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Hillsborouģh |
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#1176 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 134
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In reply to grafenwalder, it's unlikely to happen now for two reasons, firstly because stadia are all seater, meaning space super person is more than bit was then. Secondly because the hateful pens have been abolished. Fans were, literally, penned in at Hillsborough and had no way of getting away from the crush
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#1177 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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Because football is about people, about a sense of belonging, therefore stadiums should not be turned into posh out of town ghettos. neither should towns, cities or residential areas be turned into sterile cattle pens where we exist in front of our tellys while not working or shopping.
Don't like football? I don't like churches, supermarkets and gymnasiums, but other people do, and diversity is healthy. The comparison with supermarkets is interesting as the best move ever made was building those out of town centres on large parks, often with other big stores. Everyone has a car today so there is no longer any need for town centre supermarkets. As a result many town centres are now completely pedestrianised making it easy and safe to walk around. We left the 1960's behind half a century ago. Quote:
In reply to grafenwalder, it's unlikely to happen now for two reasons, firstly because stadia are all seater, meaning space super person is more than bit was then. Secondly because the hateful pens have been abolished. Fans were, literally, penned in at Hillsborough and had no way of getting away from the crush
![]() Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted. |
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#1178 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,499
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Quote:
snip The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all. ![]() Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted. https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/ |
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#1179 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd. Are the FA at fault on the day, absolutely not, how can they be. they have no authority to tell people where they should and shouldn't go. the FA were criticized for treating the day as a nice little jolly. VIP treatment from start to finish. |
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#1180 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,438
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Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?
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#1181 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,499
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Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?
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#1182 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,635
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I also wondered how that came to light and also how they came across previously 'lost' video footage. Obviously that was a huge turning point (I would have thought).
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#1183 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 4,979
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A rather long but none the less interesting essay about the introduction of fences at football stadiums and the prevailing attitudes of the time.
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/ Quote:
Although many fans preferred to stand at matches, and even today a large number of them would still like to see terraces brought back (because they create a more exciting atmosphere), the reality was that the terraces were implemented and maintained so irresponsibly in the 1980’s that they were an environment that invited trouble. Most fans were well-behaved, and they tolerated the grubby, uncomfortable conditions, but those who actually thrived on the conditions and really loved the squalor of it all were almost certainly going to be the sorts of people who enjoyed the uglier side of life in general.
I've just been on the phone with a cousin of mine who is a life long footie fan and been to many different stadiums. He told me fencing has completely gone now, it's not allowed. He also said in his opinion it was completely the wrong stadium to hold that match at as it hadn't got the capacity then and hasn't even now.He said the match should have been held at somewhere like Manchester which had a much larger capacity in '89 and today still takes over 75,000. I still don't like those tiny little doors i see at the Hillsborough stadium. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that! |
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#1184 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,584
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[quote=td1983;82287125]Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?[i/QUOTE]
They were known many years ago in fact they were one of the arguments put forward for another inquest in the 90s, the Stuart Smith Scrutiny didn't think it made any difference to the outcome of the first inquest verdict. the vast ammount of changed statments wasn't know until the HIP files were released. Many officers signed their statement and had no idea parts were deleted till 2014. 25 yrs after. |
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#1185 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,435
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Thanks for that. Excellent article, and really conveys how it affected survivors.
