Guardian also say the same and infer that Liverpool will try and get that kick off time moved.

Jurgen Klopp bewildered by Liverpool's festive fixture schedule

Also further coverage of the TV picks - this time regarding a "raw deal" for Southampton:

Southampton to play three games in six days

Sorry if both or either already posted, I'm not up to date with this thread yet!

World Darts:

Sun 1 Jan (7pm) - Semis
Mon 2 Jan (8pm) - Final

So no PL clash with Darts semis or final - and in both cases live PL game provides lead-in.

Particularly good lead-in for the Final on Mon 2 Jan - West Ham v Man Utd at 5.15pm.

Less important but on Tue 27 Dec they've pushed the darts back to 8pm (normally 7pm) to fit with Liverpool v Stoke at 5.15pm.

No darts on Mon 26 Dec.

Wasn't it the case last year that Arsenal v Bournemouth on 28th December (Bank Holiday) was moved to a 5.15KO because Southampton v Arsenal on Boxing Day was an evening kick off?

That surely sets a precedent that will allow Liverpool to move from 3pm on 2nd January.

No Sky PL game on Sat 31 Dec at 12.30pm means no PL clash with Rangers v Celtic.

They go for a (low key) FNF instead which does clash with the darts but that's obviously preferable to clashing with the Old Firm.

Middlesbrough and Leicester both play within less than 48 hours - Sat 31 Dec at 3pm then Mon 2 Jan at 12.30pm - so Liverpool may be forced to do the same.

......

Here's an updated spreadsheet and here are my thoughts on the picks in detail.

Week 14

Sat 12:30 - Man City v Chelsea (A2)
Sat 17:30 - West Ham v Arsenal (F4)

Sun 13:30 - Bournemouth v Liverpool (C5)
Sun 16:00 - Everton v Man Utd (D1)

Mon 20:00 - Middlesbrough v Hull (E3)

Sky take first and second pick to get Everton v Man Utd and Man City v Chelsea. As Sky are (I think) looking to get weekend Package G games for Chelsea and Man Utd they had to use a third pick in Package E to avoid BT passing third pick to Package G. BT get West Ham v Arsenal as a fourth pick in Package F.

Week 15

Sat 12:30 - Watford v Everton (A5)
Sat 17:30 - Leicester v Man City (B3)

Sun 12:00 - Chelsea v West Brom (B5)
Sun 14:15 - Man Utd v Tottenham (C2)
Sun 16:30 - Liverpool v West Ham (D1)

The Liverpool and Man Utd games are first and second picks and I think Leicester v Man City is a third pick in Package B. I reckon Sky passed fourth pick to BT but they didn't want to use it on Chelsea v West Brom as BT have already picked Chelsea in Package F (Everton at home in Week 11) and have two big midweek games to come. Watford v Everton fills the former's min quota in Package A. I guess Chelsea v West Brom is a fifth pick in Package B. I'm surprised BT bothered with that game as it doesn't fill a quota for a small team and I'm surprised the PL allowed them to do it as it isn't ideal for Sky's Super Sunday.

Week 16

Tue 19:45 - Everton v Arsenal (F1)
Wed 20:00 - Crystal Palace v Man Utd (F2)

Crystal Palace v Man Utd suggests that Hull v Man Utd in Week 3 is from Package B.

Week 17

Sat 12:30 - Crystal Palace v Chelsea (A2)
Sat 17:30 - West Brom v Man Utd (B5)

Sun 13:30 - Bournemouth v Southampton (C4)
Sun 16:00 - Man City v Arsenal (D1)

Mon 20:00 - Everton v Liverpool (E3)

Sky take picks one to four with the surprise being that the Merseyside Derby is on the Monday night. With Hull v Everton on the Friday of Week 19, this means Sky have maxed out Everton in Package E. The Merseyside Derby takes Liverpool to three in Package E, while neither Man City nor Arsenal have featured in that Package.

