A good result. I really hope the families of the victims can find some sort of peace now.
Hillsborouģh
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Originally Posted by viva.espana:
“I know.
I'm not defending him, just being human and having no appetite for revenge. I feel, based on what I've read, that he's probably been living with the punishment he deserves.”
“I know.
I'm not defending him, just being human and having no appetite for revenge. I feel, based on what I've read, that he's probably been living with the punishment he deserves.”
I'm not thinking of revenge, I'm thinking of justice. He should have faced disciplinary action at least and probably should have lost his job. And he lied constantly and continually. He may have been living with what he's done but I'm sorry that's not enough when we consider the fact that 96 people needlessly lost their lives because of what he did. He's had a long life and a good career on the backs of those lies.
Originally Posted by Nicola37:
“Agreed.
It is astounding how bloody minded and downright stubborn some people are. That they still think they know better than people who have heard TWO YEARS worth of painstakingly detailed evidence, that are still merrily banding around the same statements they have clung to for years. Not just 'ticketless fans' but 'THOUSANDS of ticketless fans'. Based on what? I saw one girl on Twitter state '3000' fans . When challenged on this she just said 'she heard it'. But because it's what she wanted to believe that's her narrative and she's sticking to it. As are others. By any means necessary.
They didn't like it in 2012 when the fans were publicly exonerated. Oh that Independent Panel was far from 'Independent' they cried, bias, bias, scouser this scouser that. In short they failed to accept it.
So then we have an inquest an inquest which took two years, probably the most thorough one in legal history. Everything was considered, the questions that had to be answered. Including the one the same detractors have wanted an answer of 'yes' for. "Wait for the verdict" they said and then it came, the answer was 'No' and we STILL have people banging the same drum, they cannot and will not accept it. 2 Years of evidence but no mate of course you know best.
So then the disregarding starts, "Oh it's only nine people's opinions" (formed on 2 years of evidence) obviously my opinion (based on prejudice usually) carries more weight.
"7 out of 9 - so it wasn't unanimous! That means 2 still agree with my opinion"
Unfortunately what those who are clinging to this notion don't acknowledge is on the part they're all interested in (it's the only dissenting voice heard in this thread and on the internet - BUT THOSE LIVERPOOL FANS HAVE TO BE BLAMED!') WAS UNANIMOUS. They UNANIMOUSLY agreed the following:
But no lets just ignore that and instead continue to blame the fans, they MUST be to blame somehow even though those that heard the 4000 pages of evidence, heard 1000 witness accounts and concluded there wasn't even a suggestion that fans MAY have been a contributing factor:
There isn't even a question that they MAY be to blame the jury concluded based on the evidence they heard and yet here and elsewhere on the internet there is almost a perverse need to see Liverpool fans shoulder some of the blame. Let me spell it out to you. THEY. WERE. NOT. TO. BLAME. They were not even a CONTRIBUTING factor.
"Question 7: behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No.
If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No."
I find it simply staggering that the cause of people's ire when it comes to Hillsborough still seems to be all about the fans. Where is the widespread condemnation for the disgusting cover-up orchestrated by the police. That families suffered for 27 years as a result of their lies and smears. For one of the greatest miscarriages of justice?
The thing I find incredibly sad is that there are football fans who are still so twisted by their hatred of a football team that they cannot get their heads out of their backsides frankly. Twitter is full of it. Search the 'hashtag' today those who seek to pour bile on Hillsborough always use. Borne out of nothing but ridiculous football rivalry. People are deeply prejudiced about "Liverpool fans" (yes one umbrella term - EVERY fan) and it influences their views on this tragedy, you see it every April 15th, a competition as to who can post the vilest thing, a desperate desire to go on about another disaster that most of them couldn't even name the date when it happened. They don't behave that way for any other reason than 'because it's Liverpool'.
The problem with people using their swivel-eyed hatred of Liverpool to influence their views about Hillsborough is this; It could have happened to any team. With the findings of the jury that much is clear. The fans were failed in a catastrophic manner. The police largely responsible for these failures tried to shift the blame onto those fans. THAT is what I find disgusting.”
“Agreed.
It is astounding how bloody minded and downright stubborn some people are. That they still think they know better than people who have heard TWO YEARS worth of painstakingly detailed evidence, that are still merrily banding around the same statements they have clung to for years. Not just 'ticketless fans' but 'THOUSANDS of ticketless fans'. Based on what? I saw one girl on Twitter state '3000' fans . When challenged on this she just said 'she heard it'. But because it's what she wanted to believe that's her narrative and she's sticking to it. As are others. By any means necessary.
