|
||||||||
EgyptAir Flight MS804 from Paris to Cairo 'disappears from radar' |
![]() |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|
#251 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,460
|
Quote:
So a device in the toilet?
|
|
|
|
|
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
|
|
|
#252 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,674
|
Quote:
I don't think Sky have reported this yet and they're usually pretty quick. How long does it take to analyse black box data? (I appreciate it has only been located not retrieved yet)
CBS still reporting it http://www.cbsnews.com/news/egyptair...terranean-sea/ |
|
|
|
|
|
#253 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
|
Quote:
I don't think Sky have reported this yet and they're usually pretty quick. How long does it take to analyse black box data? (I appreciate it has only been located not retrieved yet)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#254 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
|
Quote:
Seems they are being cautious until there are numerous or official announcement.
CBS still reporting it http://www.cbsnews.com/news/egyptair...terranean-sea/ |
|
|
|
|
|
#255 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,423
|
Quote:
Seems they are being cautious until there are numerous or official announcement.
CBS still reporting it http://www.cbsnews.com/news/egyptair...terranean-sea/
|
|
|
|
|
|
#256 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Made it Ma, Top of the World!
Posts: 3,999
|
Quote:
That area of Med is basically the Alps under water. Greek Islands basically mountain peaks. It's not the easiest place to recover from.
![]() To give it some sort of context the Titanic is located at a depth of 3800m(12,500 feet). |
|
|
|
|
|
#257 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,116
|
Regarding the plane movements I read an article online earlier that explained the left and right movements are the same procedure as a pilot would do when attempting to ditch the plane or descend in an emergency.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#258 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,674
|
Quote:
That's not like Sky at all!
![]() They do partner with CBS, so I'm surprised they haven't mentioned, but like you say - not like Sky.With it being the weekend now both BBC News and Sky News wind down. |
|
|
|
|
|
#259 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Darn Sarf
Posts: 28,730
|
Quote:
The crash site looks to be anything from approx 2000m(6,500ft) up to 4000m(13,000ft) deep.
![]() To give it some sort of context the Titanic is located at a depth of 3800m(12,500 feet). The potential terrorism aspect will also lead to a much greater effort being expended to try and find it quickly. |
|
|
|
|
|
#260 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
|
Quote:
But the Med in late spring and summer is a much more friendly environment than the deep Atlantic and is much closer to available land and sea facilities. Not easy then, but an order of magnitude less difficult than where Titanic and also MH 370 went down, not to mention better information on location.
The potential terrorism aspect will also lead to a much greater effort being expended to try and find it quickly. |
|
|
|
|
|
#261 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Made it Ma, Top of the World!
Posts: 3,999
|
The Egyptian authorities are now denying that the black boxes have been located, totally contradicting their earlier statement;…I guess that begs the question of what ‘located’ actually means?
Detecting the underwater sonic ‘pings’ from the black boxes is one thing,…pin-pointing the exact location is another. It’s not an easy task,… especially when there are many underwater obstacles to distort the ‘ping’ sound patterns. They will emit sonic pings for about 30 days. When the black boxes’ exact locations are discovered then it may not be a straightforward operation to bring them to the surface ;...it will certainly need specialist equipment and very skilled personnel to raise them. The black boxes may be not be easily accessible;…they could be lodged deep in a chasm or even still trapped in the wreckage of the plane. The potential difficulties of this recovery operation are myriad, given the depth of water and the possible unforgiving terrain; …of course it may all go swimmingly,…I really hope so. |
|
|
|
|
|
#262 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,592
|
Quote:
The Egyptian authorities are now denying that the black boxes have been located, totally contradicting their earlier statement;…I guess that begs the question of what ‘located’ actually means?
