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The DS Eurovision General Discussion Thread (Part 61) |
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#2701 |
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I did hear that San Marino where in talks with the EBU about finding a replacement for them making up the votes of the Sammarinese public before they would commit
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#2702 |
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I am totally on San Marino's side here. I too would be pissed if my countries' public vote was essentially made up to suit the needs of everybody else. It is something which desperately needs to be dealt with, though how you do that with the way the votes and results are calculated now with the tele-vote 'bundling' and separate Jury and Tele-vote declarations is difficult to say.
For reference, the San Marinese ‘public’ vote Grand Final – Ukraine : 12 pts, Russia : 10 pts, Lithuania : 8 pts, Poland : 7 pts, Latvia : 6 pts, Australia : 5 pts, Sweden : 4 pts, Bulgaria : 3 pts, Armenia : 2 pts, Hungary : 1 pt. How the hell did this happen? Clearly we are supposed to believe that nobody in San Marino voted for Italy at all! IMPOSSIBLE! I can believe that top 5 countries scored well, they were all good entries. But no Italy? No Malta? Very few countries from the immediate vicinity or in the region, no France or Croatia for example who if San Marino had a million people, could have hoped for points of a genuine public vote just from voting for your neighbours and somewhat similar cultures alone. Strange, Eurovision is applying statistical models to one participating state but not to everybody else? That's fair? Doesn't that make winning even more arbitrary, even accidental than it already is? Actually, they probably should look at the voting over-all - the selection criteria used to choose Jury-members and the conduct of those juries should be tightened significantly and I'm not just talking about the Russian lady with the Armenian husband or the Danish jurors' infamous voting-form fail this time around. Also there ought to be some kind of handicapping brought in to punish deliberate political voting (though we knew from the start the Russian and Ukrainian juries were gonna blank each other regardless of how good Sergey and Jamala were on the night) or deliberate blanking in-general and God knows where we would be then! And where the results look just plain weird and then we learn why after-words, like Greece and Cyprus admitting that they agreed to back Italy rather than each other for show in 2015 or Malta rigging its vote in 2007 and giving 12 points to the UK and Scooch of all people! One of them voting differently is possible, both and voting for the same country is highly unlikely. Countries who continually take the piss should be kicked out, period. Serious discussions about the potential impact of diasporas on the public vote would also be helpful. They aren't going to get there in one Contest (certainly not one with a point to prove about its own right to host at all), but surely we can avoid unnecessary grievances and cat-calls by making a serious start about it. If this were an election it would be questionable. The Eastern half of the continent can hardly expect the Big 5 to be willing to continue funding the Contest with ever diminishing returns despite 3 putting in what I would say were really good entries (France definitely, Spain and Italy had good songs and singers with poor staging) and UK and Germany improving (though I liked Ann Sophie and 'Black Smoke' and let's not talk about ElectroVelvet....) - if they don't. Never-mind the inevitable end of the Big 5 as a concept sometime in the relatively near future.... If they can make progress in the execution of the voting over say 3 Contests, it's more likely to retain some smaller countries coming, get Slovakia, Bosnia and Turkey back in, keep the UK in it at all (continued participation ought to be considered given geopolitics and the fact the BBC hasn't really tried arguably since Jessica Garlick in 2002 settling for becoming over-reliant on jury-voting for points and cynically taking up a slot somebody else could have had that was better like Iceland particularly) and will go some way to reduce the chances of countries falling out over the eventual winner or claiming they were robbed more than usual (I'm looking at you Russia!). I mean, its hardly good for the Contest (not to mention patronising to the audience) if everybody over-reacts to '1944' and goes very cautious and restricts themselves to a tiny number of diminishing topics rather than risk annoying somebody somewhere is it? There's only so many half-dressed Eastern European ladies/blokes warbling in-front of gimmicky backdrops/LED screens/ethnic dressed crazy dancers/with Holograms/with crazy props/with Giants/all of the above about their boyfriends/girlfriends that I can tolerate.... PS - I normally watch/list to your selections for the polls without actually voting - a lot of times I'm down to two favourites and can't pick a winner. How do I actually vote if I were to? |
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#2703 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Birkenhead
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Associate members can now enter according to ESC Today but the reference group must approve them we could have anyone from Cuba and Chillie to China and Canada
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#2704 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 698
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Quote:
Associate members can now enter according to ESC Today but the reference group must approve them we could have anyone from Cuba and Chillie to China and Canada