Week 18

Dec 26 12:30 - Watford v Crystal Palace (G1)
Dec 26 17:15 - Hull v Man City (G2)

Dec 27 17:15 - Liverpool v Stoke (G3)

Dec 28 19:45 - Southampton v Tottenham (G4)

Watford v Crystal Palace and Liverpool v Stoke are left field choices. I'm fairly sure Man Utd have not featured in a weekend Package G game so Man Utd v Sunderland was a possibility. I think on balance Sky opted to keep back 10 Man Utd games for the last 14 weekends of the season, but I do wonder if they took the view that David Moyes was far from certain to still be in a job come Boxing Day.

Week 19

Fri 20:00 - Hull v Everton (E3)

Sat 17:30 - Liverpool v Man City (B1)

Sun 13:30 - Watford v Tottenham (C2)
Sun 16:00 - Arsenal v Crystal Palace (D4)

Given the starts made by Liverpool and Man City, I think we can assume that Sky always planned to pass Week 19. I have to say I'm surprised at this. If I was BT I'd advertise this as the only game that matters this Christmas. But looking at the Sunday - quota fillers for Watford (C) and Crystal Palace (D), this shows that Sky can't readily change their plans as it messes up their quota filling schedule.

Week 20

Jan 2 12:30 - Middlesbrough v Leicester (G1)
Jan 2 17:15 - West Ham v Man Utd (G2)

Jan 3 19:45 - Bournemouth v Arsenal (G3)

Jan 4 20:00 - Tottenham v Chelsea (G4)

We expected Leicester v Everton to be picked from the Boxing Day fixtures. But I think Sky are maxed out of Everton in Package G so Sky opted for Middlesbrough v Leicester from the Jan 2 fixtures. I am surprised the Sky opted for Liverpool v Stoke in Week 18 and Bournemouth v Arsenal in Week 20. If it were up to me I would have gone Arsenal v West Brom and Sunderland v Liverpool. Bournemouth have been picked seven times by Sky, while Sunderland have been picked just four times.

Week 21

Sat 12:30 - Tottenham v West Brom (A2)
Sat 17:30 - Leicester v Chelsea (B3)

Sun 13:30 - Everton v Man City (G3)
Sun 16:00 - Man Utd v Liverpool (D1)

Unusually Man Utd v Liverpool is Sunday 16:00. I guess they allowed this fixture to be played Saturday 17:30 last season so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise. It'd be interesting to know if the reverse fixture could take place in either of those slots. Sky not picking Leicester v Everton doesn't prove anything for definite but it does make me think Everton v Man City is a Package G game.

Week 22

Sat 12:30 - Liverpool v Swansea (F2)
Sat 17:30 - Man City v Spurs (B1)

Sun 13:30 - Arsenal v Burnley (C5)
Sun 16:00 - Chelsea v Hull (D4)

Mon 20:00 - Southampton v Leicester (E3)

As with Week 19, this has Sky quota filler weekend written all over it: Burnley in C, Hull in D and Leicester in E. I reckon Sky passed second pick in Package F safe in the knowledge that BT would probably take the Liverpool game to get their fill of the Reds in Package F.

I find it hard to believe that Sky would pass first and second pick if the first picks didn't have to be used before the second picks had been declared. Something, however, doesn't feel right. That Chelsea v West Brom game is just odd. I suppose if Sky didn't pass Week 3 then they weren't playing the usual Tottenham strategy so perhaps they weren't bothered which package BT used for the NLD. But then that would let BT off with Arsenal.

For what it's worth, here are seven weekend Package F games that I think BT have picked:

5 Watford v Man Utd (F4)
10 Crystal Palace v Liverpool (F2)
11 Chelsea v Everton (F2)
12 Tottenham v West Ham (F4)
13 Burnley v Man City (F2)
14 West Ham v Arsenal (F4)
22 Liverpool v Swansea (F2)

Interesting that across Sky's eight BH games there are 15 different teams shown, with only Tottenham appearing in both rounds. That's not exactly helping us much with deducing the Package G games!


I think we had this discussion a while back, but I've long since assumed that the same package could be used more than once for a round. In the last cycle there were many cases when i concluded a weekend had two games from package B or package E.



