In reply to grafenwalder, it's unlikely to happen now for two reasons, firstly because stadia are all seater, meaning space super person is more than bit was then. Secondly because the hateful pens have been abolished. Fans were, literally, penned in at Hillsborough and had no way of getting away from the crush
Hillsborouģh
48 of 50
Originally Posted by KJ44:
“Because football is about people, about a sense of belonging, therefore stadiums should not be turned into posh out of town ghettos. neither should towns, cities or residential areas be turned into sterile cattle pens where we exist in front of our tellys while not working or shopping.
Don't like football? I don't like churches, supermarkets and gymnasiums, but other people do, and diversity is healthy.”
“Because football is about people, about a sense of belonging, therefore stadiums should not be turned into posh out of town ghettos. neither should towns, cities or residential areas be turned into sterile cattle pens where we exist in front of our tellys while not working or shopping.
Don't like football? I don't like churches, supermarkets and gymnasiums, but other people do, and diversity is healthy.”
Surely you can have a 'sense of belonging' without being herded like cattle down roads full of houses to be crammed through tiny little doors in brick walls? Or is that still part of your pleasure? If it really was 'about people' then i would expect clubs to extend more humane facilities to their customers but looking at the outside of Hillsborough today, that doesn't seem to be the case to me. It looks very poor so i assume the club must be too?
The comparison with supermarkets is interesting as the best move ever made was building those out of town centres on large parks, often with other big stores. Everyone has a car today so there is no longer any need for town centre supermarkets. As a result many town centres are now completely pedestrianised making it easy and safe to walk around. We left the 1960's behind half a century ago.
Originally Posted by benayoun:
“In reply to grafenwalder, it's unlikely to happen now for two reasons, firstly because stadia are all seater, meaning space super person is more than bit was then. Secondly because the hateful pens have been abolished. Fans were, literally, penned in at Hillsborough and had no way of getting away from the crush”
“In reply to grafenwalder, it's unlikely to happen now for two reasons, firstly because stadia are all seater, meaning space super person is more than bit was then. Secondly because the hateful pens have been abolished. Fans were, literally, penned in at Hillsborough and had no way of getting away from the crush”
The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“
snip
The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted.”
“
snip
The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted.”
A rather long but none the less interesting essay about the introduction of fences at football stadiums and the prevailing attitudes of the time.
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/
Originally Posted by patsylimerick:
“Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd.”
“Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd.”
I understand where your coming from, I think most people think the FA do have a lot of questions to answer, the point is were the FA entitled to believe the ground was safe. Theres no doubt they did know of all the past problems at the ground, they had asked the police if the Liverpool fans could have the larger Spion Kop end as they had the bigger support, the police refused yet the FA still let the game stay at Hillsborough so yes they do deserve criticism. can they be held responsible legally, I will leave that to the experts, the argument will be the FA hired Hillsborough, if you hired a venue for a wedding etc and a disaster took place would you think it was fair if you got blamed, you will argue it was for other organizations like the local council etc who are to blame who should be checking safety certificates etc and you are perfectly entitled to believe the venue is safe.
Are the FA at fault on the day, absolutely not, how can they be. they have no authority to tell people where they should and shouldn't go. the FA were criticized for treating the day as a nice little jolly. VIP treatment from start to finish.
Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?
Originally Posted by td1983:
“Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?”
“Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?”
I also wondered how that came to light and also how they came across previously 'lost' video footage. Obviously that was a huge turning point (I would have thought).
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“I also wondered how that came to light and also how they came across previously 'lost' video footage. Obviously that was a huge turning point (I would have thought).”
“I also wondered how that came to light and also how they came across previously 'lost' video footage. Obviously that was a huge turning point (I would have thought).”
Professor Phil Scraton had talked to a police officer 3 times and on the 3rd occasion the officer gave him his original statement then the redacted statement and then the finished typed up statement, he then went to parliament to review all the statements and they were all there in thousands of boxes.
