I'm getting sick of people still blaming the fans because so many of them supposedly turned up 'late'. Nowhere on a ticket does it say 'Please get to the ground before such and such a time or else you won't be admitted.' Nowhere on a ticket does it say 'Please do not drink any alcohol, not even a pint, before you come to the match.'

The majority of fans, even more so back then because the rules were a hell of a lot stricter, do not get drunk simply because if you are that drunk you won't get admitted to the ground. Why travel all that way to a game only to get drunk and then not be admitted? It makes no sense and there is absolutely no evidence of there being a huge proportion of drunken fans there that day that somehow led to the crush.

Even if you had for arguments sake 1000 Liverpool fans that were drunk that day, the reason the crush happened has nothing to do with the fact they were drunk but everything to do with the fact that the policing was diabolical outside the ground (as stated by many officers there that day who had never seen anything so chaotic and disorganised at a game before) and a man in charge who basically couldn't organise a pee up in a brewery to put it bluntly.

The sad thing was, it was all too easy to spin the lie about drunk, rioting fans because the public, or most of anyway, would easily believe that version of events. I think some people have preconceptions of football fans as these idiots who like to get drunk, go to a game and start fights/abusing people and it's just so at odds with everything I know and have experienced.

I've travelled around the country as a fan of a Welsh team and apart from our local derby with Cardiff I have never seen any trouble, I've been welcomed into clubhouses and sat with opposition supporters talking football, politics, whatever topic came up. I've made some of my best friends because of my club and it hurts me, even though I was only 2 at the time, to see the same stuff being dragged up about the supporters again and again.

I think of the Hicks girls, who were my age when I started travelling away, and I think of the absolutely terrified children who would have been screaming for their mam/dad and thinking 'I've only come here to watch a football match, why is this happening?' and it still, and always will, make me so upset because I know what it's like to have such a passion for a team, to go and watch something you love, the last thing you'd expect is to be killed in the process.

Sorry, I go off on very long rants on this topic but it's a highly emotive one for me.

Ah, people like me. You need to explain that one further.

As I have said, there is a lot of incorrect information that he was basing comments on, supplied to him by the police. I prefer the actual CCTV footage and photographs that have emerged more recently as an evidence base on what happened (or didn't) outside the ground.

Hear, hear. Well said.

The establishment in the form of lawyers paid for with public money were still telling the same old lines at the inquiry right to the end.

Dr Popper ordered the blood tests on the deceased. Were police officers at the time trained to take blood samples from bodies? I can't imagine that they would have been going around with syringes. Surely, only doctors and nurses would have taken blood samples from bodies.

Seriously ? There's so much I agree with in your posts but then little snippets like that slip through. The victims, their families, the survivors, Liverpool fans in general have all been vilified for years on the back of the SYP lies - the Taylor reports (there were two) and the various coroner reports, inquiries and private prosecutions did absolutely nothing to stop this. The tide only started to slowly turn in 2012, even now despite all the evidence some people just won't budge from having lapped up the lies - it's almost like their own prejudices and an inability to admit they were wrong/misled are more important to them than the actual truth

One of the things that has fascinated me down the years on this forum is how some people do feel like they can throw out lines about a 'tanked up mob' with no need to present any supporting evidence at all, meanwhile, having ridiculously high thresholds in terms of evidence they expect to be provided with from those posting the truthful account of what passed that day (and very often if not mostly ignoring it when it's provided).

http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-u...UGHIV2PAB_2804 Direct link

As Professor Scraton (independent panel) said 'the myth becomes embodied and institutionalised once thats there it is really hard to shift'

She had a pretty dreadful time of it because her narrative went against the one being created, especially in regards to Kevin Williams.

Exactly and that is my whole point really but what I am seeing on this thread from some people doesn't feel right to me as whilst I get that they want to agree and help the families of the victims and we can all agree that they have been through a load of crap over the years, that the pound of flesh that some on here want a) won't help the families in the end and b) doesn't solve anything really. There was someone on here that talked about the people responsible still being able to continue their life which I am sure was an unfortunate turn of phrase only. but can people not realise a) what they post can be misconstrued or b) people might not like their 'turn of phrase' or stance and have a problem with it. What I am seeing is not acceptance of differing opinions etc just my way is right you are a bad person and I am a good person.

I agree with you about the lies etc. A really bad decision was made we can all agree on that, but some of the demonification on here by some posters is out of proportion and, in some cases, based on today's standards. So when someone calls up any of that and even mentions something like that, then they get vilified for it and it is that people are having a different reaction to like me.

