But aren't the jury likely to be rather better informed than you, given that they've just spent 2 years listening to the evidence, legal submissions and the summing up given by a very senior judge?

Your friends saw lots of Liverpool fans before the game. So what? Read the verdict and in particular Q7 which says the Liverpool fans were in no way responsible for the deaths.

How dare you, you insist on perpetuating the myth, the lies and slander promoted by the South Yorkshire police for 27 years. What more do you and people like yourselves require to accept that the fans were not to blame for the disaster.

Are you so ingrained in your prejudice against Liverpool fans that you would still accept second hand testimony than that of the longest enquiry in British legal history.

You decided a long time ago that Liverpool fans were responsible and you still insist in promoting the lies that the police and authorities promoted to save their own skins.

I am sickened that this attitude still exist and that someone would dare to argue their blinkered distasteful hatred of Liverpool fans after everything that has happened and after the verdicts today.

It would be natural to feel guilt, its survivor guilt, but along with many posters in this thread, you're probably confusing the concept of 'fault' with the concept of 'contributing factor', the two are not necessarily the same thing.

Not going to bother to argue with the usual suspects probably trying, as per usual, to sling mud at the victims in this tragedy (as people that survived their horrific experience at Hillsborough are victims in all this as well, least people forget).

All I will say is this: I was 12 years old when this completely avoidable disaster happened due to the incompetence of those whose responsibility it was to safeguard fans from harm. I turn 40 in a few days. The wait for justice has been too long and the suffering of the survivors and loved ones of those that died been too great, but at least it has finally arrived.

You are confusing the concept of fault and contributing factors. You should look at some reviews of plane crashes. Its dealt with in a completely different way to these sort of enquiries, where fault or blame is not the object of finding out what happened. Its to find out what went wrong and how to prevent that again. That would be the first part of this particular investigation.

The second part of course covers a completely different concept, that of whether people then lied about the above, which of course they did.

I couldn't make it all the way through that, I know what you mean about your blood running cold.

Of course for some reason, people still insist in buying into the media, police and government lies and bullshit about what happened.

27 years later, and an inquest that clears the fans, yet there are still people trying to blame the fans. It's sickening.

Knowing the papers, they just made it up.

Brilliant post. Well said.

No premeditation. Unlawful killing in this instance refers to gross negligence manslaughter. There are four criteria to be met (I posted this earlier but I'll post it again now): a duty of care has to be owed, that duty has to have been breached by negligence on the part of the person or group owing the duty. The breach must lead to death(s) and finally the negligence which led to the breach must be so egregious as to merit some form of punishment.

I suspect the reason for the split verdict is that last criteria.

Inquest witnesses swear the oath (or affirm) and so do inquest jurors. And while most coroners aren't judges, this one had sat as a senior judge for quite some years.

Agree with all the rest of your post though.

^ I almost had a panic attack reading it.

But the reason I posted it was because it's a harrowing but necessary reminder of what those who experienced but survived that day went through and why today must be so emotional for them too, alongside the bereaved families.

Justice at long, long last for the 96 and their families.

We all know that tragic accidents happen, either through incompetence, negligence, carelessness or all three. But what makes the Hillsborough tragedy stand out are the cover ups and lies which follow. Bereaved familes were badly let down - yes, Duckenfield should face prosecution for his lies.

This has taken 27 years folks - over a quarter of a century. Really has to go down as one of the biggest public disgraces ever.

It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.

It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured.

Juries are human after all.

Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence.

Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today.

I admire your honesty, however, standby for the hostile posts

Manslaughter is where you mean harm but not death. Surely in this case its death by negligence (dont even know if that is a term)

Being out of one's depth is one thing but even more sickening than the "failures" was the total dishonesty. The CCTV camera that was alleged to be faulty when it wasn't, the police officers (including one special constable featured on ITV tonight) who were pressurised into changing their statements, the false reports of drunken, ticketless fans causing havoc, stealing from the dead, all total lies. The police chief's apology today was completely inadequate as was the response from the police association official. The police chief spoke of failures as though it was indeed a case of being "out of one's depth" but it was something far more sinister than that. It is quite obvious that fabrication of evidence was common practice then as it is now.

You have absolutely no basis for stating how the jury reached their verdict.

