Actually, while being the verdict the families wanted (I'd say deserved), it was also the correct decision based on the mountain of facts put before the jury.

excellent post and I hope some feel shame when they read this

I think it comes back to something highlighted earlier in the thread (which the poster got castigated for),which is how fans were viewed in those days. They were seen as a nuisance, getting in the way, so the powers that be wouldnt want to postpone kick off to ensure safety or convenience at least for the fans who they probably viewed as rather inconvenient to them

As I understand it the negligence doesn't have to be willful but rather 'show such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime.' (taken from wiki)

I can understand why the jury struggled on that point because it's a very high threshold to meet but for me personally having read about Duckenfield's actions before and on the day and the way in which the police moved Duckenfield into that post I personally think the threshold has been reached.

What in your considered opinion is dishonest about the verdicts of the jury?

It is time that those who peddled those vile and malicious lies recognise the deep hurt they have inflicted on innocent people.

I feel a pang of sympathy for this man. He has openly stated his failures on the day and in the aftermath. The burden of that is enough punishment, imo.

Precisely.

But still not good enough for some.

So now as well as continuing to blame and slag off the fans, survivors and their families, let's cast aspersions on the jury as well.

Let's ignore all the evidence put before this jury and continue the smear campaign.

Beyond nasty.

It seems to me that the lies that were told at the beginning have had the desired effect with some people too stupid/stubborn to actually look at the truth and therefore they still believe the lies. Sometimes I just give up with other people's stupidity.

Do those still pushing rubbish like being accused of things they haven't done. I very much doubt they do.

You wouldn't like someone accusing you of something you hadn't done yourself, so don't do it to others.

Its some serious brainwashing by the establishment that I suspect has even been passed down through families.

Also, it must be hard for some to accept that they've been spreading lies and hurt for years.

I can't agree with that. It took him over a quarter of a century to own up, a quarter of a century in which he continually lied about his role in all of this. He gets no credit for doing something so late and which has caused so much misery to the families and friends of 96 people.

If it was just incompetence, being "out of his depth" or poor planning, then maybe I might. But it was his subsequent lies that renders even the smallest smidgeon of sympathy, out of the question in my book.

...and it wasn't as if he just lied over some petty matter that nobody would really care about. He lied over the deaths of 96 people, knowing full damn well, the effect those lies would have on the families and friends of the victims. I don't know how he can look at himself in the mirror or sleep at night, quite frankly.

A decent, courageous and honourable man would have admitted his shortcomings and resigned immediately. Ultimately he would have been forgiven. But Duckenfield never will be.

he didnt admit it for 27 years..........no sympathy from me........If he had held his hands up at the start instead of peddling lies about the fans I think he would have been forgiven.

Did he?

no he didn't

He finally owned up to his wrongdoing when he was on the stand during the current inquest, I think about 18 months ago.

Mazzy, I have no idea why people need to come out with assertions that the jury simply failed to get it right and just buckled to the families. This was the first time in all those years that a lot of real evidence was put before an inquiry or jury without a mountain of lies to muddy things.... just a few molehills this time.
The detractors are also clinging to the 7-2 verdict on criminal negligence, believing that shows some people share their obscene view that pissed Liverpool fans killed other Reds.
It doesn't - for a verdict to fall in favour of a criminal act, rather than just negligence, an exceptionally high level of proof is required. It's more than possible that the other two jurors attached no blame to the fans, thought extraordinary negligence had occurred, but that it simply didn't reach the burden of proof for a criminal act.

I think that is also a problem today in terms of when things go wrong. The people involved panic, because we have a tendency to look at things from the perspective of finding someone to blame it all on. So someone involved with something that goes wrong, probably goes into panic and straight denial. We dont seem to have learnt that we need to look at disasters in a different way and support those as best we can who were involved as much as we support the victims. I go back to the plane crash analogy because they decided a long time ago that their inquiries would not be based on blame and so everyone works together honestly to look at what went wrong.

Manslaughter doesn't mean you necessarily meant any harm. That's why if you cause death in an accident it can be manslaughter.

It's certain that the other two jurors attached no blame to the fans because they said so in the answer to that question. The finding that the fans did not contribute to the events was unanimous.

I agree with the second part of BIB though, I suspect they couldn't agree on whether the negligence was criminal.

Well said.

It's depressing. Sadly the 'drunken ticketless fans' being to blame will always be perpetuated by the permanently ignorant.

Despite all the tv cameras, press photographers, police cameras and cctv outside the ground not one single piece of evidence of any kind of drunken behaviour outside the ground has ever come to light, never mind proof of the police claims of 'tanked up mobs behaving like animals and savages'.

On the contrary there is loads of photographic evidence of fans behaving like heroes, doing the police and ambulancemens jobs by rescuing people from the pens, giving cpr, using makeshift stretchers to carry the wounded to safety.

The fans didn't cause deaths. They saved lives.

I know.

I'm not defending him, just being human and having no appetite for revenge. I feel, based on what I've read, that he's probably been living with the punishment he deserves.

Manslaughter doesn't mean you necessarily meant any harm. That's why if you cause death in an accident it can be manslaughter.[/quote]

Well I suppose I should have worded it better, was sort of talking (typing) in shorthand, behaviour that you could reasonably believe could cause harm.

But these people are employed not to panic but to be prepared for situations exactly like this. And they're certainly not employed to lie and cover up for their mistakes.

And aircraft investigations do place blame ultimately and you can bet that if they find someone is at fault then that person will end up on trial.