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Old 11-05-2016, 21:41
clewsy
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I think Hutch will exit the UK now and O2 will go to Liberty Global, sad news really from my point of view, but most of you guys wanted it. Let's see where this leads us over the next couple of years, I doubt this big competitive utopia some paint.

It'll be the 2 incumbent telecoms companies swallowing mobile with global giant Vodafone off to one side, none of them are going to break a sweat for consumers, far too many pies in other ovens. The standalone mobile network will become the minority, to be replaced by bundles that BT and Libery Global weave, forcing all your eggs in one basket or making it very expensive not to buy multi-play.
It can only be good for the market. If three is up for sale it will need some customers tied into long contracts, so we can expect plenty of deals and well the rest of course will follow.

They won't sell up though I suspect until they get the best deal.
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Old 11-05-2016, 22:32
Faust
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Typical EU. Let BT, a company famous for faiing to deliver, take over the best UK network. Then stop 2 networks, hamstrung by lack of spectrum / investment from merging. They could have allowed it and taken enough spectrum from 3O2 to offer bids for another 4th network.

So, now we really only have 2 proper networks. EE and VOD. Then 2 lame dogs run by operators who probably now want out as soon as possible. Nice work EU.

There was a chance here to create a third, really good network and divest it of enough spectrum to allow another upstart (as 3 started out) to come in.

We really must leave the EU. Where does this leave the UK consumer? 1 dominant network. 1 with the money that is catching up. 2 crap networks who's owners have lost interest in. Brilliant.
I think you have got this totally back to front - it's the EU that is protecting the consumer in this instance. In other countries where the operator ratio has been reduced prices have risen and investment has fallen. Your real name isn't Boris by any chance is it?
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Old 11-05-2016, 22:38
Faust
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The EU did not have any say in the BT/EE takeover. It was all approved in London by the CMA.

(This is what worries me about the EU referendum. Many Brexiters seem to blame the EU for things it had no involvement in!)
Agreed, but hey when does the Brexit campaign ever let the facts get in the way of what they want. Little Englanders to a man/woman.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:02
Gigabit
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The right decision has been made in this case.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:08
Zebb
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Bad Day at Black Rock. (2016).
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:15
Stereo Steve
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I think you have got this totally back to front - it's the EU that is protecting the consumer in this instance. In other countries where the operator ratio has been reduced prices have risen and investment has fallen. Your real name isn't Boris by any chance is it?
No, my real name is Steve, the clue is in my user name. I accept that you and the other chap have picked up my post and decided to make it a Brexit issue. I didn't think it was. Surely, in a free society, I am able to make comments on a governing body? If I say a bad thing about the Tories, does that mean I must vote Labour for ever? Well does it? Only a dimwit would think that.

My point was that currently, 3 and O2 are pretty fukked and nobody with a working brain cell would argue with that. The merger, with an appropriate amount of spectrum divested to another new entrant would have meant we had 3 strong networks in the UK with space for a new upstart.
As it is we are still lumbered with 2 who have the capability to compete and 2 who are lame ducks. Good for the consumer? No.

My comment on the EU was merely pointing out that there are too many pointless morons who can't see the simple truth.

I honestly had faith in the EU and thought this deal would go through with some serious negotiation on divesting spectrum. I think it's a shame for the UK consumer that it didn't and will now lead to TEL and Hutch throwing their toys out of the pram and selling up to god know's who. Meanwhile, EE can charge what they like and I'll probably end up paying it.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:24
d123
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No, my real name is Steve, the clue is in my user name. I accept that you and the other chap have picked up my post and decided to make it a Brexit issue. I didn't think it was. Surely, in a free society, I am able to make comments on a governing body? If I say a bad thing about the Tories, does that mean I must vote Labour for ever? Well does it? Only a dimwit would think that.

My point was that currently, 3 and O2 are pretty fukked and nobody with a working brain cell would argue with that. The merger, with an appropriate amount of spectrum divested to another new entrant would have meant we had 3 strong networks in the UK with space for a new upstart.
As it is we are still lumbered with 2 who have the capability to compete and 2 who are lame ducks. Good for the consumer? No.
Just to pull you up on a few points, firstly. O2 is actually in a reasonable position, it has a rapidly improving network and a good customer base to build from. It will be a tempting purchase for someone and can only get stronger.