They didn't like it in 2012 when the fans were publicly exonerated. Oh that Independent Panel was far from 'Independent' they cried, bias, bias, scouser this scouser that. In short they failed to accept it.
So then we have an inquest an inquest which took two years, probably the most thorough one in legal history. Everything was considered, the questions that had to be answered. Including the one the same detractors have wanted an answer of 'yes' for. "Wait for the verdict" they said and then it came, the answer was 'No' and we STILL have people banging the same drum, they cannot and will not accept it. 2 Years of evidence but no mate of course you know best.
So then the disregarding starts, "Oh it's only nine people's opinions" (formed on 2 years of evidence) obviously my opinion (based on prejudice usually) carries more weight.
"7 out of 9 - so it wasn't unanimous! That means 2 still agree with my opinion"
Unfortunately what those who are clinging to this notion don't acknowledge is on the part they're all interested in (it's the only dissenting voice heard in this thread and on the internet - BUT THOSE LIVERPOOL FANS HAVE TO BE BLAMED!') WAS UNANIMOUS. They UNANIMOUSLY agreed the following:
But no lets just ignore that and instead continue to blame the fans, they MUST be to blame somehow even though those that heard the 4000 pages of evidence, heard 1000 witness accounts and concluded there wasn't even a suggestion that fans MAY have been a contributing factor:
There isn't even a question that they MAY be to blame the jury concluded based on the evidence they heard and yet here and elsewhere on the internet there is almost a perverse need to see Liverpool fans shoulder some of the blame. Let me spell it out to you. THEY. WERE. NOT. TO. BLAME. They were not even a CONTRIBUTING factor.
"Question 7: behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No.
If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No."
I find it simply staggering that the cause of people's ire when it comes to Hillsborough still seems to be all about the fans. Where is the widespread condemnation for the disgusting cover-up orchestrated by the police. That families suffered for 27 years as a result of their lies and smears. For one of the greatest miscarriages of justice?
The thing I find incredibly sad is that there are football fans who are still so twisted by their hatred of a football team that they cannot get their heads out of their backsides frankly. Twitter is full of it. Search the 'hashtag' today those who seek to pour bile on Hillsborough always use. Borne out of nothing but ridiculous football rivalry. People are deeply prejudiced about "Liverpool fans" (yes one umbrella term - EVERY fan) and it influences their views on this tragedy, you see it every April 15th, a competition as to who can post the vilest thing, a desperate desire to go on about another disaster that most of them couldn't even name the date when it happened. They don't behave that way for any other reason than 'because it's Liverpool'.
The problem with people using their swivel-eyed hatred of Liverpool to influence their views about Hillsborough is this; It could have happened to any team. With the findings of the jury that much is clear. The fans were failed in a catastrophic manner. The police largely responsible for these failures tried to shift the blame onto those fans. THAT is what I find disgusting.”
SUPERB
Originally Posted by viva.espana:
“I know.
I'm not defending him, just being human and having no appetite for revenge. I feel, based on what I've read, that he's probably been living with the punishment he deserves.”
“I know.
I'm not defending him, just being human and having no appetite for revenge. I feel, based on what I've read, that he's probably been living with the punishment he deserves.”
I have often wandered how he lived with himself for all those years, all those faces of the dead on covers of newspapers year after year. I suspect he thought the families would have just give up in the end and he could move on with unblemished character.
Originally Posted by marjangles:
“I'm not thinking of revenge, I'm thinking of justice. He should have faced disciplinary action at least and probably should have lost his job. And he lied constantly and continually. He may have been living with what he's done but I'm sorry that's not enough when we consider the fact that 96 people needlessly lost their lives because of what he did. He's had a long life and a good career on the backs of those lies.”
“I'm not thinking of revenge, I'm thinking of justice. He should have faced disciplinary action at least and probably should have lost his job. And he lied constantly and continually. He may have been living with what he's done but I'm sorry that's not enough when we consider the fact that 96 people needlessly lost their lives because of what he did. He's had a long life and a good career on the backs of those lies.”
Exactly. And where is he today... On his hollies in Portugal...says it all ...
Originally Posted by Sebastian1992:
“ 27 years later, and an inquest that clears the fans, yet there are still people trying to blame the fans. It's sickening.”
