The fact he's a champion means nothing if his first feud becomes a Triple H ego trip.
World Wrestling Entertainment Discussion 42 (Spoilers)
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Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Even though the former will happen, I think KO is still a strong enough performer to come out of it with popularity in tact.
And at the same time, he is currently World Champion so I wouldn't be bringing out the violins.
Related to the above live footage coming in Creative as they write tonight's opening segment.”
“Even though the former will happen, I think KO is still a strong enough performer to come out of it with popularity in tact.
And at the same time, he is currently World Champion so I wouldn't be bringing out the violins.
Related to the above live footage coming in Creative as they write tonight's opening segment.”
Universal Champion as the World is small for a McMahon ego.
Originally Posted by James Frederick:
“Problem is fans love him to much and know that he genuinely does deserve it.
Yes as a heel he should not get that reaction but he's so damn great fans can't help themselves.”
“Problem is fans love him to much and know that he genuinely does deserve it.
Yes as a heel he should not get that reaction but he's so damn great fans can't help themselves.”
This is why modern wrestling is broken.
Speaking of Clash of Champions, anybody else think these now 2 monthly events should be 2 hours each?
They could be quality at that time and featuring only 5 matches.
They could be quality at that time and featuring only 5 matches.
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Even though the former will happen, I think KO is still a strong enough performer to come out of it with popularity in tact.
And at the same time, he is currently World Champion so I wouldn't be bringing out the violins.
Related to the above live footage coming in Creative as they write tonight's opening segment.”
“Even though the former will happen, I think KO is still a strong enough performer to come out of it with popularity in tact.
And at the same time, he is currently World Champion so I wouldn't be bringing out the violins.
Related to the above live footage coming in Creative as they write tonight's opening segment.”
I really hope KO does look strong by the end of the night (and for the foreseeable future).
I'd really like to see HHH and KO in the ring to start off Raw but, rather than HHH dominating, KO is the one who does all the talking and brags about how good he is. HHH stands in the back just smiling.
Haha, love that clip.
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“The fact he's a champion means nothing if his first feud becomes a Triple H ego trip.”
“The fact he's a champion means nothing if his first feud becomes a Triple H ego trip.”
Have HHH come out and give his usual BS about how he picked a Champion and now Owens is the face of The Authority then have Owens come out and say "Thanks but no thanks" and how he never asked or wanted HHH out there and he would have won anyway.
Still keep him heel by insulting the fans saying he never wanted or asked for them either.
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“The fact he's a champion means nothing if his first feud becomes a Triple H ego trip.”
“The fact he's a champion means nothing if his first feud becomes a Triple H ego trip.”
There are worse positions to be in. And I doubt his son is complaining.
At the end of the day I think the performers at times probably care less than us about the character. I'm sure Owens at the end is more pleased about being champion than worrying about whether HHH will appear on Raw.
And as much as we're all worried/assuming the worst over the storyline, let's be honest the most ridiculous thing they could do would be to y'know ignore last week.
It's another holiday in America anyway so the ratings for tonight will be down, it'll just be a throwaway show since that's what they do on holidays. I doubt much will happen.
Nobody is saying to ignore last week.
At Hunter's point in his career, both as a talent and an executive who is getting closer to getting his hands on the empire by the day, he should be working to get other talent over but he doesn't. He goes into business for himself because he wants the pops and **** anybody else around him.
At Hunter's point in his career, both as a talent and an executive who is getting closer to getting his hands on the empire by the day, he should be working to get other talent over but he doesn't. He goes into business for himself because he wants the pops and **** anybody else around him.
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“There are worse positions to be in. And I doubt his son is complaining.
At the end of the day I think the performers at times probably care less than us about the character. I'm sure Owens at the end is more pleased about being champion than worrying about whether HHH will appear on Raw.
And as much as we're all worried/assuming the worst over the storyline, let's be honest the most ridiculous thing they could do would be to y'know ignore last week.”
“There are worse positions to be in. And I doubt his son is complaining.
At the end of the day I think the performers at times probably care less than us about the character. I'm sure Owens at the end is more pleased about being champion than worrying about whether HHH will appear on Raw.
And as much as we're all worried/assuming the worst over the storyline, let's be honest the most ridiculous thing they could do would be to y'know ignore last week.”
Kevin Owens' son being happy does not make Raw a good show.