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“A rather long but none the less interesting essay about the introduction of fences at football stadiums and the prevailing attitudes of the time.
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/”
“A rather long but none the less interesting essay about the introduction of fences at football stadiums and the prevailing attitudes of the time.
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/”
Thanks for that. As you said, a long read but imo well worth it. It's very well written and told me much about terraces, pens and fencing. Also about the "old, crumbling, poorly maintained stadia, unhealthy, badly-constructed environments, providing almost no comfort for paying customers."
Quote:
“Although many fans preferred to stand at matches, and even today a large number of them would still like to see terraces brought back (because they create a more exciting atmosphere), the reality was that the terraces were implemented and maintained so irresponsibly in the 1980’s that they were an environment that invited trouble. Most fans were well-behaved, and they tolerated the grubby, uncomfortable conditions, but those who actually thrived on the conditions and really loved the squalor of it all were almost certainly going to be the sorts of people who enjoyed the uglier side of life in general.”
“Although many fans preferred to stand at matches, and even today a large number of them would still like to see terraces brought back (because they create a more exciting atmosphere), the reality was that the terraces were implemented and maintained so irresponsibly in the 1980’s that they were an environment that invited trouble. Most fans were well-behaved, and they tolerated the grubby, uncomfortable conditions, but those who actually thrived on the conditions and really loved the squalor of it all were almost certainly going to be the sorts of people who enjoyed the uglier side of life in general.”
I've just been on the phone with a cousin of mine who is a life long footie fan and been to many different stadiums. He told me fencing has completely gone now, it's not allowed. He also said in his opinion it was completely the wrong stadium to hold that match at as it hadn't got the capacity then and hasn't even now.
He said the match should have been held at somewhere like Manchester which had a much larger capacity in '89 and today still takes over 75,000.
I still don't like those tiny little doors i see at the Hillsborough stadium. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that!
[quote=td1983;82287125]Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?[i/QUOTE]
They were known many years ago in fact they were one of the arguments put forward for another inquest in the 90s, the Stuart Smith Scrutiny didn't think it made any difference to the outcome of the first inquest verdict. the vast ammount of changed statments wasn't know until the HIP files were released.
Many officers signed their statement and had no idea parts were deleted till 2014. 25 yrs after.
They were known many years ago in fact they were one of the arguments put forward for another inquest in the 90s, the Stuart Smith Scrutiny didn't think it made any difference to the outcome of the first inquest verdict. the vast ammount of changed statments wasn't know until the HIP files were released.
Many officers signed their statement and had no idea parts were deleted till 2014. 25 yrs after.
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“Thanks for that. Excellent article, and really conveys how it affected survivors.
The account of police officers sobbing in the temporary mortuary also made me wonder what on earth was going on within SYP that led to such a comprehensive cover-up. All those officers, the majority of whom must surely have been decent people, who either colluded or were coerced into going along with it must be feeling really ashamed
I hope more about the prevailing culture in that force comes out.”
“Thanks for that. Excellent article, and really conveys how it affected survivors.
The account of police officers sobbing in the temporary mortuary also made me wonder what on earth was going on within SYP that led to such a comprehensive cover-up. All those officers, the majority of whom must surely have been decent people, who either colluded or were coerced into going along with it must be feeling really ashamed
I hope more about the prevailing culture in that force comes out.”
I think it's inevitable that the IPCC investigations and Operation Resolve will uncover more about not just the SYP but West Midlands police too.
Have a read of the truly astonishing case of PC Tony Salt to see how a couple of members of West Midlands were behaving on the very night of the Hillsborough Disaster - on-duty drunkenness resulting in death, followed by cover-ups, media compliance, false confessions and fitting up 3 innocent patsies to take the blame for supposedly murdering a policeman, who it turned out had drunkenly bashed his head on a JCB...