Detecting the underwater sonic ‘pings’ from the black boxes is one thing,…pin-pointing the exact location is another. It’s not an easy task,… especially when there are many underwater obstacles to distort the ‘ping’ sound patterns. They will emit sonic pings for about 30 days. When the black boxes’ exact locations are discovered then it may not be a straightforward operation to bring them to the surface ;...it will certainly need specialist equipment and very skilled personnel to raise them. The black boxes may be not be easily accessible;…they could be lodged deep in a chasm or even still trapped in the wreckage of the plane. The potential difficulties of this recovery operation are myriad, given the depth of water and the possible unforgiving terrain; …of course it may all go swimmingly,…I really hope so. |
|
|
|
|
|
#263 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,422
|
I know that black box is just a name, they aren't really black but, is there a reason they aren't made to float? Would make recovering simpler at sea and make no difference if the crash was on land.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#264 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,738
|
Quote:
I know that black box is just a name, they aren't really black but, is there a reason they aren't made to float? Would make recovering simpler at sea and make no difference if the crash was on land.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#265 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,903
|
"If" this turns out to be an onboard bomb, meaning it was able to get through Paris security without any detection whatsoever, it will surely change European airport security forever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#266 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,423
|
Quote:
"If" this turns out to be an onboard bomb, meaning it was able to get through Paris security without any detection whatsoever, it will surely change European airport security forever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#267 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20,674
|
OT: Whatever the cause I should imagine this latest downing will have a further detrimental effect on tourism and for those who rely on that income.
" ... that the number of tourists in Egypt is declining. By 2013, it had fallen by one-third to under 10 million a year, and has undoubtedly slumped further since then. And last year's revenue from tourism was just under half the 2010 figure, at $6.1bn (£4.2bn). International tour operators can weather that kind of collapse in demand: they simply promote alternative destinations perceived as safer. As Mr Bugsgang says, package holidaymakers have been switching their allegiance to countries such as Spain, which has seen a "huge upsurge" in summer bookings this year, and Bulgaria. But it's terrible news for all the ordinary Egyptians who rely on foreign visitors for their livelihood: hotel workers, tourist guides, taxi drivers and stallholders in the local souks and bazaars. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36340581 |
|
|
|
|
|
#268 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 31,434
|
Re the black box: Why don't they stream the data back live which is perfectly possible technically, why do we have this saga about them having to find the boxes (which I believe are actually orange)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#269 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,738
|
Quote:
Unless it was put on board in one of the airports it had previously been at - I have asked a few times and not had an answer but does anyone know what checks there are inbetween flights?
The idea that it could have been flying around with an explosive device on board for several days unnoticed is frightening. Personally I doubt this is the case as it raises too many whatifs. For example, was it detonated by someone on board who knew it had been placed there previously or on a random timer? Presumably the person who put it on board would have been on the inside and known where the plane was going as aircraft rotations are often planned 2 or 3 days in advance, but then again delays happen and planes can obviously be swapped around for any reason. So there would be no gaurantee of the person who set it off of even being on the same plane, unless a network or bombers booked on to several flights and the one who was "lucky" was the one in Paris. That is quite IS like, but then they have not said a thing about this crash, which is not like them. If this was a previously placed device then it could have been timed to go off much earlier in the flight, the fact it went off so close to landing is a bit strange. Just a few minutes later and the plane would have been below 10,000 feet anyway and unpressurised so maybe wouldn't have suffered so much, or it could have happened on the ground, where there are fueling trucks and pipelines and other planes so could have caused even more damage. It just doesn't seem likely this is what has happened. From the looks of things I would maybe suggest some undisclosed or improperly packed dangerous cargo (or something inside a bag) was aboard which has caught on fire and out of control. The smoke under the avionics panel would suggest coming from the forward holds and filling the cabin suggests there was no decompression as if a bomb went off then there would be no smoke as it'd all be sucked out. The flames could have rendered the controls useless. This could be another case simmilar to ValuJet 592 or Swissair 111 where inflight entertainment cables caught fire and slowly burned away before causing a catastropihc fire and crash. The aircraft certainly seems to have acted similar to Swissair 111 anyway. If this is the case then cargo preparation needs to be looked at at CDG as it would mean a serious lack of awareness. Everyone who comes in to contact with baggage, from a check in agent to a baggage loader to the person who drives the forklift truck has to undertake intensive dangerous goods training set by IATA and ICAO which can even be added to by local governments and the airlines themselves can have even stricter rules too (no one can override or contradict something IATA set), so for this to happen would be totally negligent, but would at least show there was no terrorism involved. The rules are updated regularly and everyone has to resit the whole course at least every 2 years and pass an exam. Varying levels of dangerous goods training applies to different roles, but cargo and baggage handlers get pretty much the highest level. |
|
|
|
|
|
#270 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 508
|
Quote:
"If" this turns out to be an onboard bomb, meaning it was able to get through Paris security without any detection whatsoever, it will surely change European airport security forever.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...curity-7973180 |
|
|
|
|
|
#271 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,738
|
Quote:
Re the black box: Why don't they stream the data back live which is perfectly possible technically, why do we have this saga about them having to find the boxes (which I believe are actually orange)
|
|
|
|
|
|
#272 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,423
|
Quote:
It depends on the airport and airline. Any carrier I've worked with in the UK has had a "secure clean" done which basically means every overhead bin, seat pocket, cupboard, underseat area etc is checked by the cleaning team (who would be searched as they entered and exited the plane) and again by the cabin crew both in and out (if there is a crew change between flights). The cargo and baggage hold areas would get a similar check too. I'm not sure how much of it is industry standard, but I'd be surprised if such checks were not done in Paris and at the home base of Cairo, even more surprised if the plane had been to these places on previous days meaning a full check would surely have been done each night at least or morning.