“ 27 years later, and an inquest that clears the fans, yet there are still people trying to blame the fans. It's sickening.”
Whatever the subject, there are always a few on here who love to blame the victim.
Originally Posted by marjangles:
“But these people are employed not to panic but to be prepared for situations exactly like this. And they're certainly not employed to lie and cover up for their mistakes.
And aircraft investigations do place blame ultimately and you can bet that if they find someone is at fault then that person will end up on trial.”
“But these people are employed not to panic but to be prepared for situations exactly like this. And they're certainly not employed to lie and cover up for their mistakes.
And aircraft investigations do place blame ultimately and you can bet that if they find someone is at fault then that person will end up on trial.”
If need be, if criminal behaviour is proved then yes, of course there might be trials but the point is that risk management theory in this area is based on the whole, how the system goes together and if it falls apart, how it fell apart. Its not meant to identify one thing or factor or person, its based on how all the factors go together
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_...s_(aeronautics)
Originally Posted by Amethyzt:
“Exactly. And where is he today... On his hollies in Portugal...says it all ...”
“Exactly. And where is he today... On his hollies in Portugal...says it all ...”
He retired in his mid 40's on a full index-linked pension, to avoid disciplinary proceedings from the Police Complaints Commission.
Originally Posted by viva.espana:
“I feel a pang of sympathy for this man. He has openly stated his failures on the day and in the aftermath. The burden of that is enough punishment, imo.”
“I feel a pang of sympathy for this man. He has openly stated his failures on the day and in the aftermath. The burden of that is enough punishment, imo.”
Not after 25 years of concerted blame shifting and rear end covering I don't. Finally telling the truth in manner of having teeth pulled only because the facade of lies was crumbling around him just makes him more of a coward, to me.
Originally Posted by WeeJintyMcGinty:
“He retired in his mid 40's on a full index-linked pension.”
“He retired in his mid 40's on a full index-linked pension.”
Interesting because a picture of him today shows someone who looks like they've lived about , say, 96 lives, not someone who retired at 40. Clearly it would have been easier for him, let alone the victims to admit what happened at the time rather than carry it for all that time. What an idiot.
Originally Posted by kitten1:
“It seems to me that the lies that were told at the beginning have had the desired effect with some people too stupid/stubborn to actually look at the truth and therefore they still believe the lies. Sometimes I just give up with other people's stupidity.”
“It seems to me that the lies that were told at the beginning have had the desired effect with some people too stupid/stubborn to actually look at the truth and therefore they still believe the lies. Sometimes I just give up with other people's stupidity.”
As Mark Twain said, 'a lie can travel half way round the world while the truth is putting its shoes on' and when the lie is being peddled over the top of the actual events by respected commentators repeating what they are told in good faith, then truth stands even less of a chance.
Originally Posted by viva.espana:
“I feel a pang of sympathy for this man. He has openly stated his failures on the day and in the aftermath. The burden of that is enough punishment, imo.”
“I feel a pang of sympathy for this man. He has openly stated his failures on the day and in the aftermath. The burden of that is enough punishment, imo.”
You're more forgiving than me then. He spent 20+ years lying his socks off, trying to pin the blame on the victims.
Originally Posted by tiacat:
“Interesting because a picture of him today shows someone who looks like they've lived about , say, 96 lives, not someone who retired at 40. Clearly it would have been easier for him, let alone the victims to admit what happened at the time rather than carry it for all that time. What an idiot.”
“Interesting because a picture of him today shows someone who looks like they've lived about , say, 96 lives, not someone who retired at 40. Clearly it would have been easier for him, let alone the victims to admit what happened at the time rather than carry it for all that time. What an idiot.”
If he'd admitted it at the time he would probably have lost that job and pension.
Originally Posted by marjangles:
“If he'd admitted it at the time he would probably have lost that job and pension.”
“If he'd admitted it at the time he would probably have lost that job and pension.”
Well, I suppose that depends on how much 'worth' you put on integrity and your own mental health. Im in a job where I could be answerable to an inquiry or serious case review. I know that there is no way I would cover up or lie, I just couldnt do it. Not only do I think its wrong but I know I couldnt live with it, it will kill me (literally)
Originally Posted by marjangles:
“I'm not thinking of revenge, I'm thinking of justice. He should have faced disciplinary action at least and probably should have lost his job. And he lied constantly and continually. He may have been living with what he's done but I'm sorry that's not enough when we consider the fact that 96 people needlessly lost their lives because of what he did. He's had a long life and a good career on the backs of those lies.”
