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Hillsborouģh
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Grafenwalder
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by Sebastian1992:
“Ronaldo plays for Real Madrid.

They're a world away from Sheffield Wednesday who play in the Championship, and don't have the revenue to sort anything out.

How much do you think they pay their players?”

I've no idea. Sourcing info regarding their salaries is all rather vague but it seems the club were willing to splash a few million to try and get this guy last year. Don't know if it went through or not.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...jordan-6834882
patsylimerick
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by jeffiner1892:
“Probably owing to the issues beginning outside the stadium I'd imagine.

Your point about the overcrowding at a GAA match is an interesting one because I still think the fencing in of Hill 16 is going to cause a potential Hillsborough repeat in the future.”

I've never been on the Hill. Being a Corkonian, I've tended to end up in other parts of the stadium over the years. I'm not familiar with the entrance points, but it's probably time that terracing was done away with altogether. And I'm saying that as someone who in my 20s would have taken a terrace ticket any day over a stand ticket - you couldn't beat the atmosphere and craic. Nowadays, I'm happier with my ass on a seat.
jeffiner1892
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by patsylimerick:
“I've never been on the Hill. Being a Corkonian, I've tended to end up in other parts of the stadium over the years. I'm not familiar with the entrance points, but it's probably time that terracing was done away with altogether. And I'm saying that as someone who in my 20s would have taken a terrace ticket any day over a stand ticket - you couldn't beat the atmosphere and craic. Nowadays, I'm happier with my ass on a seat.”

I haven't actually been on it since the barrier went up, but I've stood on the terrace in a couple of other grounds.

I just think it was stupid that they erected it to "prevent pitch invasions" when it could a. cause more harm than good, b. why are they the only ones fenced in when the incident that sparked it (Leinster final 2010) involved supporters entering the field of play from all corners and c. that pitch invasion was down to incompetent refereeing
patsylimerick
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by jeffiner1892:
“I haven't actually been on it since the barrier went up, but I've stood on the terrace in a couple of other grounds.

I just think it was stupid that they erected it to "prevent pitch invasions" when it could a. cause more harm than good, b. why are they the only ones fenced in when the incident that sparked it (Leinster final 2010) involved supporters entering the field of play from all corners and c. that pitch invasion was down to incompetent refereeing”

Absolutely. Pitch 'invasion' is such a rare occurrence in GAA anyway. The danger of a crush far outweighs any potential fisticuffs on the pitch in the case of GAA.
Sebastian1992
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“I've no idea. Sourcing info regarding their salaries is all rather vague but it seems the club were willing to splash a few million to try and get this guy last year. Don't know if it went through or not.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...jordan-6834882”

No, he went to Middlesborough for 9 million.

If Sheffield Wednesday make it to the premier league, and can stabilise in that division, then and only then, would they look at stadium renovation.

It's not as simple as paying less wages, because the wage structure at that club would never pay the sort of wages you're describing.

Sometimes, when you have very little understanding of a subject, it's better to just trust those who do..
Hobbes1966
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by Aaron11:
“Oh I can understand people doubting my story, I think I may have done the same if somebody else posted and their DOB didn't add up.

Anyway I've shared my experience from inside the ground now I'll share my experiences after.

So me and my mate got out of the ground at about 3:45pm and we both decided we needed to contact home somehow and let people know we was alright as people would be worrying, luckily we both had our wallets with us still without a penny missing, I did think we would have lost them in the crush but luckily we didn't so we set off to find as phone box, obviously mobile phones in them days were in it's infancy and not many if any people carried one, every phone box we saw had a queue of about 250/300 people, we didn't fancy queuing because it would take hours, so we started jogging around, going down random streets looking, suddenly we jogged past this house and an old lady was doing something in her garden, she must have been in her 80s, we must be about a mile and half from the ground because we had been jogging for like 20 odd mins, she stopped us and said "are you from the football ground" we said "yes we are looking for a phone to phone home and let people know we are safe" she said "come in and use mine, there are 30 dead apparently" so in we went to this old lady's home, as we walked through the door the radio was reporting 40 dead, I could not get through to my house, line was engaged but I got through to my uncle who drove round to my house with the news I was safe, my mate couldn't get through either so he rang his next door neighbour, we both offered some money to cover the call but she turned it down bless her, we then asked for the way to the train station so we could get home but her husband said he'll drive us as it's 4 miles away, we had the radio on in the car and the death toll kept rising, 50, 60, 70, it was horrible to listen to, at the train station we offered him petrol money but he turnedb it down, I'll always be grateful to the old couple who let us use the phone and then drove us to the railway station, so nice and courteous they were, I'll never forget their kindness.