I'm with loyalsince on this one - R15 is by no means certain. Personally i think BT would be mad to turn down Man Utd-Tottenham given that it is the only Man Utd big six fixture they can realistically hope to get via the weekend rounds. But it's certainly the kind of game Sky wouldn't feel too bad about giving up (as we've seen in the past, even when ESPN were on the go) so some caution is definitely necessary with this round.


I think where yourself and TLG86 have differences is regarding Tottenham-Liverpool in R3. We had so much debate at the time, and we're still not certain! I was edging towards it being a sky first pick initially so will stick to my guns!

The Sky total showings so far (someone might want to double check this):

Liverpool - 13
Chelsea, Man Utd - 11
Arsenal, Tottenham - 10
Everton, Man City, Southampton - 9
Bournemouth, Watford, West Ham - 7
Leicester, Middlesbrough - 6
Crystal Palace, Hull, Stoke - 5
Burnley, Sunderland, Swansea, West Brom - 4

I won't even attempt to give BT total showings (given that it matters with respect to the Packages B and F breakdown and that's very foggy!) but Bournemouth, Southampton and Swansea haven't been shown at all in weekend rounds so certainly still have a min quota to satisfy in Package B. Others may join them if they've only been covered in Package F.

And that's probably not a coincidence - they would aim to show as many teams as possible at Christmas which might explain the decision to pass first pick in Week 19.


But that was when those packages had multiple kick off times. This looks like it could be that BT have been allowed to use the Sunday 12:00 slot for a second Package B game which seems generous to me.


I expected Sky to pass control of first pick to BT. The only reason I can conceive for why BT would pass this round is if they didn't like the look of the options in Week 17. I had speculated that BT might get Spurs v Burnley in Package F that week, but it actually works out better for them that they got West Brom v Man Utd as a fifth pick in Package B (a game which Sky were never going to pick). Add in Palace v Man Utd in between and that's three Man Utd games in a week.

Of course, BT could have gone Middlesbrough v Liverpool in the midweek round and got Stoke v Man Utd in Week 22 instead of Liverpool v Swansea. However, they wouldn't know when deciding on first pick in Week 15 that they'd be getting second pick in Week 22.

As for what Sky and BT have left, I make it that Sky have shown Liverpool 11 times. I have BT on four for Chelsea and Man City. This makes the pick of Chelsea v West Brom all the more surprising. Will Sky pass Chelsea v Arsenal in Week 24? And if so, will BT take it? Chelsea have only two weekend big six games in the second half of the season (the other being Man Utd away in Week 33), so perhaps BT are calculating that Sky will want both of those games.

Igloo, I have Liverpool on 11. Not checked the rest. As previously discussed a million times it appears that sky think it's important to get a good spread of teams, and due to hold back and packs there will be some inefficiency but I think sky could pick the bigger teams more.

Take west ham v arsenal, attractive fixture. I'm sure with 11/14 arsenal left that could have been shown.

Or take Southampton v Liverpool. Not to be shown but could have been

BT games in isolation look good for Dec and Jan. I appreciate sky 21 quota overall does limit, but the 10 extra games could have been picked from current top six wastage.

(Not that as a supporter of a lower prem team am I complaining)

Sat lunch games are bt total is 71 games not 73 on sky

They could have taken both Man City v Chelsea and West Ham v Arsenal but it would have required use of the Friday night slot. I reckon Sky are saving those for later in the season - they have six left. They have 15 Package E games left so I expect we'll get at least one weekend with a Friday and a Monday game. Incidentally, I correctly predicted four of the five games in Week 14 - the one I called wrong was Bournemouth v Liverpool - I thought Sky would go for Spurs v Swansea to fill the latter's min quota in Package C.

Sky picks
Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd - 11
Arsenal, Everton, Man City, Southampton, Tottenham - 9
Bournemouth, Watford, West Ham - 7
Leicester, Middlesbrough - 6
Burnley, Crystal Palace, Hull, Stoke - 5
Sunderland, West Brom - 4
Swansea - 3

BT have 12 plus 2 games to picknow
Sky have 55 remaining

BT picks
Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City - 6
Arsenal, Man Utd - 5
Leicester, Tottenham, West Ham - 4
Crystal Palace, Everton, West Brom- 3
Burnley, Hull, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea, Watford- 1

BT must be hoping to show the South Coast Derby on April 1
Kills 2 birds with one stone

Really stupid from BT picking Chelsea V West Brom.