There is such a thing as manslaughter by gross negligence apparently. I seem to recall companies being prosecuted for manslaughter after accidentally but recklessly causing the death of employees or members of the public.

See my post #310 - gross negligence manslaughter.

Agreed.
It is astounding how bloody minded and downright stubborn some people are. That they still think they know better than people who have heard TWO YEARS worth of painstakingly detailed evidence, that are still merrily banding around the same statements they have clung to for years. Not just 'ticketless fans' but 'THOUSANDS of ticketless fans'. Based on what? I saw one girl on Twitter state '3000' fans . When challenged on this she just said 'she heard it'. But because it's what she wanted to believe that's her narrative and she's sticking to it. As are others. By any means necessary.
They didn't like it in 2012 when the fans were publicly exonerated. Oh that Independent Panel was far from 'Independent' they cried, bias, bias, scouser this scouser that. In short they failed to accept it.
So then we have an inquest an inquest which took two years, probably the most thorough one in legal history. Everything was considered, the questions that had to be answered. Including the one the same detractors have wanted an answer of 'yes' for. "Wait for the verdict" they said and then it came, the answer was 'No' and we STILL have people banging the same drum, they cannot and will not accept it. 2 Years of evidence but no mate of course you know best.
So then the disregarding starts, "Oh it's only nine people's opinions" (formed on 2 years of evidence) obviously my opinion (based on prejudice usually) carries more weight.
"7 out of 9 - so it wasn't unanimous! That means 2 still agree with my opinion"
Unfortunately what those who are clinging to this notion don't acknowledge is on the part they're all interested in (it's the only dissenting voice heard in this thread and on the internet - BUT THOSE LIVERPOOL FANS HAVE TO BE BLAMED!') WAS UNANIMOUS. They UNANIMOUSLY agreed the following:


But no lets just ignore that and instead continue to blame the fans, they MUST be to blame somehow even though those that heard the 4000 pages of evidence, heard 1000 witness accounts and concluded there wasn't even a suggestion that fans MAY have been a contributing factor:


There isn't even a question that they MAY be to blame the jury concluded based on the evidence they heard and yet here and elsewhere on the internet there is almost a perverse need to see Liverpool fans shoulder some of the blame. Let me spell it out to you. THEY. WERE. NOT. TO. BLAME. They were not even a CONTRIBUTING factor.

"Question 7: behaviour of the supporters

Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury’s answer: No.

If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury’s answer: No."
I find it simply staggering that the cause of people's ire when it comes to Hillsborough still seems to be all about the fans. Where is the widespread condemnation for the disgusting cover-up orchestrated by the police. That families suffered for 27 years as a result of their lies and smears. For one of the greatest miscarriages of justice?

The thing I find incredibly sad is that there are football fans who are still so twisted by their hatred of a football team that they cannot get their heads out of their backsides frankly. Twitter is full of it. Search the 'hashtag' today those who seek to pour bile on Hillsborough always use. Borne out of nothing but ridiculous football rivalry. People are deeply prejudiced about "Liverpool fans" (yes one umbrella term - EVERY fan) and it influences their views on this tragedy, you see it every April 15th, a competition as to who can post the vilest thing, a desperate desire to go on about another disaster that most of them couldn't even name the date when it happened. They don't behave that way for any other reason than 'because it's Liverpool'.

The problem with people using their swivel-eyed hatred of Liverpool to influence their views about Hillsborough is this; It could have happened to any team. With the findings of the jury that much is clear. The fans were failed in a catastrophic manner. The police largely responsible for these failures tried to shift the blame onto those fans. THAT is what I find disgusting.

Ah that is very useful. Ok. I would agree with the first 3 criteria being met. Im not convinced of the last one, was Duckenfield 'willful' in his negligence or just plain incompetent. Im sure I saw some suggestion somewhere that he was simply in his post due to being a Mason.

If you even bothered to read or hear the facts of the case then they could really come to no other decision, the first inquest was a PROVEN whitewash, and both juries were not 'furnished' with the same evidence...........so please try again

Have you actually been paying attention to what's been going on? Because this post suggests you've spent the last 27 years under a rock.

So in 45 minutes, they'd only managed to admit 3.5k spectators and there were at least another 5k or so ticket holders trying to get in. It probably would have taken a good hour or so to get them through the turnstiles.

I will never, ever understand why they didn't delay the kick-off.