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...2/pc-tony-salt
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-death-1715283
A couple of days later West Midlands were given the role of investigating SYP's role in the Hillsborough disaster. Not just to provide evidence for the Taylor Report and also the DPP for any potential criminal charges but also to provide evidence for the coroner re cause of death of the victims. A key part in this investigation was given to DS Stan Beechey, former head of the West Midland Crime Squad which had recently been disbanded for fabricating evidence, obtaining confessions under duress and the planting of forensic evidence.
I'm not suggesting that the behaviour of a few policemen in SYP or West Midlands was representative of all of them, that would be ridiculous - there does appear to be enough evidence of problems with some members of both forces though. Given all the controversy and suspicions surrounding West Midlands Police, it's astonishing that they were given the job of investigating similar allegations against SYP. West Midland police then went on to be investigated by West Yorkshire police !
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted.”
“The pens I just could never grasp the mentality of that at all.
Bearing in mind this was 1989 yet over thirty years earlier as a young lad i used to watch cattle herded into pens for sale at the local market. But they were much better treated. Straw covered the cold concrete floor and every pen had food/water baskets fitted.”
At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“ Has the Hillsborough ground itself been radically overhauled and restructured? Looking at it on Google earth the surroundings still look extremely archaic and run down surrounded by rows of tiny terraced houses cheek by jowl with the ground. Is it a poor club?”
“ Has the Hillsborough ground itself been radically overhauled and restructured? Looking at it on Google earth the surroundings still look extremely archaic and run down surrounded by rows of tiny terraced houses cheek by jowl with the ground. Is it a poor club?”
This article covers it well
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html
The fences are gone and seats installed but the Leppings Lane End is a truly depressing place - I remember the first time I went there as an away fan, seeing that infamous tunnel in front of you....
Originally Posted by WeeJintyMcGinty:
“I think it's inevitable that the IPCC investigations and Operation Resolve will uncover more about not just the SYP but West Midlands police too.
Have a read of the truly astonishing case of PC Tony Salt to see how a couple of members of West Midlands were behaving on the very night of the Hillsborough Disaster - on-duty drunkenness resulting in death, followed by cover-ups, media compliance, false confessions and fitting up 3 innocent patsies to take the blame for supposedly murdering a policeman, who it turned out had drunkenly bashed his head on a JCB...
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...2/pc-tony-salt
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-death-1715283
A couple of days later West Midlands were given the role of investigating SYP's role in the Hillsborough disaster. Not just to provide evidence for the Taylor Report and also the DPP for any potential criminal charges but also to provide evidence for the coroner re cause of death of the victims. A key part in this investigation was given to DS Stan Beechey, former head of the West Midland Crime Squad which had recently been disbanded for fabricating evidence, obtaining confessions under duress and the planting of forensic evidence.
I'm not suggesting that the behaviour of a few policemen in SYP or West Midlands was representative of all of them, that would be ridiculous - there does appear to be enough evidence of problems with some members of both forces though. Given all the controversy and suspicions surrounding West Midlands Police, it's astonishing that they were given the job of investigating similar allegations against SYP. West Midland police then went on to be investigated by West Yorkshire police !”
“I think it's inevitable that the IPCC investigations and Operation Resolve will uncover more about not just the SYP but West Midlands police too.
Have a read of the truly astonishing case of PC Tony Salt to see how a couple of members of West Midlands were behaving on the very night of the Hillsborough Disaster - on-duty drunkenness resulting in death, followed by cover-ups, media compliance, false confessions and fitting up 3 innocent patsies to take the blame for supposedly murdering a policeman, who it turned out had drunkenly bashed his head on a JCB...
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...2/pc-tony-salt
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...-death-1715283
A couple of days later West Midlands were given the role of investigating SYP's role in the Hillsborough disaster. Not just to provide evidence for the Taylor Report and also the DPP for any potential criminal charges but also to provide evidence for the coroner re cause of death of the victims. A key part in this investigation was given to DS Stan Beechey, former head of the West Midland Crime Squad which had recently been disbanded for fabricating evidence, obtaining confessions under duress and the planting of forensic evidence.
