Sorry, but I think you're missing the point I don't think it was even a case of Simon Bates being happy to kiss another man. It was done as a joke. If it had any intent from Simon Bates' side, it was probably to cause surprise/laughter. It was not, consciously or unconsciously, to show he was relaxed about kissing another man.

Not everything in life involving two men has to have subliminal LGBT messages ...

I'm not talking about everything in life, I'm just talking about this single example. The whole point is that in this single example Simon Bates was happy to kiss another man, joke or not. How often did that happen on prime time TV at the time?

I'm not talking about subliminal LGBT messages.

I'm not talking about LGBT people seeing something that represents their sexuality.

I'm talking about straight people being seen to be actively LGBT friendly.

I'm talking about straight people being seen to be open and accepting towards LGBT people on TV. That's a positive message to all people, but nonetheless a particularly significant one for those LGBT people watching at home.

And that's my point. I don't think it had anything to do with that. I don't think seeking to make such a statement was even on most people's radars at the time, except in the perhaps too inward looking LGBT world.

Associates update : Still brilliant

Hiya Jonny Boy, I think it has a brilliance half life of about a million years. Meanwhile the Goombay Dance Band's brilliance half life was about 3 minutes.

Late night TOTP showing from 3.15am to 3.55am tonight, or rather this morning. Even if you'd just plopped down a touch "happy" after a night out on the sauce you'd have fully sobered up before it's on, it's that late, or early. Why has the late night weekend TOTP suddenly been shunted back 3 hours from the regular midnight to 1am it has been showing for such a long time?

I've been trying out a few opening lyrics to Adrian Gurvitz, Classic. Not sure they were good enough to post though.

Then we simply view the same moment differently. I'm quite happy to stand by my point and you appear to have no desire to move on from yours. I think it was a gay friendly moment that deserves a bit of acknowledgement. You don't agree.

*shrugs*

It was just two fellas doing a kiss. Probably a bit showbiz. It wasn't a problem then, it's definitely not a problem now, or at least it shouldn't be.

Yes, i didn't see any sexual connotations in the kiss at all, just a bit of friendly banter. It was a spontaneous and warm gesture, and nothing more.

I am not quite sure i would ever catagorise, or put Roy Castle and Kenny Everett together, as having a similar universal appeal, or shared public affection, mind. Roy seemed a pretty harmless guy, and a great all round entertainer, who seemed pretty non threatening, from which ever angle one chose to view him, while Kenny was a great deal more anarchic, and cutting in much of the things he did, who could divide opinion, and court controversy, with his outrageous remarks, and later, extreme characters he played. For some, he was never in the best possible taste. However, that had nothing to do with his sexual orientation, as many were in the dark in that regard. Kenny though, undoubtedly was hugely talented and one of a kind, and the different voices, and the imaginative use of jingles, and various characters within his radio show was groundbreaking. I often wonder if Steve Wright was influenced by him, with his cast of radio characters? I think Steve pales by the side of Kenny's seeming anti authoritarian stance, and eccentricity, mind. However, beneath his bold front, Kenny was suffering from a great deal of inner turmoil and pain, which had a huge effect on his private life. In today's society, i really don't think he would have felt the need to suffer. The level of acceptance, thankfully, is far greater.

Things were getting very bland by the early nineties with the likes of Bryan Adams and Wet Wet Wet, and their variations on the power ballad format. I think the more subtle original version of "Love Is All Around" by The Troggs, from the sixties, is far better.

I don't watch HD on Freeview, unfortunately as i use an August HD box, which is beset by problems, too, unfortunately.

Seems every time I switch my Freeview on, there's always a message asking to retune.

(I did by the way! )

A great performance by the associates and a cracking tune but I was wondering like a few as to why Billy kept looking up at the monitor? Did he keep doing this on his first appearance a couple of weeks earlier as it doesn't seem to be on YouTube ?

It's probably my terrible memory, or maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but even though I'd already seen the edition the kiss between Kenny and Simon didn't really register with me unlike Kenny's mis-pronounciation for comic effect of Julio Igleasias's name. I certainly don't think its something that needs analyzing.

Kenny's death always sticks in my memory. I was away in Ibiza at the time and I remember reading it in the paper and the DJ where we staying mentioning it.