Originally Posted by Lee_Smith2:
“Speaking of Clash of Champions, anybody else think these now 2 monthly events should be 2 hours each?
They could be quality at that time and featuring only 5 matches.”
“Speaking of Clash of Champions, anybody else think these now 2 monthly events should be 2 hours each?
They could be quality at that time and featuring only 5 matches.”
I agree but from WWE's POV I guess that will makes PPV's/Special events a hour less than Raw so they wont seem quite as big a deal.
I do wonder if they will promote both at the same time and this time they just waited because of the Balor injury and Title situation otherwise they will only ever have about 2 weeks to build it up.
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“This is why modern wrestling is broken.”
“This is why modern wrestling is broken.”
To be fair though if fans do like a superstar, why shouldn't they cheer them?
Frankly I just don't think 'face' actions and 'heel' actions exist and unless you truly are an 'ultraface' a la Bayley or Zayn - crowds will just cheer who they like and boo who they don't whether the superstar is face or heel.
Rather than fighting it, best to adapt to it.
And as nice a moment it was for Owens, who to his credit looked genuinely surprised (at one point I was questioning whether he actually knew what was going on, the selling of the surprise was that good), he's a heel. Whilst the selling of the surprise was great, and should have happened, he should have heeled it up within seconds.
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“To be fair though if fans do like a superstar, why shouldn't they cheer them?
Frankly I just don't think 'face' actions and 'heel' actions exist and unless you truly are an 'ultraface' a la Bayley or Zayn - crowds will just cheer who they like and boo who they don't whether the superstar is face or heel.
Rather than fighting it, best to adapt to it.”
“To be fair though if fans do like a superstar, why shouldn't they cheer them?
Frankly I just don't think 'face' actions and 'heel' actions exist and unless you truly are an 'ultraface' a la Bayley or Zayn - crowds will just cheer who they like and boo who they don't whether the superstar is face or heel.
Rather than fighting it, best to adapt to it.”
If it's impossible to get heat then there's almost no point in wrestling.
And if fans basically refuse to suspend their disbelief then it kinda sucks. Especially when there is no sense of winning and losing being important, just 'performing' and having 'good matches' and being 'deserving.' This isn't expressed very well I'm sure but I could write an essay on this so I'll spare you all the reading.
https://twitter.com/MrLARIATO/status/772937987269226496
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“To be fair though if fans do like a superstar, why shouldn't they cheer them?
Frankly I just don't think 'face' actions and 'heel' actions exist and unless you truly are an 'ultraface' a la Bayley or Zayn - crowds will just cheer who they like and boo who they don't whether the superstar is face or heel.
Rather than fighting it, best to adapt to it.”
“To be fair though if fans do like a superstar, why shouldn't they cheer them?
Frankly I just don't think 'face' actions and 'heel' actions exist and unless you truly are an 'ultraface' a la Bayley or Zayn - crowds will just cheer who they like and boo who they don't whether the superstar is face or heel.
Rather than fighting it, best to adapt to it.”
Because it's impossible to build a villain to any long term point and that's what wrestling is. Hero vs Villain.
You need good guys and bad guys and how WWE is supposed to build characters/stories when a crowd can turn over the space of a week?
You're in the middle of a two month storyline and the crowd turns the heel face, what happens to the face? There's no bad guy for us to want the face to overcome.
The thing is, Rollins hasn't actually completed his face turn yet. As of last week he was an opportunistic prick until the end, when the swerve happened. The writers should make tonight's narrative about solidifying it. Then have Owens return at the end and brutally attack him.
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“Kevin Owens' son being happy does not make Raw a good show.”
“Kevin Owens' son being happy does not make Raw a good show.”
I didn't mention Raw being a good show though. I just suggested KO would be happy at being a World Champ whether HHH appears for an hour this week or doesn't appear at all.
I'm just going to put it out there that we aren't going to be impressed with the opening segment this week lol.
Any guesses on how long before the words 'this business' are used?
Then Kevin Owens is in the wrong business. If you don't care that a 47 year old man is coming in and stealing your spotlight because you got an ugly, prestige void piece of leather over your shoulder and it made your son smile, go do something else because your passion is gone.
I don't buy that we care more about characters than wrestlers do. Look at all the things Cody has said since leaving about his character, Sting refusing to work for Vince at least partially because he feared for his character, Undertaker not wanting to work Axxess/superstar appearances to hold the belief of his character.