I'm not suggesting that the behaviour of a few policemen in SYP or West Midlands was representative of all of them, that would be ridiculous - there does appear to be enough evidence of problems with some members of both forces though. Given all the controversy and suspicions surrounding West Midlands Police, it's astonishing that they were given the job of investigating similar allegations against SYP. West Midland police then went on to be investigated by West Yorkshire police !”
This is where I think you can't seperate the actions from the times they took place in. At that particular time there was a perception that Authority/Establishment would always get their way and the Police Force were the gate keepers to this. They were unchallengeable because they had the weight of authority on their side. When you work in an atmosphere like that, where there is a tacit understanding that whatever the situation, you are on the right side of it then it's hardly surprising that lines get crossed and boundaries pushed further and further. Of course, it doesn't apply across the board but there do seem to have been pockets where it was almost cultural.
Add to that the fact the establishment of the time seemed to view any crowd with nervousness and young people in crowds for any reason (my own experience was mainly based around pop concerts but the attitudes were distrustful at best) were viewed with suspicion. There's no wonder really that a crowd based incident occurred. It could have happened anywhere - not just a football match.
Originally Posted by Duke-of-URL:
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
Yes it was - there was very little thought for the safety of the fans though. Of course football 'hooliganism' was a big issue at that time and this was seen as a way of 'dealing' with it.
The article I posted above explains it all very well (I think) - it is lengthy but it kind of puts the attitudes of the time into perspective.
It is long but if you are genuinely interested it's a really good read.
Originally Posted by Duke-of-URL:
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
Yes and the article posted by Penny Crayon covers this in much detail. It's very well written and though lengthy i'd urge anyone, football fan or not, to read all of it. I looked up the writer, Martin Odoni, but all i could find was his Twitter and FB page but he does seem to be a football fan.
https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...rical-context/
Originally Posted by dreadnought:
“This article covers it well
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html
The fences are gone and seats installed but the Leppings Lane End is a truly depressing place - I remember the first time I went there as an away fan, seeing that infamous tunnel in front of you....”
“This article covers it well
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html
The fences are gone and seats installed but the Leppings Lane End is a truly depressing place - I remember the first time I went there as an away fan, seeing that infamous tunnel in front of you....”
That's what i was looking at yesterday on Google earth. To me it still looks like something out of the 1950's. Morbidly depressing. All it needs is few Andy Capp characters hanging around outside to complete the setting.
That article is interesting and despite 'improvements' made to the tunnel, i still don't feel it should be there. Not when you have hundreds or thousands of people going through. I can understand why some people felt it should have been razed to the ground.
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“Yes it was - there was very little thought for the safety of the fans though. Of course football 'hooliganism' was a big issue at that time and this was seen as a way of 'dealing' with it.
The article I posted above explains it all very well (I think) - it is lengthy but it kind of puts the attitudes of the time into perspective.
It is long but if you are genuinely interested it's a really good read.”
“Yes it was - there was very little thought for the safety of the fans though. Of course football 'hooliganism' was a big issue at that time and this was seen as a way of 'dealing' with it.
The article I posted above explains it all very well (I think) - it is lengthy but it kind of puts the attitudes of the time into perspective.
It is long but if you are genuinely interested it's a really good read.”
Couldn't agree more. I read the entire article last night and as i've posted, it certainly explained a lot and confirmed what i've believed.
Since the outcome of the inquiry i'm now wondering if the FA as the governing body of football hold any responsibility for Hillsborough?
Originally Posted by Duke-of-URL:
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
“At the risk of getting shot down, wasn't the mentality of segregation by pens an attempt to isolate and contain potential trouble, and stop fans getting onto the pitch and to each other?”
Yes but they weren't compulsory,? it was completely up to each ground whether they wanted to have pens or not.
Looking back it's a reflection of the mindset of the clubs attitude towards fans more than anything.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“That article is interesting and despite 'improvements' made to the tunnel, i still don't feel it should be there. Not when you have hundreds or thousands of people going through. I can understand why some people felt it should have been razed to the ground.”