It wouldn't be so annoying the ridiculous times the put on the full edition and repeat if they actually stuck to the proper time. I know if I didn't manually record it on my PVR I'd have the first minute or so of the show missing.

That's the very point. It wasn't sexual. It was friendly. In this instance, LGBT friendly which wasn't commonly seen on TV at the time. It's an example of the changing attitudes towards gay people in the 80s, which is a good thing.


Is it really such a problem? It's 5 seconds of TV I'm talking about having a positive context yet people seem to be after doing it down and missing the entire point. There seems to be some kind of hang up that "gay" automatically means sexual. There's a difference between being gay and being gay friendly. My initial post was about the latter but some have latched on to the idea I'm talking about the former so of course that throws things into confusion. It's like if there are two circles, one blue, one red. I'm talking about the red circle but because some people are looking firmly at the blue circle they're not getting the context of what I'm saying.

Yes, two guys kissing on TV isn't a big deal...now. In fact, it's something we take for granted. But at the time it wasn't so common. It was even less common to see straight people show a positive and open attitude towards gay people on TV. Usually a straight person would be seen to be suspicious or mocking towards anything associated with being or appearing to be gay. Here Simon Bates has no such qualms and in a spontaneous moment kissing a guy on the lips. Nothing sexual in it, just fun and friendly. That in itself is LGBT friendly as it shows openness and acceptance. This was the 80s opening up to the LGBT community more and more and in turn having its own impact on pop culture as well. The kiss is an example of the shift taking place at the time. It's as important to recognise how the attitude of straight people towards the LGBT community was seen on TV as the representation of being gay itself.

Successfully recorded this week's show at the second time of asking.

Pluto's "Your Honour" isn't what I thought it was - I was expecting a reggae toasting type of track. Perhaps I'm thinking of "Cockney Translation", which is a couple of years away (and by Smiley Culture)?

Adrian's Gurvitz's backing singer/guitarist surely has one of the most magnificent hairstyles ever to grace the stages of TOTP? A thing of gravity and fashion-defying wonder.

I wonder if Tight Fit and Haircut 100 filmed their videos on the same set and shared the costs? (if they didn't, they should have!) Neither video stands up too well to the scrutiny of today's attitudes (the H100 video was only seen on a DLT show).

Simon Bates was just all over the place, and yet somehow came out of it in one piece.

Taken in isolation this was a great episode - only the utterly baffling appearance of Julio dragged it down - although taken in context of recent episodes there were a few songs that are suffering from overexposure for me.

It's because of some BBC HD channels being moved elsewhere due to the Olympics to accommodate the Red Button coverage.

I agree with TUC. You're viewing something from over 30 years ago through the lense of 2016 sensibilities. He kissed Kenny Everett to get a laugh, not as an act of solidarity with gay people. TV back then was full of this kind of thing...the "hilarity" of one man kissing another. Everett pulled the same stunt on his own TV shows several times to get a laugh. Your interpretation is like seeing a stag party in comedy drag and thinking it shows how trans friendly they must be!

Just out of interest, were you around in the 80s because I find this statement a little baffling:

"This was the 80s opening up to the LGBT community more and more and in turn having its own impact on pop culture as well. The kiss is an example of the shift taking place at the time. "

I was 18 in 1982 and there was a shift starting but in the opposite direction to the one you think was happening. The 80s were the very opposite of 'opening up to the LGBT community'. It was the era of AIDS hysteria, 'family values' from the Conservatives, tabloid gay bashing,, Section 28 and hardening attitudes that peaked in 1988...check out the annual surveys of attitudes to gay people. As you see they got worse and worse as the 80s went on:
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-r...sexuality.aspx

I lived through the 80s and they were a very dark, hostile decade for the gay community despite a growing number of 'out' pop stars.

Simon Bates was pretty much playing up to Kenny Everett's perceived wacky sense of humour. Kenny came on at the end presenting one of his popular comedy personas, and Simon was pretty much enhancing the moment, to get maximum laughs. Simon could have played it straight, i suppose, but in a way he was doing Kenny a favour in kissing him, by making the moment even more memorable. Ultimately, Kenny's appearance was to keep people watching the BBC through the evening, and to encourage the Top Of The Pops audience to stay with them. I have noticed Top Of The Pops making a habit more recently in these 1982 shows of advertising other shows, and sometimes non musical, too. The BBC certainly had a handle on what type of shows, appeal to which type of viewers.