I really don't

Exactly. Hillsborough has resulted in victims on both sides. Imagine being a junior ranked officer like she was, knowing what you'd witnessed, then being told to "keep your mouth shut" by senior officers.

I really feel for her and others who found themselves faced with the same.

There are plenty of people on this thread who are happy to engage in debate/reason and answer differing opinions without vilification. So go ahead and voice your opinions but please, if people don't agree with your opinions, don't expect them to go unchallenged

I waited 2 yrs following the inquests daily. the same questions were put to many officers
when barristers challenged there statements. not one iota of evidence put forward, in fact officers made apologies.
2000 Ticket;ess fans, answer, yes am sorry I don't know why I said that. the damage it did when that hit the front pages of the newspapers.#Drunks carried down leppings Lane.
fans carrying 6 packs of lager. wine etc. hundreds of hours of videos and hundreds of thousands of photos. absolutely nothing.
The stunning point is all this video and photo evidence gathering was gathered by SYP to try and prove the fans were to blame but it actually proved they were blameless.

I really cant understand what Bethnal is trying to say, yeah people have opinions on, for example, what should happen next, should any one person be held accountable etc etc, and they can be discussed BUT people STILL blaming the fans is not an 'opinion; that is based on any credible evidence, why should that go unchallenged and why should people not be put straight?

No bereavement councellor would advise any family to do what the Hillsborough families have done. So in that sense people can quite reasonably suggest they might have done it differently and better. Moving on is part of grieving. If you delay that the pain is extended too. So whatever they have achieved has been at great cost to their own health and wellbeing. And of course for those relatives pursuing the civil case it still isn't over and won't be for a long time as the courts grind their way through the same evidence presented at the inquest. That class action will probably have to wait till after any criminal proceedings are completed too.

I don't think this is a landmark case though. No precedent has been set. The faulty findings of original inquest have been put right. I don't see how the outcome can benefit others in the same position because where there is injustice people always have to campaign to put it right. No one will be able to point to this verdict and say that as a result of this other injustices will be avoided. Families campaigning over the Deepcut inquest verdicts aren't helped by it, for example, except to show that persistence can win in the end.

I agree that there are people on this thread that are prepared to engage etc, but if a) you think that I am not prepared to discuss my opinions then you would be wrong. I am not even on one side or another, which kind of proves my point with you. All I have said is that there are people on this thread that can't accept the other side. I was mostly talking about the side that is probably akin to your point of view, however, I do think it goes both ways so hence my posts.

By the way, I don't think you fall into the category that you clearly think you do! but hey you're right and I am wrong in your opinion in the terms of how you want to talk on this thread, so me engaging with you on the actual subject I am annoyed about is slim to none. I seriously despair with the level of debate on this site and not just this forum or thread. I have other crap on this site to be getting on with so I'll let you hound everyone away that doesn't agree with your way of thinking and leave you deciding who should get 'justice first' in terms of who you are going to demand leaves, resign, is prosecuted or sent to prison.

Ah well I tried to get you to discuss the topic in hand. It's a shame that rather than discuss the Hillsborough Tragedy/Scandal the vast majority of the words you've posted on this thread are to vilify and criticise other members of the forum for daring to have different opinions from your own ,even though we don't really know what your opinions are as you haven't actually posted them. But hey ho, I wish you well. Have fun with your 'other crap'. Bye for now.

(I'm not aware that I've ever suggested who should get justice first, who should leave, who should resign, who should be prosecuted or who should be sent to prison.... but no matter.)

I think you must have missed a lot of the news over the last few days.

Agreed. Did not need inquests lasting 2 years and costing a small fortune.


I have seen the footage. It shows a crush outside the turnstiles. Why do you think that the Police were obliged to open the gate ?

In the case of Hillsborough the victims families have never been able to "move on" because of the well orchestrated campaign against their loved ones.

Years of smears, cover ups and bare faced lies had to be dismantled before the truth could come to light.

Would you, or anyone else allow their friends, sons, husbands memory tarnished by the police, media and politicians without fighting every day for justice?.

If you are that type of person I pity you.

Didn't it though?.

What would your solution be then?.

Nail on the head.

It's not even a case that moving on is part of grieving, the point is that a lot haven't been able to grieve in the first place because of the subsequent events.

As Margaret Aspinall said, now her son can rest in the arms of Godrather than in his mother's anger.