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Hillsborouģh |
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#301 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,179
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Quote:
I am disagreeing with the jury, something I am entitled to do.
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#302 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Stirling/Windsor/Overseas
Posts: 14,344
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Quote:
Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?
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#303 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Liverpool. Champions of Europe
Posts: 15,520
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Quote:
Did any Forest fans give evidence? my friends were there and saw with their own eyes that the pubs and streets around the ground were packed with Liverpool fans. When the game started they all rushed foreward, what chance did the Police stand if they didn't open the gates.? The ones who died were innocent and nobody denies this, it was the crush behind which killed them. Were all the Liverpool fans innocent?
Are you so ingrained in your prejudice against Liverpool fans that you would still accept second hand testimony than that of the longest enquiry in British legal history. You decided a long time ago that Liverpool fans were responsible and you still insist in promoting the lies that the police and authorities promoted to save their own skins. I am sickened that this attitude still exist and that someone would dare to argue their blinkered distasteful hatred of Liverpool fans after everything that has happened and after the verdicts today. |
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#304 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
See 7:00 minutes in. They weren't "made to enter", someone made the decision to relieve the pressure building outside the ground. Events have proved the decision was wrong as the instant surge through the gates and down the tunnel was the main reason for the deaths. If I had been in that surge, ticket holding or not, I would feel some guilt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzKcbOQLq4 |
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#305 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: I wear a Stetson now...
Posts: 92,647
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Not going to bother to argue with the usual suspects probably trying, as per usual, to sling mud at the victims in this tragedy (as people that survived their horrific experience at Hillsborough are victims in all this as well, least people forget).
All I will say is this: I was 12 years old when this completely avoidable disaster happened due to the incompetence of those whose responsibility it was to safeguard fans from harm. I turn 40 in a few days. The wait for justice has been too long and the suffering of the survivors and loved ones of those that died been too great, but at least it has finally arrived. |
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#306 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
and many fans probably do feel guilty even though THEY WERE NOT AT FAULT. That was their point of entry. Sorry correct me if I am wrong but it appears that you think the fans were to blame
The second part of course covers a completely different concept, that of whether people then lied about the above, which of course they did. |
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#307 |
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 698
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Hi An, I read this earlier today, it's a very simple but horribly vivid moment-by-moment account of one 17yr old boy's experience on the day. His description of the moment when he realised that his breathing had gone into panic mode made my heart beat faster and my blood run cold.
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/gary.shtm Of course for some reason, people still insist in buying into the media, police and government lies and bullshit about what happened. 27 years later, and an inquest that clears the fans, yet there are still people trying to blame the fans. It's sickening. |
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#308 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,229
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Police Officers Federation claiming the Nuremburg defence, 'our members were only following orders'.
Now who was it started the rumour about fans urinating on the dead? Were they following orders? |
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#309 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Stirling/Windsor/Overseas
Posts: 14,344
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Quote:
How dare you, you insist on perpetuating the myth, the lies and slander promoted by the South Yorkshire police for 27 years. What more do you and people like yourselves require to accept that the fans were not to blame for the disaster.
Are you so ingrained in your prejudice against Liverpool fans that you would still accept second hand testimony than that of the longest enquiry in British legal history. You decided a long time ago that Liverpool fans were responsible and you still insist in promoting the lies that the police and authorities promoted to save their own skins. I am sickened that this attitude still exist and that someone would dare to argue their blinkered distasteful hatred of Liverpool fans after everything that has happened and after the verdicts today. |
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#310 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,773
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Quote:
Me too actually. I dont know why people have to call others 'trolls' (vastly over used word and usually, like in this case, in the wrong context) simply because they have a different view.