I don't buy that we care more about characters than wrestlers do. Look at all the things Cody has said since leaving about his character, Sting refusing to work for Vince at least partially because he feared for his character, Undertaker not wanting to work Axxess/superstar appearances to hold the belief of his character.
Originally Posted by James Frederick:
“I agree but from WWE's POV I guess that will makes PPV's/Special events a hour less than Raw so they wont seem quite as big a deal.
I do wonder if they will promote both at the same time and this time they just waited because of the Balor injury and Title situation otherwise they will only ever have about 2 weeks to build it up.”
“I agree but from WWE's POV I guess that will makes PPV's/Special events a hour less than Raw so they wont seem quite as big a deal.
I do wonder if they will promote both at the same time and this time they just waited because of the Balor injury and Title situation otherwise they will only ever have about 2 weeks to build it up.”
I see what you mean. I'm just struggling to think what Backlash has apart from Styles/Ambrose, Women's match, Tag Title final, Miz/Ziggler and Orton/Bray. Anything else is glorified Main Event matches.
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“Because it's impossible to build a villain to any long term point and that's what wrestling is. Hero vs Villain.
You need good guys and bad guys and how WWE is supposed to build characters/stories when a crowd can turn over the space of a week?
You're in the middle of a two month storyline and the crowd turns the heel face, what happens to the face? There's no bad guy for us to want the face to overcome.”
“Because it's impossible to build a villain to any long term point and that's what wrestling is. Hero vs Villain.
You need good guys and bad guys and how WWE is supposed to build characters/stories when a crowd can turn over the space of a week?
You're in the middle of a two month storyline and the crowd turns the heel face, what happens to the face? There's no bad guy for us to want the face to overcome.”
At the same time I'm not sure what we're arguing for here - that crowds shouldn't chant for who they want?
And there does need to be a bit more flexibility in terms of the writing - if the fans are consistently booing a face and cheering a heel that might be a message to turn them.
And in the example you can adapt the story a little - the heel can still act a bit heel-ish but acknowledge the split reaction and don't do WWE's current tactic of 'Oh this heel is dasterdly and the crowd loathe him/her (just ignore the cheers)).
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“At the same time I'm not sure what we're arguing for here - that crowds shouldn't chant for who they want?
And there does need to be a bit more flexibility in terms of the writing - if the fans are consistently booing a face and cheering a heel that might be a message to turn them.
And in the example you can adapt the story a little - the heel can still act a bit heel-ish but acknowledge the split reaction and don't do WWE's current tactic of 'Oh this heel is dasterdly and the crowd loathe him/her (just ignore the cheers)).”
“At the same time I'm not sure what we're arguing for here - that crowds shouldn't chant for who they want?
And there does need to be a bit more flexibility in terms of the writing - if the fans are consistently booing a face and cheering a heel that might be a message to turn them.
And in the example you can adapt the story a little - the heel can still act a bit heel-ish but acknowledge the split reaction and don't do WWE's current tactic of 'Oh this heel is dasterdly and the crowd loathe him/her (just ignore the cheers)).”
That wrestling is fundamentally broken because there is such a huge divergence between the crowds and the stories being told. Can you imagine how bizarre and confusing that would have been for someone watching for the first time or something? It means wrestling is kinda confined to the people who are already into it and that the only people who can get over are certain types who are judged to 'deserve it.' The championship isn't about winning and being the best, it's a reward for paying dues and being in the indies/NXT/New Japan.
Meltzer makes a good analogy that a good booker gives the fans what they want and a great booker manipulates the fans into wanting what he intends to give him. A radica rethink is required to get back to the scenario where Vince McMahon or whoever can do that.
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“Then Kevin Owens is in the wrong business. If you don't care that a 47 year old man is coming in and stealing your spotlight because you got an ugly, prestige void piece of leather over your shoulder and it made your son smile, go do something else because your passion is gone.
I don't buy that we care more about characters than wrestlers do. Look at all the things Cody has said since leaving about his character, Sting refusing to work for Vince at least partially because he feared for his character, Undertaker not wanting to work Axxess/superstar appearances to hold the belief of his character.”
“Then Kevin Owens is in the wrong business. If you don't care that a 47 year old man is coming in and stealing your spotlight because you got an ugly, prestige void piece of leather over your shoulder and it made your son smile, go do something else because your passion is gone.