“I'm not thinking of revenge, I'm thinking of justice. He should have faced disciplinary action at least and probably should have lost his job. And he lied constantly and continually. He may have been living with what he's done but I'm sorry that's not enough when we consider the fact that 96 people needlessly lost their lives because of what he did. He's had a long life and a good career on the backs of those lies.”
And a long retirement on a generous police pension. I wonder if that was a factor in his lies?
I am happy the of the outcome today, I don't really feel like I need to say more than whatever has been said alfready.
However, I do wonder if The Sun will now print a proper apology tomorrow. Their website only features the story in the number 2 slot at the moment, which seems disgraceful given the importance of the news today.
However, I do wonder if The Sun will now print a proper apology tomorrow. Their website only features the story in the number 2 slot at the moment, which seems disgraceful given the importance of the news today.
I think it takes a very cold and almost soulless person to lie and deceive as Duckenfield has done. His excuse for all this happening was he 'froze', that is not a legitimate excuse at all. And in fact, I don't think he did freeze, his first response to seeing what was going on in the central pens was probably 'What excuse can we come up with so that blame doesn't get laid on our door?'.
Football fans were pretty much seen as vermin then, my mother travelled away regularly in the 70's/early 80's and was regularly herded into pens where you were expected to 'find your own level'. In one match the crush got so bad a police officer had to pull her from the crowd and upon doing so both her shoes were gone, she had to wait until the end of the match for the crowd to leave so she could find them.
Duckenfield did not care about these fans and it's not just Duckenfield that felt this way is what I am trying to say. It was all too easy for him to send out this narrative of 'These drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans charged at the gate, broke it down and they all came running into the centre pen and killed those towards the front.' It was an easy narrative for people who weren't football fans to believe and one I have no doubt Duckenfield and co thought they could get away with.
If Duckenfield had any sort of heart, he wouldn't have spun that lie about the Liverpool fans. He would have held his hands up from the very beginning and admitted he got it wrong and he was terribly sorry, but he didn't. He has continued to lie until it became crystal clear his lies weren't going to cut it anymore, his apologies have come not because he is truly sorry for what happened but because he's been backed into a corner.
I was only 2 at the time of Hillsborough so don't remember it at all. My mother does, as she saw the images on tv whilst nursing me she burst into tears and told my grandmother she knew people were dead in that crowd, she could tell by the way it was moving and the looks on some of their faces. She wasn't there and it scarred her because she thought 'That could have been me'. We both cried upon hearing the verdict today because the families and indeed the city have fought for so long for this moment to happen.
Football fans were pretty much seen as vermin then, my mother travelled away regularly in the 70's/early 80's and was regularly herded into pens where you were expected to 'find your own level'. In one match the crush got so bad a police officer had to pull her from the crowd and upon doing so both her shoes were gone, she had to wait until the end of the match for the crowd to leave so she could find them.
Duckenfield did not care about these fans and it's not just Duckenfield that felt this way is what I am trying to say. It was all too easy for him to send out this narrative of 'These drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans charged at the gate, broke it down and they all came running into the centre pen and killed those towards the front.' It was an easy narrative for people who weren't football fans to believe and one I have no doubt Duckenfield and co thought they could get away with.
If Duckenfield had any sort of heart, he wouldn't have spun that lie about the Liverpool fans. He would have held his hands up from the very beginning and admitted he got it wrong and he was terribly sorry, but he didn't. He has continued to lie until it became crystal clear his lies weren't going to cut it anymore, his apologies have come not because he is truly sorry for what happened but because he's been backed into a corner.
I was only 2 at the time of Hillsborough so don't remember it at all. My mother does, as she saw the images on tv whilst nursing me she burst into tears and told my grandmother she knew people were dead in that crowd, she could tell by the way it was moving and the looks on some of their faces. She wasn't there and it scarred her because she thought 'That could have been me'. We both cried upon hearing the verdict today because the families and indeed the city have fought for so long for this moment to happen.
Can't actually believe some of the things I'm reading in this thread.
Why are completely exonerated supporters still getting blamed?
And as for sympathy for those responsible for making it happen, the mind boggles.
As I saw online earlier, this wasn't the Hillsborough disaster, it was the Hillsborough scandal.
Why are completely exonerated supporters still getting blamed?
And as for sympathy for those responsible for making it happen, the mind boggles.
