Agree on that first sentence there is a huge disconnect. But maybe fans have changed and react differently to how they did before and at that point surely it's up to TPTB to adapt accordingly. I just don't get the idea that the fans are 'wrong' - they are the paying customers at the end of the day.

I get the arugment that the likes of Zayn/Bayley are 'pure' wrestling characters and in the end if only all other superstars are like them then it'd be fans cheering good guys, booing bad guys. But then it works with them because they're Zayn and Bayley and other superstars on the roster aren't like them - if you had a roster full of Zayns it'd dilute his impact.

And on the 'indies/NXT/New Japan' point I'll just over the counterargument that Ziggler got a huge reaction on winning the World Title and he had little to no indy history.
The idea that fans will chant for superstars just due to their pre-main roster history too strikers me as a false one too.

I'm finding Mauro harder and harder to listen to each week. His OTT nature is really pissing me off now.

DB is pretty bad too on the CWC comms. 'I've never seen that before!' Oh **** off!

Agreed that ideally they should try and keep KO heel - and there are ways to do it but it's up to WWE to do those ways and book so they get the desired reaction.
But at a certain point if WWE really do have to keep going to ridiculous limits to get fans to react a certain way (like they seem to have to far too often at the minute) then maybe there's a message there for TPTB that they need to change something.

And 'the paying public are wrong' isn't a good strategy to use for a wrestling company.

He's basically the one exception to the rule, but he worked the show-offy, big bumping style that is kinda self-consciously aimed at getting yourself over to that audience.

Because at the end of the day, whatever happen he can tell his kids/grandkids etc. how he was world champion which is a pretty cool thing.
And that main title belt is what you work for - if you get it you've done bloody well and are at least in a prominent role so you should enjoy it.

To flip from the Raw example, are we seriously suggesting Ambrose will be feeling miserable being WWE champion because it's the Shane and Bryan show and AJ Styles has the most momentum of any superstar on that brand? No he'll be at least a bit happy to be World Champ I assume.

I do like this logic though that fans are wrong and superstars should be miserable as sin after becoming WWE/World champ.
It just fundamentally strikes me as odd.

But that's not what I'm saying necessarily. I mean, they are wrong but WWE themselves are as much to blame for us getting to this point as the crowds are. It's symbiotic.

I can see both sides to that. The last bit is interesting because it was a WWE guy beating a guy who was huge outside of the WWE (Del Rio). Though McMahon was forcing Del Rio to the top and he is boring in this company. In contrast, Ziggler had developed and got better and more interesting in front of them over a 6 year period. A case of hard work vs entitlement. Now Dolph is far less popular with the audience because he's stagnated, like Sean Waltman did 15 years ago.

You say it as if it's a bad thing.

Anyway onto Raw - I'm drifiting off fairly early on anyway but there's more chance of me ending the night with Nia Jax then all of us on here liking the opening segment. Especially if the crowd *gasps* chant for superstars they like.

You mentioned strawman arguments earlier, that last part is the a good example. Not one person has said anybody should be miserable about being world champion. But I don't think Owens grew up dreaming of being WWE Champion whilst Triple H takes his spotlight.

You want to be champion so you can be #1, you can promote yourself and your brand, you can be considered the best. Not so that Triple H can come in and take your spot because he hasn't had his ego massaged in a few months.

He screwed Reigns over in his last feud, he practically destoryed Orton's character and turned him into a little bitch, he made Rollins a lap dog, forgive me for not wanting to see the same happen to Owens.

That link is just brilliant that sounds like a promo that only creative could come up with we need more Simpsons links on this thread.

But the crowd aren't wrong. They are the paying customers. Even WWE don't go with the idea that the 'crowd are wrong'.

Anyway onto Raw otherwise I think we could go all night.

'Best ending to Raw' ever. LOL.

To be fair this is a nice package by WWE.

I think the one thing most people remember is the look of shock on his face when he won the belt, a proper heel would have just made the cover and been so smug about it but the fact that he stands there watching Triple H help him, then makes the cover, gets the pin and STILL looks shocked gives off the impression that even HE can't believe he won it when all heels should always give the impression they know they are going to win, there should never be in any doubt that they wont win.


It just amazes me how so many people like this guy, he's just a big fat guy, he's not even that tall compared to some of the other wrestlers. He's like one of those guys that will pick a fight with people but has no chance of actually winning the fight lol. Everyone knows one in real life, the kind of person where you just laugh at them getting angry, they've never won a fight in their life. That's just the vibe he gives off. An idiot. Most fans could take him in a fight. I could take him in a fight. And this guys the Champion? Vince McMahon must be taking the piss, it must be a joke behind closed doors.

Good morning everyone staying up, lets see what HHH has to say then

Prime example, how long did he keep Rollins in that Pedigree lock? I'm supposed to believe Rollins couldn't have gotten out of that? But I suppose Hunter soaking it up means more

Say what you will about the booking but the execution of it was sodding brilliant.

A celebration - when have they ever gone wrong?

Yay Raw has followed SD in making the show all about authority figures.

Dissension between the commish and GM

Sorry is this not what we've just spent an hour talking about lol?

So it's Steph who's getting eulogised here.

Steph is such a terrible face.

I do want Rollins and Steph affair though

I was talking about whether KO would be happy to be World Champ.

Steph being a bad person. Perish the thought! FMKK will have you know she's Mother Teresa.

ACTING.

So the story is that Steph was really in on it? Kinda hoping she and Seth were ****ing and that's the angle.

From what I've heard about Mother Teresa this week, she makes Stephanie look like the one deserving of a sainthood lol.

Forget that, I want Orton and Steph first - brand split be damned.

That has to be the angle. That turn would be brilliant.

KO in a suit - he really has been Authoritised.