The account of police officers sobbing in the temporary mortuary also made me wonder what on earth was going on within SYP that led to such a comprehensive cover-up. All those officers, the majority of whom must surely have been decent people, who either colluded or were coerced into going along with it must be feeling really ashamed I hope more about the prevailing culture in that force comes out. Have a read of the truly astonishing case of PC Tony Salt to see how a couple of members of West Midlands were behaving on the very night of the Hillsborough Disaster - on-duty drunkenness resulting in death, followed by cover-ups, media compliance, false confessions and fitting up 3 innocent patsies to take the blame for supposedly murdering a policeman, who it turned out had drunkenly bashed his head on a JCB... http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...2/pc-tony-salt http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-death-1715283 A couple of days later West Midlands were given the role of investigating SYP's role in the Hillsborough disaster. Not just to provide evidence for the Taylor Report and also the DPP for any potential criminal charges but also to provide evidence for the coroner re cause of death of the victims. A key part in this investigation was given to DS Stan Beechey, former head of the West Midland Crime Squad which had recently been disbanded for fabricating evidence, obtaining confessions under duress and the planting of forensic evidence. I'm not suggesting that the behaviour of a few policemen in SYP or West Midlands was representative of all of them, that would be ridiculous - there does appear to be enough evidence of problems with some members of both forces though. Given all the controversy and suspicions surrounding West Midlands Police, it's astonishing that they were given the job of investigating similar allegations against SYP. West Midland police then went on to be investigated by West Yorkshire police ! |
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#1186 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 231
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Quote:
The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
![]() Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted. |
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#1187 |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,071
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Has the Hillsborough ground itself been radically overhauled and restructured? Looking at it on Google earth the surroundings still look extremely archaic and run down surrounded by rows of tiny terraced houses cheek by jowl with the ground. Is it a poor club?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html The fences are gone and seats installed but the Leppings Lane End is a truly depressing place - I remember the first time I went there as an away fan, seeing that infamous tunnel in front of you.... |
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#1188 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 13,160
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I think it's inevitable that the IPCC investigations and Operation Resolve will uncover more about not just the SYP but West Midlands police too.
Have a read of the truly astonishing case of PC Tony Salt to see how a couple of members of West Midlands were behaving on the very night of the Hillsborough Disaster - on-duty drunkenness resulting in death, followed by cover-ups, media compliance, false confessions and fitting up 3 innocent patsies to take the blame for supposedly murdering a policeman, who it turned out had drunkenly bashed his head on a JCB... http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...2/pc-tony-salt http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-death-1715283 A couple of days later West Midlands were given the role of investigating SYP's role in the Hillsborough disaster. Not just to provide evidence for the Taylor Report and also the DPP for any potential criminal charges but also to provide evidence for the coroner re cause of death of the victims. A key part in this investigation was given to DS Stan Beechey, former head of the West Midland Crime Squad which had recently been disbanded for fabricating evidence, obtaining confessions under duress and the planting of forensic evidence. I'm not suggesting that the behaviour of a few policemen in SYP or West Midlands was representative of all of them, that would be ridiculous - there does appear to be enough evidence of problems with some members of both forces though. Given all the controversy and suspicions surrounding West Midlands Police, it's astonishing that they were given the job of investigating similar allegations against SYP. West Midland police then went on to be investigated by West Yorkshire police ! Add to that the fact the establishment of the time seemed to view any crowd with nervousness and young people in crowds for any reason (my own experience was mainly based around pop concerts but the attitudes were distrustful at best) were viewed with suspicion. There's no wonder really that a crowd based incident occurred. It could have happened anywhere - not just a football match. |
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#1189 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,499
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At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?
The article I posted above explains it all very well (I think) - it is lengthy but it kind of puts the attitudes of the time into perspective. It is long but if you are genuinely interested it's a really good read. |
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#1190 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 4,979
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At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/ Quote:
This article covers it well
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html The fences are gone and seats installed but the Leppings Lane End is a truly depressing place - I remember the first time I went there as an away fan, seeing that infamous tunnel in front of you.... That article is interesting and despite 'improvements' made to the tunnel, i still don't feel it should be there. Not when you have hundreds or thousands of people going through. I can understand why some people felt it should have been razed to the ground. Quote:
Yes it was - there was very little thought for the safety of the fans though. Of course football 'hooliganism' was a big issue at that time and this was seen as a way of 'dealing' with it.
The article I posted above explains it all very well (I think) - it is lengthy but it kind of puts the attitudes of the time into perspective. It is long but if you are genuinely interested it's a really good read. Since the outcome of the inquiry i'm now wondering if the FA as the governing body of football hold any responsibility for Hillsborough? |
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#1191 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,584
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At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?
