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World Wrestling Entertainment Discussion 42 (Spoilers)
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BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“That wrestling is fundamentally broken because there is such a huge divergence between the crowds and the stories being told. Can you imagine how bizarre and confusing that would have been for someone watching for the first time or something? It means wrestling is kinda confined to the people who are already into it and that the only people who can get over are certain types who are judged to 'deserve it.' The championship isn't about winning and being the best, it's a reward for paying dues and being in the indies/NXT/New Japan.

Meltzer makes a good analogy that a good booker gives the fans what they want and a great booker manipulates the fans into wanting what he intends to give him. A radica rethink is required to get back to the scenario where Vince McMahon or whoever can do that.”

Agree on that first sentence there is a huge disconnect. But maybe fans have changed and react differently to how they did before and at that point surely it's up to TPTB to adapt accordingly. I just don't get the idea that the fans are 'wrong' - they are the paying customers at the end of the day.

I get the arugment that the likes of Zayn/Bayley are 'pure' wrestling characters and in the end if only all other superstars are like them then it'd be fans cheering good guys, booing bad guys. But then it works with them because they're Zayn and Bayley and other superstars on the roster aren't like them - if you had a roster full of Zayns it'd dilute his impact.

And on the 'indies/NXT/New Japan' point I'll just over the counterargument that Ziggler got a huge reaction on winning the World Title and he had little to no indy history.
The idea that fans will chant for superstars just due to their pre-main roster history too strikers me as a false one too.
PandaPawPaw
06-09-2016
I'm finding Mauro harder and harder to listen to each week. His OTT nature is really pissing me off now.

DB is pretty bad too on the CWC comms. 'I've never seen that before!' Oh **** off!
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“I'm arguing (at least I think I am) the same as FMKK.

Crowds are fickle, they always have been and they always will be. Lesnar can turn from a face to a heel simply by Heyman saying "my client beat the streak". In less than ten seconds, Heyman can go from getting Lesnar cheered to getting Lesnar booed.

Flexibility is fine but they've built Owens as a heel, I think they've done a pretty good job of Owens. Now all of that doesn't matter because we have to turn him face with no storyline reason to. We might as well just give up because we can't build heels any more without having to turn them face.”

Agreed that ideally they should try and keep KO heel - and there are ways to do it but it's up to WWE to do those ways and book so they get the desired reaction.
But at a certain point if WWE really do have to keep going to ridiculous limits to get fans to react a certain way (like they seem to have to far too often at the minute) then maybe there's a message there for TPTB that they need to change something.

And 'the paying public are wrong' isn't a good strategy to use for a wrestling company.
FMKK
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Agree on that first sentence there is a huge disconnect. But maybe fans have changed and react differently to how they did before and at that point surely it's up to TPTB to adapt accordingly. I just don't get the idea that the fans are 'wrong' - they are the paying customers at the end of the day.

I get the arugment that the likes of Zayn/Bayley are 'pure' wrestling characters and in the end if only all other superstars are like them then it'd be fans cheering good guys, booing bad guys. But then it works with them because they're Zayn and Bayley and other superstars on the roster aren't like them - if you had a roster full of Zayns it'd dilute his impact.

And on the 'indies/NXT/New Japan' point I'll just over the counterargument that Ziggler got a huge reaction on winning the World Title and he had little to no indy history.
The idea that fans will chant for superstars just due to their pre-main roster history too strikers me as a false one too.”

He's basically the one exception to the rule, but he worked the show-offy, big bumping style that is kinda self-consciously aimed at getting yourself over to that audience.
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“How can you be pleased that your holding a strap of leather but as a World Champion, you're an afterthought? How can anybody be pleased or enjoy that moment?”

Because at the end of the day, whatever happen he can tell his kids/grandkids etc. how he was world champion which is a pretty cool thing.
And that main title belt is what you work for - if you get it you've done bloody well and are at least in a prominent role so you should enjoy it.

To flip from the Raw example, are we seriously suggesting Ambrose will be feeling miserable being WWE champion because it's the Shane and Bryan show and AJ Styles has the most momentum of any superstar on that brand? No he'll be at least a bit happy to be World Champ I assume.

I do like this logic though that fans are wrong and superstars should be miserable as sin after becoming WWE/World champ.
It just fundamentally strikes me as odd.
FMKK
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Agreed that ideally they should try and keep KO heel - and there are ways to do it but it's up to WWE to do those ways and book so they get the desired reaction.
But at a certain point if WWE really do have to keep going to ridiculous limits to get fans to react a certain way (like they seem to have to far too often at the minute) then maybe there's a message there for TPTB that they need to change something.

And 'the paying public are wrong' isn't a good strategy to use for a wrestling company.”

But that's not what I'm saying necessarily. I mean, they are wrong but WWE themselves are as much to blame for us getting to this point as the crowds are. It's symbiotic.
Lee_Smith2
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Agree on that first sentence there is a huge disconnect. But maybe fans have changed and react differently to how they did before and at that point surely it's up to TPTB to adapt accordingly. I just don't get the idea that the fans are 'wrong' - they are the paying customers at the end of the day.

I get the arugment that the likes of Zayn/Bayley are 'pure' wrestling characters and in the end if only all other superstars are like them then it'd be fans cheering good guys, booing bad guys. But then it works with them because they're Zayn and Bayley and other superstars on the roster aren't like them - if you had a roster full of Zayns it'd dilute his impact.