“That article is interesting and despite 'improvements' made to the tunnel, i still don't feel it should be there. Not when you have hundreds or thousands of people going through. I can understand why some people felt it should have been razed to the ground.”
Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“I'm taking a very broad open view here but my opinion is one major problem with our football grounds is most are sited in heavily built up populated areas. This may well have been fine when the grounds were first built as few people owned cars.
Why don't they build them well away from towns, cities or residential areas?”
“I'm taking a very broad open view here but my opinion is one major problem with our football grounds is most are sited in heavily built up populated areas. This may well have been fine when the grounds were first built as few people owned cars.
Why don't they build them well away from towns, cities or residential areas?”
When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time.
I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station.
To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good.
ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house!
Last edited by LakieLady : 03-05-2016 at 16:50
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time.
I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station.
To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good.
ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house!”
“When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time.
I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station.
To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good.
ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house!”
So did I !!
Not right on top of it but VERY close - used to work nearby too - I remember in the seventies most of the shops in Thornton Heath High Street used to lock/board up on a Saturday afternoon. My aunt used to actually live in Holmesdale Road.
Originally Posted by Muttley76:
“Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.”
“Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.”
It doesn't seem to me the clubs commit much by way of cost to improving facilities. Maybe it's time to reign in footballers stratospheric salaries and start improving grounds, but i suspect that will never happen!
Originally Posted by LakieLady:
“When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time.
I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station.
To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good.
ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house!”
“When Brighton & Hove Albion finally got their new ground, it was built in open countryside a few miles away from the city centre. It was hugely controversial, even though this was before the South Downs became a national park.
The development was opposed by by neighbouring councils and the board of the South Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, there was an expensive planning enquiry and legal challenges and the consent was ultimately given by John Prescott, who was the relevant minister at the time.
I suspect that proposals for any out-of-town stadium would meet with similar opposition, unless it was on a brownfield site with good transport links. The Amex causes awful traffic problems on match days, despite being adjacent to a major dual carriageway and next to a rail station.
To this day, many believe it was the wrong site. My own view is that the site of an old cement works outside Shoreham would have been preferable, and to this day I hate the sight of the stadium, even though the design is pretty good.
ETA: I must declare a bias here, I used to live near Selhurst Park, all through the years they were groundsharing, and vowed never to live near a football ground again. Then they went and built one less than 5 miles from my house!”
Is this the club site? http://oi63.tinypic.com/293ajhw.jpg
That's the sort of location i believe should be standard for all clubs though looking closer at it there appears to be small blocks which appear to be residential flats at the bottom right of image. If those were built after the stadium then that's pretty stupid and defeats the purpose, but if already there then the stadium is in the wrong place.
I would have moved it a couple of miles further N/E where there is nothing for miles yet still easily accessible as the A27 runs the length of that open land.
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“It doesn't seem to me the clubs commit much by way of cost to improving facilities. Maybe it's time to reign in footballers stratospheric salaries and start improving grounds, but i suspect that will never happen!
”
“It doesn't seem to me the clubs commit much by way of cost to improving facilities. Maybe it's time to reign in footballers stratospheric salaries and start improving grounds, but i suspect that will never happen!
”
Generally, I'd say that the ones that receive 'stratospheric' salaries tend to generate enough interest and income to justify their salaries.
Whether you like his salary or not,, for example, people are willing to pay to see C. Ronaldo play.
They want his name on the back of his shirts, they want to see him on television.
A lot of that money generated goes back into the club.
It's market forces at work.
Originally Posted by Muttley76:
“Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.”
“Must admit, i've always found it surprising that given what happened they didn't make more dramatic changes to the area. Obviously there is a financial cost to the club, but there's also something about making a statement rather than doing what they had to to comply, and it would have been investment.”
When you consider just how cheap it would have been fro SWFC to make those structual changes then it really hammers home just how little consideration they gave to the fans and their safety.