As I saw online earlier, this wasn't the Hillsborough disaster, it was the Hillsborough scandal.
Originally Posted by Blofeld:
“I am happy the of the outcome today, I don't really feel like I need to say more than whatever has been said alfready.
However, I do wonder if The Sun will now print a proper apology tomorrow. Their website only features the story in the number 2 slot at the moment, which seems disgraceful given the importance of the news today.”
“I am happy the of the outcome today, I don't really feel like I need to say more than whatever has been said alfready.
However, I do wonder if The Sun will now print a proper apology tomorrow. Their website only features the story in the number 2 slot at the moment, which seems disgraceful given the importance of the news today.”
Talking of them, here's a copy of the letter they sent to people (including the bereaved) who complained about their coverage at the time...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg-HHFiWgAA3Evy.jpg
Originally Posted by jeffiner1892:
“Can't actually believe some of the things I'm reading in this thread.
Why are completely exonerated supporters still getting blamed?
And as for sympathy for those responsible for making it happen, the mind boggles.
As I saw online earlier, this wasn't the Hillsborough disaster, it was the Hillsborough scandal.”
“Can't actually believe some of the things I'm reading in this thread.
Why are completely exonerated supporters still getting blamed?
And as for sympathy for those responsible for making it happen, the mind boggles.
As I saw online earlier, this wasn't the Hillsborough disaster, it was the Hillsborough scandal.”
This with bells on.
People have fought for 27 years for the fans to be exonerated, they finally are and people won't let it lie.
It's such a shame that Anne Williams wasn't here to see this day.
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“So in 45 minutes, they'd only managed to admit 3.5k spectators and there were at least another 5k or so ticket holders trying to get in. It probably would have taken a good hour or so to get them through the turnstiles.
I will never, ever understand why they didn't delay the kick-off.”
“So in 45 minutes, they'd only managed to admit 3.5k spectators and there were at least another 5k or so ticket holders trying to get in. It probably would have taken a good hour or so to get them through the turnstiles.
I will never, ever understand why they didn't delay the kick-off.”
Yes absolutely. I did the sums and based on the admission rate from 2pm until 2.45 it would have taken around 90 minutes to admit all ticket holders through 7 turnstiles. Which is presuambly why they opened the gate.
Originally Posted by WeeJintyMcGinty:
“Talking of them, here's a copy of the letter they sent to people (including the bereaved) who complained about their coverage at the time...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg-HHFiWgAA3Evy.jpg”
“Talking of them, here's a copy of the letter they sent to people (including the bereaved) who complained about their coverage at the time...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg-HHFiWgAA3Evy.jpg”
That's horrific!
I never knew they sent that out, that's unforgivable. I am genuinely surprised the paper still exists, that boycott should have gone nationwide after they sent that to people. I have never bought a copy of it but that just absolutely re-enforces my stance against the rag.
I don't think anything other than a whole edition dedicated to the victims, as in one full page each, would suffice as an unreserved apology, but after seeing that letter I'm not sure they can actually do anything to win back the readers lost as a direct result of their coverage of this tragedy.
Originally Posted by Rosebuddy:
“It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured.
Juries are human after all.
Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence.
Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today.”
“It's obvious the jury have had one eye on their place in History, they have given the families the verdict they wanted rather than come to an honest decision based on the evidence.
It's not that surprising, nor is it to be censured.
Juries are human after all.
Juries will always continue to surprise us by coming to the opposite decision from aother jury, both juries having being furnished with the exact same evidence.
Just let's not kid ourselves that something momentous has happened today.”
So what you're saying is, that this is all one big pro-Liverpool conspiracy?
Crack on!
Originally Posted by Sebastian1992:
“This with bells on.
People have fought for 27 years for the fans to be exonerated, they finally are and people won't let it lie.
It's such a shame that Anne Williams wasn't here to see this day.”
“This with bells on.
People have fought for 27 years for the fans to be exonerated, they finally are and people won't let it lie.
It's such a shame that Anne Williams wasn't here to see this day.”
Is it about exoneration or compensation?
Originally Posted by Sport1:
“Well yes. They were entering a football ground and being directed into that area by police. They didn't push, it was a crush. Big difference, and no blame on the supporters.”
“Well yes. They were entering a football ground and being directed into that area by police. They didn't push, it was a crush. Big difference, and no blame on the supporters.”
Crikey, how is this so hard for people? Crushing, pushing, squeezing - all requires a force to be exerted by someone or something
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