You're the only one who has initially decided to make it an issue on this discussion. No one else has done so.

As someone who knew both Ken and Simon well during this period let me just add some more. The ability to make a live show appear truly spontaneous is the mark of a great television producer. Mike Hurll was one such man at the Beeb. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING was ever left to pure chance during a live BBC show. Certainly not something more compact and time reliant as Top Of The Pops in the weekday primetime evening if it went out live. Unlike today there was absolutely no few seconds time delay. Live meant live, not five or ten seconds ago or even ten minutes ago. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING was scripted and rehearsed beforehand. Yes, even Simon Bates giving Kenny Everett an appreciative friendly kiss. The whole thing looks so easy to the casual viewer. It's not, and that is the trick, making something appear easy and off the cuff. Simon was very good in appearing at ease I always thought. He does not deserve the lower reputation some have attached down the years.

Notice how Kenny at one point says to Simon "that's not in the script". The friendly peck was in the script too. I know it was. I own copies of original BBC scripts including the Pops. Not for a moment would that have happened in a live show under Mike as producer without it being agreed and even written into the running order. Knowing Kenny he probably asked Simon if he'd do it at the end and Mike agreed at the pre-show run through. Simon, and Kenny were the consummate professionals. They shared some similar characteristics in parts of their private and professional life too. Some may remember an edition of the Pops Kenny did in the latter part of 1973 which looked anarchic in a style unusual in the early 1970's. It was all tightly scripted even so. You even have to rehearse and direct apparent anarchy on the box. You may be able to ad lib in the theatre but start doing it on live telly with timings so important then the clock goes out the window and chaos of some kind would genuinely ensue.

The issue has been massively overplayed here in a way that it wasn't even thirty plus years ago in 1982. There's too much over analysis nowadays and agenda setting with labels having to be hung onto all sorts of people, situations and behaviour in life.

Feel free to plant this friendly kiss wherever you like, man or woman - X.

You're right Rich, there haven't been that many but some absolute belters are coming. Definitely a case of quality over quantity during the 82 shows.

Yes, there was a dark side and I'm not saying the bad stuff directed at the LGBT community didn't happen. Of course it did, it's well documented. I was saying that it was more usual for gay people to be treated derisively on TV, which had a wider impact on many people's attitudes in general. So when there's something that shows it wasn't all doom and gloom at the time, why play it down rather than embrace it? I'm pointing to an instance of a gay friendly moment on prime time TV at a time that kind of thing was pretty uncommon. I view it as being LGBT friendly. That's my own view. It's my interpretation of that moment and I've explained my thinking on that. You have a different view. Fine. I personally don't see why it can't be seen as being gay friendly, but if you don't see that way then we'll just have to agree to differ.

I was counting the 'out' pop stars as being part of the LGBT community and they were part of the shifting attitudes that eventually came into fruition on the other side. I'm sorry you had to experience the dark and hostile aspect of the decade and I'm not dismissing it at all. I'm just talking about an apparently forgotten gay friendly moment on Top Of The Pops. Is that really so bad?

I was responding to a post that already mentioned the kiss and inferred it would've sent Mary Whitehouse into hysterics. So actually, I did not initiate it. I just expressed my view that I thought it was LGBT friendly. It was others that took issue with that view.



It was TUC who first said it was spontaneous, which was subsequently picked up by others and later myself in the exchange. I was actually unsure as to whether it was scripted or not but I absolutely saw it as an appreciative friendly kiss. I also see as a gay friendly moment on TV. It's others who apparently have an issue with that so there's no need to single me out.

Talking of LGBT, it's only a few months before Annie Lennox enters the pop scene with Love Is A Stranger and Sweet Dreams. Her ambiguous image didn't seem to do her any harm at all in terms of popularity.

Here it is on YouTube. He doesn't look at the monitors on this performance, although he did a bit on one of the Club Country performances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE4hZeZ28Ug

"No need to single you out"? You're the only one who has been making an issue of a non-issue and, for whatever reason, trying to add a significance that just isn't there.

Possibly because a female artist appearing androgynous wasn't exactly a new thing in 1982/1983 - Grace Jones had already blazed that particular trail ...