Three? Who cares, they have done too much wrong in the last 2 years for many to care about them. Maybe Hutch will put the investment mark in to get them moving again.

My comment on the EU was merely pointing out that there are too many pointless morons who can't see the simple truth.

I honestly had faith in the EU and thought this deal would go through with some serious negotiation on divesting spectrum. I think it's a shame for the UK consumer that it didn't and will now lead to TEL and Hutch throwing their toys out of the pram and selling up to god know's who. Meanwhile, EE can charge what they like and I'll probably end up paying it.
Secondly, you don't get it that the EU did the right thing, you having faith that the EU would be anticompetitive and go against what's best for consumers was a mistake on your part. Other than giving Three customers access to the o2 network there was very little good to come out of that merger.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:24
Faust
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No, my real name is Steve, the clue is in my user name. I accept that you and the other chap have picked up my post and decided to make it a Brexit issue. I didn't think it was. Surely, in a free society, I am able to make comments on a governing body? If I say a bad thing about the Tories, does that mean I must vote Labour for ever? Well does it? Only a dimwit would think that.

My point was that currently, 3 and O2 are pretty fukked and nobody with a working brain cell would argue with that. The merger, with an appropriate amount of spectrum divested to another new entrant would have meant we had 3 strong networks in the UK with space for a new upstart.
As it is we are still lumbered with 2 who have the capability to compete and 2 who are lame ducks. Good for the consumer? No.

My comment on the EU was merely pointing out that there are too many pointless morons who can't see the simple truth.

I honestly had faith in the EU and thought this deal would go through with some serious negotiation on divesting spectrum. I think it's a shame for the UK consumer that it didn't and will now lead to TEL and Hutch throwing their toys out of the pram and selling up to god know's who. Meanwhile, EE can charge what they like and I'll probably end up paying it.
You really need to read the EU report into why this deal has been rejected. You are making comments that do not bear any relation to the actual facts. You may just as well blame the indigenous people of the Americas for this deal not going through as it would be about as accurate as your initial assessment.

Ofcom didn't want it, the CMA didn't want it, the EU has agreed. The reason none of these regulators wanted it is because it wouldn't serve the best interests of the consumer.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:28
Stereo Steve
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You really need to read the EU report into why this deal has been rejected. You are making comments that do not bear any relation to the actual facts. You may just as well blame the indigenous people of the Americas for this deal not going through as it would be about as accurate as your initial assessment.

Ofcom didn't want it, the CMA didn't want it, the EU has agreed. The reason none of these regulators wanted it is because it wouldn't serve the best interests of the consumer.
I disagree. It would have. That is my right. The end.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:29
Stereo Steve
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I should have said 'End of' as then I could repeat it endlessly.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:31
Stereo Steve
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Just to pull you up on a few points, firstly. O2 is actually in a reasonable position, it has a rapidly improving network and a good customer base to build from. It will be a tempting purchase for someone and can only get stronger.

Three? Who cares, they have done too much wrong in the last 2 years for many to care about them. Maybe Hutch will put the investment mark in to get them moving again.



Secondly, you don't get it that the EU did the right thing, you having faith that the EU would be anticompetitive and go against what's best for consumers was a mistake on your part. Other than giving Three customers access to the o2 network there was very little good to come out of that merger.
3. Who cares? Wasn't the point to have 4 strong networks in the UK? Now you don't care about 3? Cast them adrift. Just have 3.

Ooops. That's what I just said.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:39
Stereo Steve
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Secondly, you don't get it that the EU did the right thing, you having faith that the EU would be anticompetitive and go against what's best for consumers was a mistake on your part. Other than giving Three customers access to the o2 network there was very little good to come out of that merger.
No, I don't believe that for a second. That is just plain rubbish.

OK.OK. OK.

Take your average 3 user. He's got fast data but his phone sometimes, too often doesn't ring.

Take your average O2 user. His phone always rings but he can't get on that new fangled intertube thing that all his mates are on.

Blend them in a blender. Tada. Happy people.

That could have happened with this merger.