And on the 'indies/NXT/New Japan' point I'll just over the counterargument that Ziggler got a huge reaction on winning the World Title and he had little to no indy history.
The idea that fans will chant for superstars just due to their pre-main roster history too strikers me as a false one too.”

I can see both sides to that. The last bit is interesting because it was a WWE guy beating a guy who was huge outside of the WWE (Del Rio). Though McMahon was forcing Del Rio to the top and he is boring in this company. In contrast, Ziggler had developed and got better and more interesting in front of them over a 6 year period. A case of hard work vs entitlement. Now Dolph is far less popular with the audience because he's stagnated, like Sean Waltman did 15 years ago.
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“He's basically the one exception to the rule, but he worked the show-offy, big bumping style that is kinda self-consciously aimed at getting yourself over to that audience.”

You say it as if it's a bad thing.

Anyway onto Raw - I'm drifiting off fairly early on anyway but there's more chance of me ending the night with Nia Jax then all of us on here liking the opening segment. Especially if the crowd *gasps* chant for superstars they like.
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
You mentioned strawman arguments earlier, that last part is the a good example. Not one person has said anybody should be miserable about being world champion. But I don't think Owens grew up dreaming of being WWE Champion whilst Triple H takes his spotlight.

You want to be champion so you can be #1, you can promote yourself and your brand, you can be considered the best. Not so that Triple H can come in and take your spot because he hasn't had his ego massaged in a few months.

He screwed Reigns over in his last feud, he practically destoryed Orton's character and turned him into a little bitch, he made Rollins a lap dog, forgive me for not wanting to see the same happen to Owens.
Sinister2010
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Even though the former will happen, I think KO is still a strong enough performer to come out of it with popularity in tact.

And at the same time, he is currently World Champion so I wouldn't be bringing out the violins.

Related to the above live footage coming in Creative as they write tonight's opening segment.”

That link is just brilliant that sounds like a promo that only creative could come up with we need more Simpsons links on this thread.
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“But that's not what I'm saying necessarily. I mean, they are wrong but WWE themselves are as much to blame for us getting to this point as the crowds are. It's symbiotic.”

But the crowd aren't wrong. They are the paying customers. Even WWE don't go with the idea that the 'crowd are wrong'.

Anyway onto Raw otherwise I think we could go all night.

'Best ending to Raw' ever. LOL.

To be fair this is a nice package by WWE.
hazydayz
06-09-2016
I think the one thing most people remember is the look of shock on his face when he won the belt, a proper heel would have just made the cover and been so smug about it but the fact that he stands there watching Triple H help him, then makes the cover, gets the pin and STILL looks shocked gives off the impression that even HE can't believe he won it when all heels should always give the impression they know they are going to win, there should never be in any doubt that they wont win.


It just amazes me how so many people like this guy, he's just a big fat guy, he's not even that tall compared to some of the other wrestlers. He's like one of those guys that will pick a fight with people but has no chance of actually winning the fight lol. Everyone knows one in real life, the kind of person where you just laugh at them getting angry, they've never won a fight in their life. That's just the vibe he gives off. An idiot. Most fans could take him in a fight. I could take him in a fight. And this guys the Champion? Vince McMahon must be taking the piss, it must be a joke behind closed doors.
richie4eva
06-09-2016
Good morning everyone staying up, lets see what HHH has to say then
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
Prime example, how long did he keep Rollins in that Pedigree lock? I'm supposed to believe Rollins couldn't have gotten out of that? But I suppose Hunter soaking it up means more
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Say what you will about the booking but the execution of it was sodding brilliant.

A celebration - when have they ever gone wrong?

Yay Raw has followed SD in making the show all about authority figures.
richie4eva
06-09-2016
Dissension between the commish and GM
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“Say what you will about the booking but the execution of it was sodding brilliant.

A celebration - when have they ever gone wrong?

Yay Raw has followed SD in making the show all about authority figures.”

Sorry is this not what we've just spent an hour talking about lol?
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
So it's Steph who's getting eulogised here.

Steph is such a terrible face.
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
I do want Rollins and Steph affair though
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“Sorry is this not what we've just spent an hour talking about lol?”

I was talking about whether KO would be happy to be World Champ.

Steph being a bad person. Perish the thought! FMKK will have you know she's Mother Teresa.
FMKK
06-09-2016
ACTING.

So the story is that Steph was really in on it? Kinda hoping she and Seth were ****ing and that's the angle.
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by BFGArmy:
“I was talking about whether KO would be happy to be World Champ.

Steph being a bad person. Perish the thought! FMKK will have you know she's Mother Teresa.”

From what I've heard about Mother Teresa this week, she makes Stephanie look like the one deserving of a sainthood lol.
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by Hollie_Louise:
“I do want Rollins and Steph affair though ”

Forget that, I want Orton and Steph first - brand split be damned.
Hollie_Louise
06-09-2016
Originally Posted by FMKK:
“ACTING.

So the story is that Steph was really in on it? Kinda hoping she and Seth were ****ing and that's the angle.”

That has to be the angle. That turn would be brilliant.
BFGArmy
06-09-2016
KO in a suit - he really has been Authoritised.
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