It was inevitable since Australia first debuted. In the end, I really don't care whether people say "Australia raises the Contest's global profile and are good at it" (and I thoroughly enjoyed both Dami Im and Guy Sebestian) - they are NOT a European country!. That is the point of the Contest after-all. The EBU are pushing their geographical luck with Israel, the Caucuses (Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan) and gone-but-not-forgotten Turkey. I hate to be a curmudgeon but there are several big concerns about potential global expansion. Firstly, the more non-European countries enter, the higher the risk that there will be a winner who due to time-zones cannot host a la Australia. Is it right that a country should compete without the obligation of hosting unless it proves utterly impossible? San Marino and a couple of small Balkan states might struggle to find a venue that would comply with the rules. There's also the prospect of a 50 country Contest which might prove prohibitively expensive to host (Ukraine itself is not exactly rich) and might discourage poorer, small states from entering or entering a first-class entry in-case they actually win – I cite Bosnia’s 2017 drop-out and the Romania debacle The costs of creating a dramatic, stand-out entry could become prohibitive without resorting to ‘doing a Jamala’ and being very flexible with their interpretation of the rules. This may just push poorer countries who try anyway, such as Albania, Moldova and Nina from Croatia's, as well as countries with a relatively poor track record like Portugal thinking maybe its not worth the trouble now, whilst offering up spots to countries that either have a tenuous connection to Europe – or worse, a negative one. Another risk of globalising the Contest is politics and post-colonialism. ‘1944’ can be read as a post-colonial work in-relation to Ukraine and the Russian Empire/USSR/Russia as successor state, but this also applies to ex-Yugoslav states vis a vis Serbia and Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and Israel vis a vis UK. We do not want to add to this given Europe’s not so great history of taking over other countries in the world and exploiting them or the Chinese torturous history with the Western powers to see exploitation of the ‘Jamala historical truth exemption’ might be called into play a lot. Regardless of your views on the artistic merit of ‘1944’ – somebody is going to exploit the Jamala precedent whilst Eastern Europe votes for it 'cos its got a catchy tune and the singer is really pretty all the while blessed with the plausible deniability of the anonymity of the tele-vote and cry "but Jamala wasn't disqualified in 2016". And that's before you get on-to other potential blow-up arguments about the future of the EU (membership and governance), the migrant crisis (displaced people) and territorial disputes (that peninsula) - all of which can be touched upon by an analysis of, you've guessed it, '1944' but apply in other contexts too. Globalising the competition further, carries the threat of even more deeply politicising an already highly political Contest whilst also further undermining traditional participants who built the Contest over the last 60 years and the Big 5 who pay for this every year is very serious. Almost certainly that will result in far more ugliness and disputed wins complete with fan protest petitions and people trying to use the published Score-cards to statistically 'un-win' the winner as they did this year if the expected favourite doesn't come out on-top. Thank you so much to the Crimea's very own wailing Joan of Arc for that one! Quite a bummer given that I actually like '1944', like Jamala's body of work generally and didn't mind that she beat out a Russian song I found empty and over-staged, as I have said elsewhere.... That and the prospect of say Japan with no connection to Europe beyond trade, beating out regular nearly-rans like Iceland or Israel who usually, but don't always qualify, to their spot in the Final seems unfair. It could be rather glaring given the fact that Iceland was the second smallest country to participate with a limited, but still vibrant talent-pool upon which to draw what are usually very solid entries and a number of these associate countries are very big states. It is possible that I am over-reacting, but I would think caution is needed here. It would long-term be FAR better to have continental (say Europe, Asia-Pacific; Americas; South, West and Central Asia and an African) Contests across the world and then one big Worldvision Song Contest a couple of months later with say the Top 3 from each doing battle for the global crown. Protects the sustainability of the format, probably weeds out most of the rule-bending, political entries, whilst keeping the vision of the great Marcel Bezençon alive and indeed enlarging and enriching it. It would be a hell of a show wouldn't it? But of course that is FAR too sensible! |
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#2705 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Mids
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Quote:
It is possible that I am over-reacting
It's been freely readable in the pdf files on the EBU's own site - http://www.ebu.ch/about/members/admission |
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#2706 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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It is in my nature my dear Lisa to consider the likely worst case scenarios, which you much concede, are very much present. I would like this thing to last another sixty years rather than be destroyed by its own politics, cost or hubris.
