Stop accusing me of trying to score points. It is frankly disgusting. This is a serious issue, and I'm getting sick of your attempts to shut down any discussion. If you can't accept serious discussion, nobody's forcing you to participate.

It was a 7-2 jury so what were the 2 unconvinced about?

Only that the level of negligence revealed in the evidence reached the criminal activity level- unlawful killing.
They all agreed the fans were not to blame.

Quite....and the officer Duckenfield replaced was also a Freemason.

That was my point. There's no way that he could have orchestrated a full blown conspiracy. He was responsible for what he did wrong on the day. These were the actions of someone who was incompetent and out of his depth on the day.

A much more serious issue, in my opinion, is any subsequent conspiracy. This would need to be planned, and impacts directly on our legal system and on our ability as a society to believe in "The System".

Edit. I also meant to say that I am concerned that the match commander is being made a scapegoat for what are bigger problems.

And Orgreave of course - where they were assisted by the BBC actually reversing the order of the footage making it appear that the police had charged in response to missiles being thrown by the miners, when the opposite was the case.

Yes, Orgreave is another example that fits the same pattern. I hope that kind of behaviour is a thing of the past but I sometimes wonder if they've just gotten better at hiding it.

Yesterday was the verdict of the coroners enquiry, the police/establishment cover-up is currently under a separate criminal investigation by Operation Resolve. The results of that will be out in due course

The one thing that stood out from the footage for me was John Motson saying several times that no announcement had been made at the ground informing the fans in the other stands that there was an emergency situation.

no hooligans, no cages, no crush

I do think there was a before, during and after.
Before: the culture of the time, treating most football fans as scum, Freemasonry, police corruption and SYP mindset, H&S ignored, Thatcherworld v The Great Unwashed.
During: all the policing and organisational failures revealed at the inquest (much of which stemmed from the 'Before' above), the thing they put effort into was immediately starting to build the cover-up.
After: Extension of the cover-up for many, many years - and you are right, this is where the conspiracy comes in and it is a very serious issue TODAY in its own right.

That was simply a mistake in editing. There were more than one charge with the horses, and the BBC used film out of sequence. The charges actually followed prolonged missile throwing each time, and warnings that the horses would go in if it didn't stop were given.

Right, now we're getting somewhere.

Now if you can just read up on the rest of the subject it will dawn on you that the jury have reached a reasonable and unequivocal conclusion.

You continuing to persist with your perverse agenda that something else was behind it is not 'continuing debate' but just irritating those who are discussing the matter at a higher level than conspriracy theory piffle.

Bib. It's like banging heads against a brick wall.

Thr only way any Liverpool fan contributed to the tragedy was by accident as they were being crushed and suffocated and were panicking.

Jesus bloody Christ.

No clue

I've not questioned the jury's conclusion.

What "conspiracy theory piffle". You're just inventing insults now.

A totally simplistic response, and an indication of a complete lack of understanding.

Well said - no matter what The Sun say or do for many they will always be The Scum

It speaks volumes that it's not on the front cover of The Times either though. Murdoch certainly is a bitter man.

Massive backlash on twitter last night when the front page first edition was released. They hurriedly rushed through a second edition where its on the top band of the front page and they have released an apology...saying it was just a mistake they left it off the first edition.....

Here is a run up to the events, as you can see Gate C was opened 3 times, you can see those pens were full and yet still no one intervened

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzKcbOQLq4

Well it looks like there is likely to be a full public inquiry into Orgreave now. How 'clean' do you really think the police case is going to look?

Same force, how much of a stretch is it to think they'd have used the same tactics?

In fact, IMO, they simply used the same methods at Hillsborough that had worked so brilliantly at Orgreave. Including a loathesome relationship with The Sun newspaper which it used as its propaganda organ.

Cover up by accusing the 'other side'. (In Orgreave they even arrested people on trumped up and bullshit charges). Use the skankiest newspaper in the country to peddle your lies. Take advantage of a 'sympathetic' government. Manufacture a story to get yourselves off the hook.

But it is all testament to the fact that people know when they are being lied to. They knew that about Hillsborough. They knew it about Bloody Sunday. They know it about Orgreave.

They know that the police involved in all those events were bent. And the ones who weren't bent were scared to speak out. Which is just as bad.

(Even getting the exceedingly bent West Midlands force to 'investigate' Hillsborough now looks like the most astonishing piece of chutzpah ever).

I remember reading that previous to the infamous Hillsborough article, The Sun sold very well in Liverpool and Merseyside.

I've always found that to be surprising to be honest. The Sun is a traditionally Conserative-supporting paper and in those days would have been very supportive of Mrs Thatcher's government. From what I know of the Liverpool area, there aren't that many (any?) seats which are held or likely to be held by a Conservative MP.

So does anyone know - how come The Sun used to sell well in the area, prior to the Hillsborough article they wrote?

The Sun though is still the UK's biggest read and selling newspaper