Sky can pass 4th Feb knowing that Arsenal V Chelsea would have to clash with Six Nations.

If BT take it, Sky can pass Man Utd V Chelsea week, basically gives Sky an extra big game

I think Friday night football wasn't used because of the EFL Cup. Arsenal play Bournemouth Sunday 27 Nov so would normally play EFL Cup Wednesday if they make quarterfinals. Chelsea and Man City both play Sat 26 Nov but theoretically could play someone in EFL Cup that played Sunday.

Apologies, I did those tallies in a rush and wasn't certain of their accuracy - I shouldn't have posted them. Judio's numbers are correct.

There's that Mark Twain quote at the start of the Big Short: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure, but just ain't so."

I'll be honest, I'm guilty of falling into this trap, but I'd like to think I change my mind when the facts change. When Igloo_Man suggested that the NLD could be the second pick in Package F, I thought that couldn't be right. We'd worked it all out that Sky would, as usual, pass first pick in the weeks with big Spurs games so why would Sky mess that up by letting BT get a big Spurs game as a second pick in Package F? I also didn't think that the picks were all declared before any were made so I thought BT.

But that Chelsea v West Brom game just looks odd. Why would BT pick that? Leicester v Man City looks a slam dunk third pick from Package B, why would you feel the need to have another Package B game which doesn't fill any quotas? Burnley v Bournemouth is Week 15, so if BT had picked that it would have made some sense as a quota filler.

The only thing I can think of is that Chelsea v West Brom is a fourth pick in Package F. I reckon BT (and Sky) can opt not to use a pick and defer to another weekend (albeit after all of that weekend's actual picks are made). But BT were happy to use it in Week 15 to get Chelsea v West Brom. But we know that BT have picked Liverpool v Chelsea in the January midweek, so they can't possibly have picked another Chelsea game in Package F? Because, if they have, then that would rule out Chelsea v Man City in Week 31. That can't be possible, can it?

It looks to me as though Sky haven't employed the usual strategy of give up Tottenham big games. Perhaps they thought Spurs v Liverpool was a game they needed. But whatever, it doesn't look like they are squeezing BT on Spurs. So with that in mind, perhaps Sky wouldn't be too fussed if the NLD was in Package F. But if you're not squeezing on Spurs, wouldn't you pick the NLD over Man Utd v Spurs? And once BT picked Leicester v Arsenal, you would think that Sky would want to squeeze on Arsenal.

I did speculate before the season that Sky might have a harder time plotting their way through the season in terms of quota filling. You'd think if the picks are declared before any are made then it shouldn't be too difficult to avoid giving up first and second pick in the same weekend. But perhaps Sky were happy to give up both in Week 11 as second picks were more important in other weekends and they had pinpointed that week to fill the West Brom min quota in Package D.

are the radio broadcasts linked to tv deals at all? , 5live and talksport in opposite slots today for the early and late games

The Chelsea game was due to be tomorrow, but you'd think that would mean two TalkSport games today and two 5live tomorrow.

thanks, i see why they had this game then but yes the late ones makes no sense

Trying to get to the bottom of the Package F and Package G games. I reckon the Package F games picked so far have to come from the following:

R3 - Hull v Man Utd (F4)
R4 - Liverpool v Leicester (F4)
R5 - Everton v Middlesbrough or Watford v Man Utd (F2) [definitely one of them]
R9 - Liverpool v West Brom (F4)
R10 - Crystal Palace v Liverpool (F2 or F4)
R12 - Tottenham v West Ham (F4)
R13 - Burnley v Man City (F2 or F4)
R14 - West Ham v Arsenal (F4)
R15 - Leicester v Man City (F4)
R17 - West Brom v Man Utd (F2 or F4)
R21 - Leicester v Chelsea (F4)
R22 - Liverpool v Swansea (F2)

It's too hard to say which of these has been selected. Assuming that Chelsea-Man City and Man Utd-Everton are picked from the last midweek round, that leaves BT maxed on Chelsea, and with one game left for Everton and Man City in Package F. Otherwise it's a free for all.