Australia (I'm dual-national incidentally) is going to be a test-run here, but I'd still far rather they go down the Continent contests and then World one rather than widen out the participants further. Some degree of common cultural frame of reference that isn't a single repetitive EDM beat helps. And you just know somebody's gonna try to exploit the result this year and send a song in about something heartrending about a subject which ought not to be swept under carpets of convenience but border-line rule-breaking and pull a "Jamala wasn't disqualified - and she won!" and Jon Ola Sand is going to be forced to accept it because of the precedent. I do wonder whether the real reason she got away with it (ignoring artistic factors - it's surely one of the most original 'political' songs going) was because it was Ukraine and the EBU did not wish to give Russia the satisfaction. |
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#2707 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Bristol
Posts: 2,913
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You do contradict yourself, though.
Currently the maximum number of participating countries is 46. Of course, this could be changed any year since the rules are not set in stone. But you argue that associate members joining the contest would put the number of participating countries way up, whereas many countries would stop participating for fear of not being able to compete. In most associate member countries, not enough people watch the contest to make participating worth their money. And that is why there is no immediate concern for such an influx. |
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#2708 |
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,223
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Associate members can now enter according to ESC Today but the reference group must approve them we could have anyone from Cuba and Chillie to China and Canada
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#2709 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
The best entry by a female soloist(1956-1999)
So we have our sexy 16.… 1. Netherlands 1999 https://youtu.be/ohTT9mMx-rs 2. Spain 1995 https://youtu.be/E_yw9-kjm7E 3. United Kingdom 1996 https://youtu.be/pbOmNpd56kw 4. United Kingdom 1998 https://youtu.be/kRWfAmRAL2A 5. Yugoslavia 1990 https://youtu.be/e25_3FuQWHg 6. Slovenia 1995 https://youtu.be/EDCdYocMKNg 7. France 1994 https://youtu.be/Gzs60_xLeyA 8. Denmark 1989 https://youtu.be/lXLBF0EuWc8 9. Netherlands 1998 https://youtu.be/O_TDK5Q4BjA 10. Denmark 1993 https://youtu.be/5shX3YM3Uho 11. Sweden 1963 https://youtu.be/fzZLAhqBYN4 12. Greece 1989 https://youtu.be/f1QIospdDHo 13. Switzerland 1993 https://youtu.be/_VvuvHK8PTA 14. Iceland 1999 https://youtu.be/0c_2T-DZUe0 15. Spain 1989 https://youtu.be/fAkole4pQ4s 16. Portugal 1979 https://youtu.be/PyCsDsFMlJ4 So great to see 4 decades covered and some new titles entered as well as some strong old fav’s . Voting to be done in the Eurovision style of 1-8 then 10 and 12 points to your top 2 songs. I would like to receive all votes by 15.00 GMT on Sunday 23rd October and non participants are more than welcome to vote. Good luck to everybody! Or I've only had one set of votes thus far.....
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#2710 |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 151
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#2711 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: #teamHELEN
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Well that's the end isn't it?
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they are NOT a European country!. That is the point of the Contest after-all. The EBU are pushing their geographical luck with Israel, the Caucuses (Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan) and gone-but-not-forgotten Turkey. Not strictly true - or at least, it hasn't been for a while. Israel, a non-European country debuted in 1973 and since then, we've even had Morocco compete (and Lebanon scheduled to compete before a last minute withdrawal). Prior to this rule change, entry was dictated on being geographically located within the European Broadcasting Area and not being a European country. In fact, many Northern African countries such as Algeria, Libya and Egypt are eligible to enter the contest. Even Syria is eligible. Personally, I think it's a good thing for the contest so long as they don't go crazy with it (I think adding Australia was a good idea. Certainly not the beginning of the end that you insinuate). Also, regarding people 'exploiting' Jamala's win by sending 'something heartwrenching'... people said the same when Conchita won, expecting 2015 to be full of drag queens with beards. Did it happen? No. When Mans won we also didn't really have an influx of countries going over the top with staging (OK, Russia, but one case out of the whole contest is hardly noteworthy or trendsetting). I envisage that it will be the same story in Kyiv. |
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#2712 |
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greater Manchester
Posts: 2,778
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Maybe I'm just terrible and greedy but the thought of anybody just jumping and participating has never bothered me, I like the thought of more countries.