Later on at home, I opened the door and all my family was in the front room, uncle cousin aunt, grand dad, Grand ma and they all gave me a hug, I just said "how many " and my dad said so far 85 are dead, I just ran up stairs laid on my bed and cried, later that night I was watching the news and when Moira Stuart started talking about it I ran up stairs again, I didn't sleep at all that night, the following day I went to the hospital because my ribsb were hurting, they said "what happened to you " I replied with "I was at Hillsborough yesterday " and that brought tears, I had bruised ribs, later that day I met with all my mates from school and it was a relief to see them

On the Wednesday when my dad said the Sun are blaming the fans I picked up the paper and hurled it across the room, never read the Sun since.

I missed school for a week, I struggled to cope, often waking up in the middle of the night crying having nightmares, I used to randomly shout and scream, and turn violent, first week in May I seeked some help and I got diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, I received counselling for 2 years, went through every emotion, shock, anger, guilt, new years eve 1989, 8 months after the disaster, told my parents everything, absolutely everything, in graphic detail, i spent 3 hours recalling every single move I took that day, told them how i got talking to a lad on the train pre match and hours later he was standing next to me dead, I literally said it all, and the fact I got it off my chest I felt so much better.

It makes me tear up now typing this, I'll never forget a second of that day, I remember every single second of that day and always will.

So many people involved, so many people affected mentally”

This and your previous posts have brought tears to my eyes. It must have been painful writing that.
Thank you for sharing this. Within a thread as conflicted as this one is, your posts are the bottom line of what all the families were fighting for. The truth.
Grafenwalder
03-05-2016
Originally Posted by Sebastian1992:
“No, he went to Middlesborough for 9 million.”

Oh well there will be another one along soon!

Quote:
“If Sheffield Wednesday make it to the premier league, and can stabilise in that division, then and only then, would they look at stadium renovation.

It's not as simple as paying less wages, because the wage structure at that club would never pay the sort of wages you're describing.

Sometimes, when you have very little understanding of a subject, it's better to just trust those who do..”

No i don't expect it to be simple. Each club is a business and i recognise there are wealthy clubs and 'poor' (by comparison) clubs. I'm not entirely sure where the Sheffield club stand in the wealth bracket but i'm told by a friend of mine who is a football fan they are not exactly poor. Not being a football fan means i've been looking at the Hillsborough situation with a very wide open mind, ie i'm not swayed by fan fervour for want of a better description. It may seem a rose tinted glasses outlook and possibly not everything i've suggested is feasible, but i would like to believe changes could and should have been made and looking at the exterior of Hillsborough, it still leaves much to be desired imo.

I found the link posted by Penny Crayon very interesting to read and extremely informative. The writer goes to great lengths into explaining the mentality behind pens, fences and terraces - something which i was at odds with for a long time until i read what he had to say.

I also found the article linked by poster Dreadnought informative; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/spo...emolished.html

Yes i may not be a football fan, but having remembered vividly the Hillsborough disaster i was more than interested in following the inquiries, the outcome of which i believe is finally the correct one. That it took 27 years is unforgivable. Trusting those who understand the subject better, well the hierarchy within SYP were supposedly people of trust who understood 'the subject', but look what happened.