As it is we will still have Keith getting blistering speeds but his wife can't get hold of him when his kid gets a football in the eye. Then we'll have Barry who's wife can always get hold of him but probably doesn't want to because he's on O2.
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Old 11-05-2016, 23:57
wilt
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But you can resolve both of those issues without merging Three and O2 together...
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Old 12-05-2016, 00:02
binary
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...
My point was that currently, 3 and O2 are pretty fukked and nobody with a working brain cell would argue with that. The merger, with an appropriate amount of spectrum divested to another new entrant would have meant we had 3 strong networks in the UK with space for a new upstart.
As it is we are still lumbered with 2 who have the capability to compete and 2 who are lame ducks. Good for the consumer? No.
...
I would argue with your analysis, and I do have a working brain cell. O2 at present is not 'pretty f---ed', it is part of an infrastructure share with Vodafone (Cornerstone) that is allowing it to roll out 4G and concurrent improvements to its 2G and 3G networks at some considerable pace. If anything is 'pretty f---ed' it is O2's owner Telefonica, who are working under the cloud of massive debts. Raising a big chunk of money to pay down some of this debt is why Telefonica wanted to sell O2 UK to CK Hutch, however it seems there are enough other potential suitors out there anyway.

Three... well perhaps they've done a bit of a job f---ing themselves of late, or indeed CK Hutch and its new direction somewhat f---ed Three UK (desire for more profit and to break out of being a challenger network).

I think the result certainly leaves the UK with three networks who are able to compete in the big league, and quite possibly four (particularly if Three were able to play the long game with 4G and VoLTE... though this would require Three to get on with rolling out a 4G network).
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Old 12-05-2016, 00:23
Stereo Steve
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I would argue with your analysis, and I do have a working brain cell. O2 at present is not 'pretty f---ed', it is part of an infrastructure share with Vodafone (Cornerstone) that is allowing it to roll out 4G and concurrent improvements to its 2G and 3G networks at some considerable pace. If anything is 'pretty f---ed' it is O2's owner Telefonica, who are working under the cloud of massive debts. Raising a big chunk of money to pay down some of this debt is why Telefonica wanted to sell O2 UK to CK Hutch, however it seems there are enough other potential suitors out there anyway.

Three... well perhaps they've done a bit of a job f---ing themselves of late, or indeed CK Hutch and its new direction somewhat f---ed Three UK (desire for more profit and to break out of being a challenger network).

I think the result certainly leaves the UK with three networks who are able to compete in the big league, and quite possibly four (particularly if Three were able to play the long game with 4G and VoLTE... though this would require Three to get on with rolling out a 4G network).
You just argued with me and then agreed with me that O2 and 3 are knackered. Anything else?
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Old 12-05-2016, 00:52
Randomguy1
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I think that sky or Tesco will buy O2 as sky mobile is launching later in the year and Liberty Global may buy Three
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:00
clewsy
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How are o2 and three f**ked for the future? That one I just understand as they both operate successfully now.

O2 are rapidly growing and investing in a good network, so that makes them fairly safe and secure. Three have the chance to buy more spectrum at the next auction and to set about investing in 4g if they choose to.

That isn't the markets fault. That is the choice of Three not to invest in 4g (with MBNL) so they must see the commercial logic in that.
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:37
maverickjesus
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As far as I can see Stereo Steve's whole argument is that the only way the market can function is if both O2 and Three merge to cover their deficiencies. This is patently untrue, Cornerstone is providing much better progress for O2 than anything Three has been doing, within 12-18 months EE, Vod & O2 will be right up there on nationwide 4G rollout.

Where Three is failing is complete mismanagement by its parent company, which has been plain to see for everyone over the past 2 years. If you think the solution to that is for Hutch to take on MORE of the UKs customers & infrastructure then I don't even know what to think. No regulator here or in the EU was ever going to let that happen, it would be absolutely barking. And what do you know, thats what happened! Its almost like your armchair analysis holds little weight

But whatever, maybe I should pout and make overblown statements. 'The end' indeed.
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:05
binary
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You just argued with me and then agreed with me that O2 and 3 are knackered. Anything else?
No I didn't, not in any way. Read it again.