(that and I really want Carly Rae to represent Canada xo) |
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#2713 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 18,107
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Poll from wiwibloggs regarding new countries at ESC
http://wiwibloggs.com/2016/10/19/ebu...vision/153814/ Loads of votes already and its only been up around 30 minutes
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#2714 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway
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Just a reminder to send me your votes for the above contest. Am taking votes from non participants who want to listen. Voting is very tight. Only 11 points separate the top 10 at the moment.
Or I've only had one set of votes thus far..... ![]() |
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#2715 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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I think it should all be down to national interest at the end of the day, the reason why Australia were invited last year was because they have a large Eurovision fanbase and bringing them in on the diamond jubilee was a treat for them. They made such a good impression that they now seem to be a permanent fixture. I have no problem whatsoever with this, in line with what others have pointed out Australia is basically a little bit of Europe on the other side of the world.
What I wouldn't want is inviting countries like China or USA into the contest purely for the sake of it, Eurovision is practically unknown in those countries and have only started broadcasting the contest over the past couple of years compared with the 30-odd year span with SBS so I wouldn't compare it to bringing Australia into the contest. Lastly, I apologise for sounding so utterly cliched but it is indeed Eurovision, it's not like the Olympics. It's ours, it's our opportunity as a continent to get together each year and have our own little party. I think of it as having a house party when your parents are gone for the weekend.
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#2716 |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,593
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Quote:
Lastly, I apologise for sounding so utterly cliched but it is indeed Eurovision, it's not like the Olympics. It's ours, it's our opportunity as a continent to get together each year and have our own little party. I think of it as having a house party when your parents are gone for the weekend.
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#2717 |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Blackpool/Manchester
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Quote:
In fifth place it's Sir Rigas Bebrs himself - although he's suspiciously mute in this clip, almost as if the real Riga Beaver wasn't available that week. The MNTHA impersonation is still superb though - a giant Latvian beaver wearing a blue wig and swaying along to dreampop really is what Eurovision is all about.
5th: 72 points The Riga Beaver (2016) ESC Ross 12 Steven_P, Lurker62 10 weedydiamond 8 Lisa.B 7 Drew Peacock 6 5 avb, EuroFoxi 4 phill363 3 2 Only_You, sbrum1984, big bro geek, thengp12 1 Jaccobabe
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#2718 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: somewhere cold
Posts: 1,258
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Thanks for the votes, wanted to enter the beavers first appearance from 2015 but couldn't find it
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#2719 |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,593
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Quote:
Just a reminder to send me your votes for the above contest. Am taking votes from non participants who want to listen. Voting is very tight. Only 11 points separate the top 10 at the moment.
Or I've only had one set of votes thus far..... ![]() EDIT also following links I've discovered one I forgot about that really wished I'd entered instead of the one I did, never mind. |
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#2720 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 698
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All good points to raise guys! Let me attempt to consider at least some of it....