Sometimes an outsider looking in can see things which those of experience can't (or don't) see due to tunnel vision.
TeeGee
04-05-2016
The Blame Game, discussion BBC Radio 4.
darkjedimaster
04-05-2016
For anyone interested there is going to be a documentary this Sunday night which is all about the disaster.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...uk-tv-11276517

Who knows that those in denial may actually learn something
TeeGee
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by darkjedimaster:
“Who knows that those in denial may actually learn something”

Has everyone not heard enough already? There is no shortage of documentaries of many events which resulted, by a series of bad judgements, in considerable and even greater, loss of life.
Grafenwalder
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by darkjedimaster:
“For anyone interested there is going to be a documentary this Sunday night which is all about the disaster.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...uk-tv-11276517

Who knows that those in denial may actually learn something”

Thanks for that. I hope this documentary will give a much fuller and complete insight into everything concerning Hillsborough.

Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“Has everyone not heard enough already? There is no shortage of documentaries of many events which resulted, by a series of bad judgements, in considerable and even greater, loss of life.”

No, not me anyway. This has taken 27 years to get to the bottom of.
SaturnV
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by TeeGee:
“Has everyone not heard enough already? There is no shortage of documentaries of many events which resulted, by a series of bad judgements, in considerable and even greater, loss of life.”

Strikes me that you'd benefit from watching if you don't understand why this is different to other tragedies.
This is only the start for some aspects so very much a current topic
BanglaRoad
04-05-2016
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...reave-11279764
New evidence against the corrupt activities of SYP during the 80s.
LakieLady
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by Penny Crayon:
“So did I !! Not right on top of it but VERY close - used to work nearby too - I remember in the seventies most of the shops in Thornton Heath High Street used to lock/board up on a Saturday afternoon. My aunt used to actually live in Holmesdale Road.”

It was hell. When I lived in a flat with lots of parking, football supporters used to park in our car park. The caretaker got a chain and padlock that he used to put across the entrance on match days, and gave us all keys. The second time it was used, footie fans cut through the chain and parked there anyway.

Then I moved nearer to Croydon, and it was impossible to drive to the supermarket in Thornton Heath because the crowds were just constantly crossing the 6 zebra crossings between my house and Tesco. You were lucky to move a car length in 10 minutes.

I was often caught out by evening matches, and it once took me 2 hours to get from the top of South Norwood Hill to the railway bridge in Whitehorse Road, about 2 or 3 miles.

Mr Lakie used to live very close to Selhurst Station. If he took the car out on a match day, he had to stay out until at least 5.30 because he couldn't get near his house any earlier than that. He couldn't open the windows, either, because of the pong from the smelly burger stall that used to appear on the corner of the street.

I hated it with a vengeance.
LakieLady
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by Grafenwalder:
“Is this the club site? http://oi63.tinypic.com/293ajhw.jpg

That's the sort of location i believe should be standard for all clubs though looking closer at it there appears to be small blocks which appear to be residential flats at the bottom right of image. If those were built after the stadium then that's pretty stupid and defeats the purpose, but if already there then the stadium is in the wrong place.

I would have moved it a couple of miles further N/E where there is nothing for miles yet still easily accessible as the A27 runs the length of that open land.”

Yes, that's the Amex. The aerial view doesn't really convey what a blot on the landscape it is. It sticks out like a sore thumb and spoils the view from the South Downs Way, and the lovely downland views as you come over the Downs from the Brighton racecourse direction.

The blocks of flats are some university buildings and a sports club, and they're down in a dip and not really visible from the road. The reason I favoured the cement works site is because it would be in a dip and only really visible from the road.

A couple of miles north-east would bring it closer to Lewes, a historic county town. The only exit from the A27 between the Amex and Lewes is a track to 2 farms, one on each side of the A27, and that "open land" is mostly grade A agricultural land and in private ownership. A site further north-east wouldn't have the benefit of a rail station almost next door, either.

