspect that the Liverpool families would have demanded another inquest, but because they got the result they wanted they are singing outside the court !. I think to put most of the blame on one man is unjust, there were a number of factors which lead to this tragedy but it has to be said that the Police did themselves no favours by trying to cover up the truth. What I would like to know is if all the fans had got to the ground in plenty of time ie 30 mins before kick off, would this disaster still have happened, I'm not passing the blame onto any of the fans but has this question been addressed ?”

Re your first part about imaginary outcry- in view of finally the exposure of all the lies over the years, an outcry would have been the right response to any other verdict. Hillsborough was a travesty of failure by the authorities, followed by a determined cover up of the truth.

Now on to the timings of the arrival at the ground - I think you are still caught up in the myths put out. From the Guardian's extensive reporting - Supt Marshall at the inquest:
]Repeatedly played footage of the mass congestion that developed, Marshall admitted that it was a problem starting at 2.15pm, with thousands more people still arriving, and by 2.35pm, police had “completely lost control”.
heiker
26-04-2016
Originally Posted by tiacat:
“Me too actually. I dont know why people have to call others 'trolls' (vastly over used word and usually, like in this case, in the wrong context) simply because they have a different view.

Im not an expert on 'unlawful killing' criteria, but I would have thought that there would be some premeditated attempts to harm and so I can understand why that part of the jury's decision is confusing. Obviously what we have all known for years has been officially confirmed today, that there were cover ups and lies by the police.”

The Hillsborough jury is made up of 12 ordinary members of the public and like you, me and everybody else in this country they are not infallible. None of them are experts in Policing or Crowd Control and therefore their judgement is based on life experience and the evidence presented to them and the pressure of knowing that the relatives of the victims were awaiting their decision. I agree that it is not unacceptable for members to post comments on minor issues over which they disagree with the findings of the jury..
benayoun
26-04-2016
will the lies never stop? Despite the truth, some people perpetuate the lies. If you are resonsibie fior them please stop and think about the families of the people who died. This is not a joke, it's about 96 who lost
their lives as a result of a catastrophic day. Please stop.
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