I understood 46 to be the maximum number as well (20 Semi 1 and 20 Semi 2 participants + Host and Big 5 ponying up the dough). I used 50 as a hypothetical example – after-all, we didn't really envision a 43-country Contest in the early 1990s but here we are. Just because it's 46 now doesn't mean they might not expand it up again in a few years time. If this was just about TV ratings fine – the more viewers, the merrier. Yet having invited Australia (yes, lots of shared history and culture and in the EBU, leaving potential hosting issues aside), to compete, it then becomes difficult to close the door on other countries which also combine some shared history, thriving pop-music markets, reasonable wealth and where there is real potential for fan support such as Japan, South Korea, Brazil, a return for Morocco, nearby Lebanon or Canada (I concur BTW about Carly Rae Jepson). The problem with special cases is that it tends to become a precedent, not a one-off, the unintended consequences, so to speak, of 'building bridges'…. Building the profile of the Contest is great, I am all in favour of marketing the continent's popular culture to the wider world. Smaller countries who might not always get much attention, like say Bulgaria or Austria have the chance to shine for 3 minutes. Poli Genova and Zoë Straub in their own way were worthy Ambassadors for their respective countries, Poli made Bulgaria seem cool and Zoë exploded any image people might have had of Austria. I am delighted that 3 songs that weren't entirely in bland English made Top 6 (French, Bulgarian and Crimean Tartar). The Crimean Tartar language is dying out slowly, it's estimated that a little over 480,000 speak it and the vast majority of them (c. 150,000) live in Uzbekistan mostly survivors or descendants of those deported in 1944 (with c. 2,000 in Romania – DQ-ed this year) – Jamala’s more important in keeping the language alive in an artistic sense than you might suppose. I rather like Spain, Serbia and France's traditional insistence on entries in their own language. I liked Bosnia and Greece doing their thing. How many people outside of the region really knew how diverse Ukraine actually is or understood what is going on there, not least in the arts, post-Maidan? Kiev is absolutely on fire right now in a cultural sense. 2015 contained three acts with disabled participants and saw the first lead performer in a wheelchair (Poland's Monika Kuszyńska). That's just as powerful a signal of inclusion and acceptance as Conchita ever was. Opening the prospect of more non-European entries when there are European countries AWOL and where efforts should be made to help smaller states stay in or come back seems to miss the point. We don't particularly need to enlarge the number of geographical-base of entries (as apposed to viewership) further to stay diverse or progressive or modern. We have Sweden to do modernity, Eastern Europe to do diverse with their ethno-pop and staging and the show itself is plenty progressive. Ireland is very different from FYR Macedonia, which is very different from Finland. Surely, there's more than enough there to sustain a Contest? I can't help but fear that the motives for change might be a bit mercenary rather than artistic and may well result in watering down the central selling-point of the Contest – its Europe-wide nature whilst making it far more expensive to take part (never-mind host) and inviting further disputes and further politicisation of the sort I have previously described – all whilst doing nothing to address obvious problems with the voting and jury systems such as those issues exemplified by the San Marinese 'public' vote problem mentioned above. I would just far rather they concentrate on sorting out the voting, moving heaven and earth to bring countries such as Turkey or Slovakia back whilst trying to prevent Bosnia yo-yoing in and out for all time and addressing potential change across the continent from Kosovo to the prospect of Scotland, Catalonia or Wallonia going it alone and trying to enter in the next five years, as well as addressing the potential consequences or exploitation of '1944' by more the more cynical, along the full impact of technologies and massive stage-shows by a careful review, than thinking about anything else. That’s a pretty busy Agenda isn’t it? The priority must be to have a fair, well managed and sustainable Contest that will be around for decades to come. Once we can be confident that the jury and tele-voting works properly and that the politics problem is addressed in a full and frank way – then by all means, but I fear it is cart before horse somewhat….. Does that make more sense? |
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#2721 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
Did you or anyone else make a playlist?
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#2722 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 18,107
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As only 16 songs I just posted individual links....Also as Eurovision fans we know all the songs anyway.
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#2723 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: #teamHELEN
Posts: 21,535
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If this was just about TV ratings fine – the more viewers, the merrier. Yet having invited Australia (yes, lots of shared history and culture and in the EBU, leaving potential hosting issues aside), to compete, it then becomes difficult to close the door on other countries which also combine some shared history, thriving pop-music markets, reasonable wealth and where there is real potential for fan support such as Japan, South Korea, Brazil, a return for Morocco, nearby Lebanon or Canada (I concur BTW about Carly Rae Jepson). The problem with special cases is that it tends to become a precedent, not a one-off, the unintended consequences, so to speak, of 'building bridges'…. Quote:
The priority must be to have a fair, well managed and sustainable Contest that will be around for decades to come. Once we can be confident that the jury and tele-voting works properly and that the politics problem is addressed in a full and frank way – then by all means, but I fear it is cart before horse somewhat….. Not sure that making the contest sustainable needs to be a huge priority, really. Ratings are on the up. I don't think there is any worry that Eurovision won't be around for decades to come. Just being a tad bit dramatic, I think!
Does that make more sense? |
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#2724 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 18,107
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#2725 |
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Greater Manchester
Posts: 2,778
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I really wanted him to go with Stone In A River, so that news would please me greatly. As the snooze fest songs went his was far better than Giannis'
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