The A27 is a very busy road, and gets very congested at peak times. On match days, the queues leaving the A27 eastbound tail back a good mile or more into Brighton and although it's dual carriageway, both lanes get blocked. The westbound traffic isn't as bad, unless you want to go to the Kemptown end of Brighton, in which case you can queue for 30 minutes or more before you get past the stadium.

I have a friend who lives in Rottingdean, and she once made the mistake of trying to get on to the A27 on a match day. It took her an hour and a half. The next time, she went via central Brighton, and that took her over an hour! It's not so bad when it's just alternate Saturdays, you can plan for it, but when teams get into playoffs and stuff it can get very vexing.
benayoun
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by td1983:
“Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?”

Really ,you think that,? It was common knowledge in 1993 about doctored statements by SYP. 100 plus charged with unlawful assembly when the police went against the miners at Orgreave, thrown out of court because SYP the doctored their statements. What happened at Hillsborough was rehearsed at Orgreave

Justice delayed is justice denayed
WeeJintyMcGinty
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by td1983:
“Just a question about the altered statements, I was wondering, they only seemed to come to light in recent years, how come no one who knew that their statement to the police was altered ever mentioned them publicly before. Were they gagged or something?”

Sorry I missed your post until Benayoun just quoted it.

From as far back as the Taylor Report in '89 it had been suspected that police statements had been altered (just as witness statements were manipulated and altered by West Midland Police) ...actual confirmation came in '96, yet astonishingly it took over a decade after that before the 'powers that be' acknowledged their significance.

There's a video of Phil Scraton describing how he first found out here...

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2016...ments-changed/

Scraton then got access to boxes of police statements in the House Of Lords and found out that loads of them had been altered.
toastie
04-05-2016
This is heart-wrenching to listen to.

Trevor & Jenni's journey http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03sldwr (Trevor & Jenni Hicks)
lockes no 1 fan
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by toastie:
“This is heart-wrenching to listen to.

Trevor & Jenni's journey http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03sldwr (Trevor & Jenni Hicks)”

Thanks I have been looking for this today
Ethel_Fred
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by benayoun:
“Really ,you think that,? It was common knowledge in 1993 about doctored statements by SYP. 100 plus charged with unlawful assembly when the police went against the miners at Orgreave, thrown out of court because SYP the doctored their statements. What happened at Hillsborough was rehearsed at Orgreave

Justice delayed is justice denayed”

How many died at Hillsborough because of the failure to sack a single police officer who lied at Orgreave
WeeJintyMcGinty
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by Ethel_Fred:
“How many died at Hillsborough because of the failure to sack a single police officer who lied at Orgreave”

What a truly bizarre statement, or was it a question ? Has anyone ever suggested that people died at Hillsborough as a result of the failure to sack police for their involvement in Orgreave ? If so, please provide evidence/links
lockes no 1 fan
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by WeeJintyMcGinty:
“What a truly bizarre statement, or was it a question ? Has anyone ever suggested that people died at Hillsborough as a result of the failure to sack police for their involvement in Orgreave ? If so, please provide evidence/links”

I think its a fairly straight forward statement to be honest, how many could have been saved if action had of been taken against SYP after Orgreave
WeeJintyMcGinty
04-05-2016
Originally Posted by lockes no 1 fan:
“I think its a fairly straight forward statement to be honest, how many could have been saved if action had of been taken against SYP after Orgreave”

Ah right thanks, I wasn't sure what point was being made there at all. I totally agree that there should be a full inquest into what happened at Orgreave - but I'm not convinced if such an inquiry had taken place in the immediate aftermath of the miner's strike it would have saved lives at H'boro.

I can see potential links between Orgreave/Hillsborough re an out of control police force who felt they could do what they liked without censure from central govt and that the govt could be relied upon to be complicit in helping to cover-up their illegal activities - but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that lives could have been saved as a result.
Fizzbin
05-05-2016
And they're still at it - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...yside-36216684
WeeJintyMcGinty
05-05-2016
It looks like the SYP are finding it harder to find hired hands who are prepared to abandon their principles to lie and spin on their behalf...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...media-11291374

Their bullying goes on.
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