The idea that it could have been flying around with an explosive device on board for several days unnoticed is frightening. Personally I doubt this is the case as it raises too many whatifs. For example, was it detonated by someone on board who knew it had been placed there previously or on a random timer? Presumably the person who put it on board would have been on the inside and known where the plane was going as aircraft rotations are often planned 2 or 3 days in advance, but then again delays happen and planes can obviously be swapped around for any reason. So there would be no gaurantee of the person who set it off of even being on the same plane, unless a network or bombers booked on to several flights and the one who was "lucky" was the one in Paris. That is quite IS like, but then they have not said a thing about this crash, which is not like them. If this was a previously placed device then it could have been timed to go off much earlier in the flight, the fact it went off so close to landing is a bit strange. Just a few minutes later and the plane would have been below 10,000 feet anyway and unpressurised so maybe wouldn't have suffered so much, or it could have happened on the ground, where there are fueling trucks and pipelines and other planes so could have caused even more damage. It just doesn't seem likely this is what has happened. From the looks of things I would maybe suggest some undisclosed or improperly packed dangerous cargo (or something inside a bag) was aboard which has caught on fire and out of control. The smoke under the avionics panel would suggest coming from the forward holds and filling the cabin suggests there was no decompression as if a bomb went off then there would be no smoke as it'd all be sucked out. The flames could have rendered the controls useless. This could be another case simmilar to ValuJet 592 or Swissair 111 where inflight entertainment cables caught fire and slowly burned away before causing a catastropihc fire and crash. The aircraft certainly seems to have acted similar to Swissair 111 anyway. If this is the case then cargo preparation needs to be looked at at CDG as it would mean a serious lack of awareness. Everyone who comes in to contact with baggage, from a check in agent to a baggage loader to the person who drives the forklift truck has to undertake intensive dangerous goods training set by IATA and ICAO which can even be added to by local governments and the airlines themselves can have even stricter rules too (no one can override or contradict something IATA set), so for this to happen would be totally negligent, but would at least show there was no terrorism involved. The rules are updated regularly and everyone has to resit the whole course at least every 2 years and pass an exam. Varying levels of dangerous goods training applies to different roles, but cargo and baggage handlers get pretty much the highest level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#273 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central London
Posts: 43,693
|
Quote:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...kdown_v1_0.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...s_Reviewed.pdf |
|
|
|
|
#274 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scotland, Europe
Posts: 6,738
|
Quote:
Thanks for your in depth reply.
![]() As there is no further security check between the gate and the hold then these could have been loaded in to the hold and a fire started somehow, maybe by one of the batteries short circuiting by touching another one or a bit of metal. If that then caused a spark big enough to set something else on fire then a sudden intense fire could start in the hold before the pilots had a chance to put it out with the inbuilt system or it simply became too violent for that to deal with. I know it's a long shot, but I really don't think it was a bomb as the fact the ACARS managed to report smoke means that something could have been burning for a while. BBC News saying all the smoke and heat warnings originated from the cockpit or toilet behind the cockpit. Perhaps someone smoking in the toilet. Now BBC news going on about the batteries. I want to state I made this post before the News at 10 went on about lithium batteries! |
|
|
|
|
|
#275 |
|
Forum Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 9,454
|
Quote:
"If" this turns out to be an onboard bomb, meaning it was able to get through Paris security without any detection whatsoever, it will surely change European airport security forever.
|
|
|
|
![]() |
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:56.





