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Group E: Belgium vs Italy - KO 8pm, BBC1/HD |
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#326 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Performing wonders at club level is not much use if you can't do it for the national team as well. You can't call yourself a great international player unless you're proving it by having great games for your country in big tournaments.
In many cases players are playing at a higher level with their clubs than with their countries. |
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#327 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: West Highlands
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I don't think we should write off Belgium quite yet. There is a long way to go.
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#328 |
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Derby
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You can be a great player though. International football is no longer the judge of a player. Players play in big leagues with and against other big players week in week out and are tested that way. If Ronaldo doesn't play well for Portugal this week does that suddenly make him a lesser player than when he was winning Champions League titles and setting goal scoring records with his club at the highest level?
In many cases players are playing at a higher level with their clubs than with their countries. I once made a case that we no longer need international football and all the trouble it brings but people rubbished my argument!
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#329 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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Winning the WC is still bigger, more iconic and more historic achievement as it's only once every four years so less people achieve it
Whether or not its a higher standard is where the argument is |
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#330 |
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Winning the WC is still bigger, more iconic and more historic achievement as it's only once every four years so less people achieve it
Whether or not its a higher standard is where the argument is |
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#331 |
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Join Date: Nov 2002
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Quote:
Winning the WC is still bigger, more iconic and more historic achievement as it's only once every four years so less people achieve it
Whether or not its a higher standard is where the argument is |
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#332 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Agreed. International football is no longer the pinnacle of the game. Winning the World Cup today is no bigger than winning the Champions League. In fact the CL is tougher as you'll play more hard games against quality opposition than you will in the World Cup.
I once made a case that we no longer need international football and all the trouble it brings but people rubbished my argument! ![]() The WC dwarfs the CL in terms of importance and interest! The CL is a here today gone tomorrow tournament that's remembered by only the fans who's team win it each year. Those who win World Cups go down as sporting greats in their nation. As for being the highest quality. ![]() A Cup won by Liverpool, a club that hasn't been champs of their own country for a quarter of a century. A cup that was won by a struggling Chelsea team that finished 6th that season. |
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#333 |
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The World Cup is a far bigger stage than the Champions League. The Champions League final is watched by about 180m people every year - the World Cup final by over 1 billion.
The CL is a small competition when compared to the WC. |
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#334 |
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They have quality players who demonstrate their quality week in week out. If they are underachieving as a nation then its foolish to say "the players aren't good enough" when they demonstrate in a far more logical environment that they are.
They have a couple of players who are very good premiership players on their day, but that does not make them great players or world class. The rest are average or Lukaku level players at this level. |
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#335 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Quote:
The World Cup is a far bigger stage than the Champions League. The Champions League final is watched by about 180m people every year - the World Cup final by over 1 billion.
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Utter rubbish with not one fact to back it up!
The WC dwarfs the CL in terms of importance and interest! The CL is a here today gone tomorrow tournament that's remembered by only the fans who's team win it each year. Those who win World Cups go down as sporting greats in their nation. As for being the highest quality. ![]() A Cup won by Liverpool, a club that hasn't been champs of their own country for a quarter of a century. A cup that was won by a struggling Chelsea team that finished 6th that season. If you were going to judge the quality of a player which is the better way...Consistently performing year in year out in the CL league against other quality teams or playing for a couple of weeks every four years in a summer tournament with players he sees every couple of months at best? The growth of the CL has allowed the best players to test themselves against each other on a far more consistent basis. Oleg Salenko was not a fantastic player because he scored a load of goals in one world cup. |
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#336 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Viewing figures have nothing to do with a benchmark for the quality of a player.