Im not an expert on 'unlawful killing' criteria, but I would have thought that there would be some premeditated attempts to harm and so I can understand why that part of the jury's decision is confusing. Obviously what we have all known for years has been officially confirmed today, that there were cover ups and lies by the police. I suspect the reason for the split verdict is that last criteria. |
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#311 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,179
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It wasn't a trial, it was an inquest. There is a difference. Nobody is under oath when they give evidence and no sentences are handed out as a result of any verdict. The Coroner is not a judge. These are just a couple of differences between an inquest and a trial.
Agree with all the rest of your post though.
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#312 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,012
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I couldn't make it all the way through that, I know what you mean about your blood running cold.
Of course for some reason, people still insist in buying into the media, police and government lies and bullshit about what happened. 27 years later, and an inquest that clears the fans, yet there are still people trying to blame the fans. It's sickening. But the reason I posted it was because it's a harrowing but necessary reminder of what those who experienced but survived that day went through and why today must be so emotional for them too, alongside the bereaved families. |
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#313 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern East Anglia
Posts: 75,219
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Justice at long, long last for the 96 and their families.
We all know that tragic accidents happen, either through incompetence, negligence, carelessness or all three. But what makes the Hillsborough tragedy stand out are the cover ups and lies which follow. Bereaved familes were badly let down - yes, Duckenfield should face prosecution for his lies. This has taken 27 years folks - over a quarter of a century. Really has to go down as one of the biggest public disgraces ever. |
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#314 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,546
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It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured. Juries are human after all. Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence. Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today. |
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#315 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,684
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Quote:
It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured. Juries are human after all. Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence. Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today.
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#316 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,229
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Quote:
Premeditated attempts to harm would be murder.
As far as I am aware unlawful killing is a term for saying people were killed because other people failed in their duty. And that doesn't mean people meant to hurt others. More akin to manslaughter. |
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#317 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,361
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I doubt any of us do. it is far too complex to sum up in a forum such as this.
I've said before about similar issues at the 1981 semi final, when I was there, and luckily the gates to the pitch at that end were opened to prevent a crush. Why were semi finals allowed there again, without massive change? The planning was nothing like that done today, which was a symptom of the time. The Police commander was out of his depth, and he's carrying the can, but who put him there? Many factors were involved. |
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#318 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nucleus
Posts: 1,768
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Quote:
It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured. Juries are human after all. Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence. Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today. |
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#319 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,361
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Quote:
Manslaughter is where you mean harm but not death. Surely in this case its death by negligence (dont even know if that is a term)
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#320 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,773
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Quote:
Manslaughter is where you mean harm but not death. Surely in this case its death by negligence (dont even know if that is a term)
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#321 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,097
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Quote:
Hard to believe that after:
* exposure of the police lies, massive statement doctoring and actual project to 'dirty' the fans, both dead and live, right up to telling Thatcher what filth they were * admittance and apology from the inept Duckenfield (who was probably under orders from corrupt authorities above him) * exposure of police indecision on the day, woeful safety procedure and provision, lack of emergency planning, fences that couldn't be unlocked to rescue trapped fans... and so on... there are still those who will blame those who died, those who tried to rescue their fellow supporters AND whinge about the families who battled to the end to get the truth told. No wonder it took the campaigners so long. It is astounding how bloody minded and downright stubborn some people are. That they still think they know better than people who have heard TWO YEARS worth of painstakingly detailed evidence, that are still merrily banding around the same statements they have clung to for years. Not just 'ticketless fans' but 