I don't buy that we care more about characters than wrestlers do. Look at all the things Cody has said since leaving about his character, Sting refusing to work for Vince at least partially because he feared for his character, Undertaker not wanting to work Axxess/superstar appearances to hold the belief of his character.”
I'm not saying he doesn't care full stop about his booking - that's a total strawman argument.
But at the same time he can do that but also be pleased to have become a World Champion in WWE. I mean if he can't enjoy being a World Champion then he really is in the wrong business.
I mean you have to enjoy the good moments. If you choose to not enjoy them because you're not in a goodilocks booking situation then you lose motivation quickly.
I'm not saying superstars don't care about booking and their characters (they do) but they do have some perspective too.
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“At the same time I'm not sure what we're arguing for here - that crowds shouldn't chant for who they want?
And there does need to be a bit more flexibility in terms of the writing - if the fans are consistently booing a face and cheering a heel that might be a message to turn them.
And in the example you can adapt the story a little - the heel can still act a bit heel-ish but acknowledge the split reaction and don't do WWE's current tactic of 'Oh this heel is dasterdly and the crowd loathe him/her (just ignore the cheers)).”
“At the same time I'm not sure what we're arguing for here - that crowds shouldn't chant for who they want?
And there does need to be a bit more flexibility in terms of the writing - if the fans are consistently booing a face and cheering a heel that might be a message to turn them.
And in the example you can adapt the story a little - the heel can still act a bit heel-ish but acknowledge the split reaction and don't do WWE's current tactic of 'Oh this heel is dasterdly and the crowd loathe him/her (just ignore the cheers)).”
I'm arguing (at least I think I am) the same as FMKK.
Crowds are fickle, they always have been and they always will be. Lesnar can turn from a face to a heel simply by Heyman saying "my client beat the streak". In less than ten seconds, Heyman can go from getting Lesnar cheered to getting Lesnar booed.
Flexibility is fine but they've built Owens as a heel, I think they've done a pretty good job of Owens. Now all of that doesn't matter because we have to turn him face with no storyline reason to. We might as well just give up because we can't build heels any more without having to turn them face.
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“That wrestling is fundamentally broken because there is such a huge divergence between the crowds and the stories being told. Can you imagine how bizarre and confusing that would have been for someone watching for the first time or something? It means wrestling is kinda confined to the people who are already into it and that the only people who can get over are certain types who are judged to 'deserve it.' The championship isn't about winning and being the best, it's a reward for paying dues and being in the indies/NXT/New Japan.
Meltzer makes a good analogy that a good booker gives the fans what they want and a great booker manipulates the fans into wanting what he intends to give him. A radica rethink is required to get back to the scenario where Vince McMahon or whoever can do that.”
“That wrestling is fundamentally broken because there is such a huge divergence between the crowds and the stories being told. Can you imagine how bizarre and confusing that would have been for someone watching for the first time or something? It means wrestling is kinda confined to the people who are already into it and that the only people who can get over are certain types who are judged to 'deserve it.' The championship isn't about winning and being the best, it's a reward for paying dues and being in the indies/NXT/New Japan.
Meltzer makes a good analogy that a good booker gives the fans what they want and a great booker manipulates the fans into wanting what he intends to give him. A radica rethink is required to get back to the scenario where Vince McMahon or whoever can do that.”
Brilliant last paragraph. Completely agree with Meltzer there.
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“I'm not saying he doesn't care full stop about his booking - that's a total strawman argument.
But at the same time he can do that but also be pleased to have become a World Champion in WWE. I mean if he can't enjoy being a World Champion then he really is in the wrong business.
I mean you have to enjoy the good moments. If you choose to not enjoy them because you're not in a goodilocks booking situation then you lose motivation quickly.
I'm not saying superstars don't care about booking and their characters (they do) but they do have some perspective too.”
“I'm not saying he doesn't care full stop about his booking - that's a total strawman argument.
But at the same time he can do that but also be pleased to have become a World Champion in WWE. I mean if he can't enjoy being a World Champion then he really is in the wrong business.
I mean you have to enjoy the good moments. If you choose to not enjoy them because you're not in a goodilocks booking situation then you lose motivation quickly.
I'm not saying superstars don't care about booking and their characters (they do) but they do have some perspective too.”
How can you be pleased that your holding a strap of leather but as a World Champion, you're an afterthought? How can anybody be pleased or enjoy that moment?
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