For Package G, I've identified the following candidates:

R3 - West Brom v Middlesbrough
R6 - West Ham v Southampton or Man Utd v Leicester*
R7 - Burnley v Arsenal
R8 - Chelsea v Leicester
R9 - Man City v Southampton
R10 - Southampton v Chelsea
R11 - Liverpool v Watford or Leicester v West Brom
R13 - Arsenal v Bournemouth
R14 - Bournemouth v Liverpool
R15 - Man Utd v Tottenham**
R19 - Arsenal v Crystal Palace
R21 - Everton v Man City

(*) Man Utd-Leicester couldn't be played on the Sun due to possibility of Leicester in CL on the following Tue. Therefore it's not unreasonable that Man Utd-Leicester may have swapped slots with West Ham-Southampton, and whichever game was the 'true' Sun 16:00 game could be in Package G. Also worth noting that West Ham and Southampton have had plenty of Sun 16:00 games anyway so definitely could be a behind the scenes swap here.

(**) At a glance Man Utd-Tottenham has to be either C4 or G3 given the Sun 14:15 slot. But given that there's a PL round the following midweek, don't rule out this being a Package E game that was allowed to be shifted from the usual timeslot.

For Package G, Sky are maxed on Spurs from BH rounds, and have most other clubs on one showing out of a possible two. Worth noting that Arsenal and Southampton only have one weekend showing available and each have three entries on this list, so only one of them is in Package G in each case.

I'm interested to hear any arguments for why any games could be added or removed from either of these lists.

Thanks Igloo_Man, here are my thoughts on which ones can be eliminated:

Package F

R4 - Liverpool v Leicester - I can't see why Sky would take third pick to get Sunderland v Everton, so this looks like a third pick in B.
R5 - Everton v Middlesbrough - I assume that all Package F games will feature a big 6 team. This looks like it fills the Middlesbrough quota.

Package G

R3 - West Brom v Middlesbrough - Fills the Middlesbrough quota in Package C.
R8 - Chelsea v Leicester - Fills the Leicester quota in Package C.
R11 - Leicester v West Brom - Fills the West Brom quota in Package D
R15 - Man Utd v Tottenham - Spurs maxed out in Package G at Christmas
R19 - Arsenal v Crystal Palace - Fills the Palace min quota in Package D

However....

R6 - West Ham v Southampton or Man Utd v Leicester - Good spot. Neither West Ham nor Southampton have been shown in Package A so I reckon this could be a swap. And Man Utd v Leicester looks a likely Package G candidate.

What's your view on Watford v Stoke in Week 13? These are the only two teams yet to be shown in the Sunday 16:00 slot. I like pjex's suggestion that Sky can still use a fourth pick in Package D in the 12:00 slot if they've already used a third pick in Package G (16:30) and want to use a pick from Package C (14:15). Rhat would mean Southampton v Everton is a Package G game, which in turn rules out the other Southampton games.

I find it odd that Sky overlooked Leicester v Everton on Boxing Day. I reckon they did so because they are maxed out of Everton games in Package G. As well as the Southampton game, I reckon the Man City game in Week 21 is a Package G game. So with all that in mind, here are what I think are the F and G games:

Pacakge F

5. Watford v Man Utd (F4)
10. Crystal Palace v Liverpool (F2)
11. Arsenal v Tottenham (F2)
12. Tottenham v West Ham (F4)
13. Burnley v Man City (F2)
14. West Ham v Arsenal (F4)
15. Chelsea v West Brom (F4)
22. Liverpool v Swansea (F2)

Package G

6. Man Utd v Leicester (G3)
7. Burnley v Arsenal (G3)
11. Liverpool v Watford (G3)
13. Southampton v Everton (G3)
21. Everton v Man City (G3)