'THOUSANDS of ticketless fans'. Based on what? I saw one girl on Twitter state '3000' fans . When challenged on this she just said 'she heard it'. But because it's what she wanted to believe that's her narrative and she's sticking to it. As are others. By any means necessary. They didn't like it in 2012 when the fans were publicly exonerated. Oh that Independent Panel was far from 'Independent' they cried, bias, bias, scouser this scouser that. In short they failed to accept it. So then we have an inquest an inquest which took two years, probably the most thorough one in legal history. Everything was considered, the questions that had to be answered. Including the one the same detractors have wanted an answer of 'yes' for. "Wait for the verdict" they said and then it came, the answer was 'No' and we STILL have people banging the same drum, they cannot and will not accept it. 2 Years of evidence but no mate of course you know best. So then the disregarding starts, "Oh it's only nine people's opinions" (formed on 2 years of evidence) obviously my opinion (based on prejudice usually) carries more weight. "7 out of 9 - so it wasn't unanimous! That means 2 still agree with my opinion" Unfortunately what those who are clinging to this notion don't acknowledge is on the part they're all interested in (it's the only dissenting voice heard in this thread and on the internet - BUT THOSE LIVERPOOL FANS HAVE TO BE BLAMED!') WAS UNANIMOUS. They UNANIMOUSLY agreed the following: Quote:
The jury of six women and three men answered 14 questions relating to the events in Sheffield of 15 April 1989, including one concerning the behaviour of supporters. But no lets just ignore that and instead continue to blame the fans, they MUST be to blame somehow even though those that heard the 4000 pages of evidence, heard 1000 witness accounts and concluded there wasn't even a suggestion that fans MAY have been a contributing factor:Barristers for police officers at the new inquests had repeatedly emphasised allegations of drunkenness and misbehaviour, while the families’ lawyers denounced them as “perpetuating the cover-up”. On Tuesday, the jury rejected those police claims, ruling unanimously that the fans did not contribute to the dangerous situation at Hillsborough that day There isn't even a question that they MAY be to blame the jury concluded based on the evidence they heard and yet here and elsewhere on the internet there is almost a perverse need to see Liverpool fans shoulder some of the blame. Let me spell it out to you. THEY. WERE. NOT. TO. BLAME. They were not even a CONTRIBUTING factor. "Question 7: behaviour of the supporters Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Jury’s answer: No. If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Jury’s answer: No." I find it simply staggering that the cause of people's ire when it comes to Hillsborough still seems to be all about the fans. Where is the widespread condemnation for the disgusting cover-up orchestrated by the police. That families suffered for 27 years as a result of their lies and smears. For one of the greatest miscarriages of justice? The thing I find incredibly sad is that there are football fans who are still so twisted by their hatred of a football team that they cannot get their heads out of their backsides frankly. Twitter is full of it. Search the 'hashtag' today those who seek to pour bile on Hillsborough always use. Borne out of nothing but ridiculous football rivalry. People are deeply prejudiced about "Liverpool fans" (yes one umbrella term - EVERY fan) and it influences their views on this tragedy, you see it every April 15th, a competition as to who can post the vilest thing, a desperate desire to go on about another disaster that most of them couldn't even name the date when it happened. They don't behave that way for any other reason than 'because it's Liverpool'. The problem with people using their swivel-eyed hatred of Liverpool to influence their views about Hillsborough is this; It could have happened to any team. With the findings of the jury that much is clear. The fans were failed in a catastrophic manner. The police largely responsible for these failures tried to shift the blame onto those fans. THAT is what I find disgusting. |
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#322 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,229
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No premeditation. Unlawful killing in this instance refers to gross negligence manslaughter. There are four criteria to be met (I posted this earlier but I'll post it again now): a duty of care has to be owed, that duty has to have been breached by negligence on the part of the person or group owing the duty. The breach must lead to death(s) and finally the negligence which led to the breach must be so egregious as to merit some form of punishment.
I suspect the reason for the split verdict is that last criteria. |
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#323 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,635
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Quote:
It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured. Juries are human after all. Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence. Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today. |
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#324 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,773
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Quote:
It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured. Juries are human after all. Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence. Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today. |
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#325 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,179
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Quote:
Yes I think it would. Apparently 10,000 plus people were trying to enter through just 7 turnstiles. According to the stats 2000 people had entered by 2pm. By 2.45pm there were 5,500 in with nearly the same number with tickets wating outside to get in. The progress through the turnstiles between 2.00pm and 2,45pm was described as slow but steady.
I will never, ever understand why they didn't delay the kick-off. |
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