Looking back it's a reflection of the mindset of the clubs attitude towards fans more than anything. |
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#1192 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: I wear a Stetson now...
Posts: 92,647
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That article is interesting and despite 'improvements' made to the tunnel, i still don't feel it should be there. Not when you have hundreds or thousands of people going through. I can understand why some people felt it should have been razed to the ground.
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#1193 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 9,179
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I'm taking a very broad open view here but my opinion is one major problem with our football grounds is most are sited in heavily built up populated areas. This may well have been fine when the grounds were first built as few people owned cars.
Why don't they build them well away from towns, cities or residential areas? The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time. I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station. To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good. ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house! Last edited by LakieLady : 03-05-2016 at 16:50. Reason: Admission of prejudice! |
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#1194 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,499
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When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time. I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station. To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good. ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house! Not right on top of it but VERY close - used to work nearby too - I remember in the seventies most of the shops in Thornton Heath High Street used to lock/board up on a Saturday afternoon. My aunt used to actually live in Holmesdale Road.
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#1195 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 4,979
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Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.
Quote:
When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time. I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station. To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good. ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house! That's the sort of location i believe should be standard for all clubs though looking closer at it there appears to be small blocks which appear to be residential flats at the bottom right of image. If those were built after the stadium then that's pretty stupid and defeats the purpose, but if already there then the stadium is in the wrong place. I would have moved it a couple of miles further N/E where there is nothing for miles yet still easily accessible as the A27 runs the length of that open land. |
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#1196 |
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 698
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It doesn't seem to me the clubs commit much by way of cost to improving facilities. Maybe it's time to reign in footballers stratospheric salaries and start improving grounds, but i suspect that will never happen!
Whether you like his salary or not,, for example, people are willing to pay to see C. Ronaldo play. They want his name on the back of his shirts, they want to see him on television. A lot of that money generated goes back into the club. It's market forces at work. |
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#1197 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,584
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Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.
SWFC would only have had to pay 25% of the cost of any improvements to Hillsborough. the FA would have paid the other 75% They asked for a quote to improve Leppings lane which would add more turnstiles. they got the quote back and then had another quote made with less turnstiles. that bill was far cheaper. they went with the cheaper quote with less turnstiles. |
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#1198 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 8,723
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Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd. Your point about the overcrowding at a GAA match is an interesting one because I still think the fencing in of Hill 16 is going to cause a potential Hillsborough repeat in the future. |
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#1199 |
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Join Date: Dec 2015
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Generally, I'd say that the ones that receive 'stratospheric' salaries tend to generate enough interest and income to justify their salaries.
Whether you like his salary or not,, for example, people are willing to pay to see C. Ronaldo play. They want his name on the back of his shirts, they want to see him on television. A lot of that money generated goes back into the club. It's market forces at work. This is the outside of Hillsborough West stand (Leppings Lane) shot by Google earth in September 2015. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qnz8mg.jpg Look at the drab uninviting facade. It looks almost unchanged since 1989. Look at the visitor entrance doors. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that - it even looks more welcoming too! |
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#1200 |
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 698
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So why have so many club grounds/stadia/facilities remained stuck in a 1950's time warp? If as you say "people are willing to pay to see Ronaldo", where is the money going because it certainly doesn't seem to be facilities being particularly high up on their list of priorities and that's the point i was making?
This is the outside of Hillsborough West stand (Leppings Lane) shot by Google earth in September 2015. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qnz8mg.jpg Look at the drab uninviting facade. It looks almost unchanged since 1989. Look at the visitor entrance doors. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that - it even looks more welcoming too! They're a world away from Sheffield Wednesday who play in the Championship, and don't have the revenue to sort anything out. How much do you think they pay their players? |
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Not right on top of it but VERY close - used to work nearby too - I remember in the seventies most of the shops in Thornton Heath High Street used to lock/board up on a Saturday afternoon. My aunt used to actually live in Holmesdale Road.