Of course given that you stubbornly have your blinkers on it seems you'll only ever see what you want to see.
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:20
Thine Wonk
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No I didn't, not in any way. Read it again.

Of course given that you stubbornly have your blinkers on it seems you'll only ever see what you want to see.
Have you ever stopped to think that could actually be you?

Most of the hate at Three on this forum seems to be because of the price changes recently, which happened before any merger. People are basing their decisions on this, rather than keeping a cool head and thinking through the bigger picture. They are basically bitter and upset over that, rather than looking at the overall competition argument, looking at what has happened in Ireland where they are already one and what happened post merger there etc.

We'll now sadly end up with 2 massive home phone, TV and Broadband providers dominating our mobile industry, and they (especially Virgin) don't care about price increases and silly over subsidised quad plays that force you to take line rental on landlines, they won't be putting in the R&D in to InTouch apps etc as mobile will just be a part of a bigger TV, cable, landline, broadband business.

Well done all, well done, may as well shut the mobile forum and move it to the broadband / TV area along with BT and Virgin.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:12
planetf1
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So, now we really only have 2 proper networks. EE and VOD. Then 2 lame dogs run by operators who probably now want out as soon as possible. Nice work EU.

There was a chance here to create a third, really good network and divest it of enough spectrum to allow another upstart (as 3 started out) to come in.
Exactly this (though I don't think it's an EU vs UK issue as such)

I was really hoping we'd end up with three strong competitors, now it's 2. So that improves competition. So not convinced.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:13
jaffboy151
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Once three and finally finished emploding in around 12 months time, students of business should use them as a case study, how to destroy a 13 year old pioneering business in less then 2 years by putting l your eggs into one rotten basket, acting like the deal had already been done by treating your customers like dirt and woeful misdirected underinvestment in its infrastructure. 4g is the golden ticket, even O2 and Vodafone could see that.
If three had only not cut investment just when it was needed most, won some 2600mhz along with there 800mhz they could have had a fantastic network with good capacity, great speeds and real competition in the marketplace, instead then went for the easy win and now we have not a lot of anything good.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:35
jaffboy151
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Typical EU. Let BT, a company famous for faiing to deliver, take over the best UK network. Then stop 2 networks, hamstrung by lack of spectrum / investment from merging. They could have allowed it and taken enough spectrum from 3O2 to offer bids for another 4th network.

So, now we really only have 2 proper networks. EE and VOD. Then 2 lame dogs run by operators who probably now want out as soon as possible. Nice work EU.

There was a chance here to create a third, really good network and divest it of enough spectrum to allow another upstart (as 3 started out) to come in.

We really must leave the EU. Where does this leave the UK consumer? 1 dominant network. 1 with the money that is catching up. 2 crap networks who's owners have lost interest in. Brilliant.
The only was all this was ever going to work out well was if BT had bough back O2 and three had merged with EE, even then it was doubtful, but three buying O2 was always going to be too much of a sh*t storm to sort out.
Saying that, and everything else I think about how three has acted in the past 2 years, I'd still have had this merger go ahead 1000 times over instead of the BT EE deal, that deal is the real destroyer of competition and future investment in the communications sector, they were nieve to treat BT as a outside element, they now have total control of the industry at all levels which will start to show in the coming years.
Letting BT buy/merge with EE is like letting the Sun newspaper buy the BBC and ITV.
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:29
gomezz
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I think that sky or Tesco will buy O2 as sky mobile is launching later in the year and Liberty Global may buy Three
Tesco have enough problems of their own and been withdrawing back into their core business to try and turn things around so that won't happen.

If Sky buy O2 then I will I see that as a sign that is it time to ditch my unlimited 3G data contract and move elsewhere to get 4G (*) as I did when BT Infinity / MotoGP happened just as Sky were taking over O2's broadband business.

(*) Experience tells me that I only need 2GB even for a heavy month's usage especially with the availability of BT's free wi-fi hotspots all over the place. Just need the occasional radio streaming while on the move such as for this week's F1 free practise 2 session.
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:32
Faust
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I disagree. It would have. That is my right. The end.
Sounds to me like you are simply trying to convince yourself - no one else is buying your theory.
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