SWFC would only have had to pay 25% of the cost of any improvements to Hillsborough. the FA would have paid the other 75%
They asked for a quote to improve Leppings lane which would add more turnstiles. they got the quote back and then had another quote made with less turnstiles. that bill was far cheaper. they went with the cheaper quote with less turnstiles.
Originally Posted by patsylimerick:
“Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd.”
“Still remember watching Hillsborough unfold on RTE on the day itself. It was devastating to see, even from such a distance away and with no association whatsoever with the team or anyone in attendance. If the families and relatives are happy with the inquest, then I'm happy for them. Once, many moons ago, I was at a gaelic football match between Cork and Kerry in Killarney and our terrace became so overcrowded that the stewards left us onto the pitch. It was a minor incident, the crush only lasted for a few short minutes, but it was still a terrifying feeling to have no control over where your body was being carried. I just cannot imagine the anguish that the families of the injured and dead felt at the time and have felt since.
The only thing that strikes me about the tone of this long, long thread is the focus on the police on the day itself. Absolutely, in the aftermath, their actions were despicable. But on the day itself, I'm surprised that the police force would have such a pivotal role. I would have expected the major responsibility to lie with the FA. If something iike this happened at a GAA match, I'd assume it would be the GAA who would have the most questions to answer. The Gardai and supporting staff, medics etc. would be involved, but only in a supporting role. It just strikes me as slightly odd.”
Probably owing to the issues beginning outside the stadium I'd imagine.
Your point about the overcrowding at a GAA match is an interesting one because I still think the fencing in of Hill 16 is going to cause a potential Hillsborough repeat in the future.
Originally Posted by Sebastian1992:
“Generally, I'd say that the ones that receive 'stratospheric' salaries tend to generate enough interest and income to justify their salaries.
Whether you like his salary or not,, for example, people are willing to pay to see C. Ronaldo play.
They want his name on the back of his shirts, they want to see him on television.
A lot of that money generated goes back into the club.
It's market forces at work.”
“Generally, I'd say that the ones that receive 'stratospheric' salaries tend to generate enough interest and income to justify their salaries.
Whether you like his salary or not,, for example, people are willing to pay to see C. Ronaldo play.
They want his name on the back of his shirts, they want to see him on television.
A lot of that money generated goes back into the club.
It's market forces at work.”
So why have so many club grounds/stadia/facilities remained stuck in a 1950's time warp? If as you say "people are willing to pay to see Ronaldo", where is the money going because it certainly doesn't seem to be facilities being particularly high up on their list of priorities and that's the point i was making?
This is the outside of Hillsborough West stand (Leppings Lane) shot by Google earth in September 2015. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qnz8mg.jpg
Look at the drab uninviting facade. It looks almost unchanged since 1989. Look at the visitor entrance doors. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that - it even looks more welcoming too!
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“So why have so many club grounds/stadia/facilities remained stuck in a 1950's time warp? If as you say "people are willing to pay to see Ronaldo", where is the money going because it certainly doesn't seem to be facilities being particularly high up on their list of priorities and that's the point i was making?
This is the outside of Hillsborough West stand (Leppings Lane) shot by Google earth in September 2015. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qnz8mg.jpg
Look at the drab uninviting facade. It looks almost unchanged since 1989. Look at the visitor entrance doors. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that - it even looks more welcoming too!”
“So why have so many club grounds/stadia/facilities remained stuck in a 1950's time warp? If as you say "people are willing to pay to see Ronaldo", where is the money going because it certainly doesn't seem to be facilities being particularly high up on their list of priorities and that's the point i was making?
This is the outside of Hillsborough West stand (Leppings Lane) shot by Google earth in September 2015. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2qnz8mg.jpg
Look at the drab uninviting facade. It looks almost unchanged since 1989. Look at the visitor entrance doors. The door into my garden shed is bigger than that - it even looks more welcoming too!”
Ronaldo plays for Real Madrid.
They're a world away from Sheffield Wednesday who play in the Championship, and don't have the revenue to sort anything out.
How much do you think they pay their players?
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