Irrelevant. They are all cup competition so will have winner who aren't always the "best" team. If you were going to judge the quality of a player which is the better way...Consistently performing year in year out in the CL league against other quality teams or playing for a couple of weeks every four years in a summer tournament with players he sees every couple of months at best? The growth of the CL has allowed the best players to test themselves against each other on a far more consistent basis. Oleg Salenko was not a fantastic player because he scored a load of goals in one world cup. Which trophy do you think Messi and Rinaldo would want to win the most - World Cup or the CL? Also, when is a WC ever won by a struggling team or a team that isn't close to being the best around like when Liverpool or Chelsea won it? Never! is the answer. Almost everyone involved in football has said Messi needs a WC to truly cement his status as one of the true alltime greats of the game. I have never heard anyone say a play needs to win the CL before he can be classed as a true great. Tournament football is the ultimate test, the same way slams are in Golf and Tennis and the Olympics are for other sports. |
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#337 |
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Utter rubbish with not one fact to back it up!
The WC dwarfs the CL in terms of importance and interest! The CL is a here today gone tomorrow tournament that's remembered by only the fans who's team win it each year. Those who win World Cups go down as sporting greats in their nation. As for being the highest quality. ![]() A Cup won by Liverpool, a club that hasn't been champs of their own country for a quarter of a century. A cup that was won by a struggling Chelsea team that finished 6th that season. |
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#338 |
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 26,167
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Be honest with your answer.
Which trophy do you think Messi and Rinaldo would want to win the most - World Cup or the CL? Also, when is a WC ever won by a struggling team or a team that isn't close to being the best around like when Liverpool or Chelsea won it? Never! is the answer. Almost everyone involved in football has said Messi needs a WC to truly cement his status as one of the true alltime greats of the game. I have never heard anyone say a play needs to win the CL before he can be classed as a true great. Tournament football is the ultimate test, the same way slams are in Golf and Tennis and the Olympics are for other sports. |
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#339 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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No they haven't. This is an entirely idiotic talking point that needed to die years ago. Anyone that thinks Messi isn't an all time great of the game isn't worth paying attention to.
The "Messi needs a great WC" was trotted out loads of times during the last WC. He had his best WC so far but stiff didn't quite hit the heights that he does at club level. Nobody doubts his skill and what he's done at Barca, but the rel greats do a bit more than have talent and perform at club level. Maradona inspired his nation to WC glory. He dragged a mediocre team in Napoli up the table to win titles. Pele, Cruyff inspired club and Country. Neither Messi or Ronaldo have done both. Fact! |
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#340 |
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Anything you can describe as being trotted out can be dismissed really. 'Could Messi do it at the Britannia on a wet Wednesday' is another.
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#341 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Anything you can describe as being trotted out can be dismissed really. 'Could Messi do it at the Britannia on a wet Wednesday' is another.
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#342 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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How many matches do Stoke play on a Wednesday night, nevermind a wet one, seeing as they have yet to appear in the Champions League??
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#343 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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It does look that way. But i think the belgians feel even more urgency to do well as they probably believe they'll never have a bunch of players even with a tenth of this lots talent ever again.
Was it USA who knocked them out in WC2014? And have they changed managers since? Because if Belgian football fans are anything like the english the belgian manager better not go back to belgium ever. |
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#344 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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How many matches do Stoke play on a Wednesday night, nevermind a wet one, seeing as they have yet to appear in the Champions League??
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#345 |
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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Oh yes they have!
The "Messi needs a great WC" was trotted out loads of times during the last WC. He had his best WC so far but stiff didn't quite hit the heights that he does at club level. Nobody doubts his skill and what he's done at Barca, but the rel greats do a bit more than have talent and perform at club level. Maradona inspired his nation to WC glory. He dragged a mediocre team in Napoli up the table to win titles. Pele, Cruyff inspired club and Country. Neither Messi or Ronaldo have done both. Fact! |
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#346 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Yeah, idiots have. People who only watch football during international tournaments say things like that. The shite pundits who are just living on the coat-tails of having the right mates say things like that. Not anyone who actually has a clue. How anyone could claim that Messi and Ronaldo aren't all time greats is baffling to me.
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#347 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Quote:
Be honest with your answer.
Which trophy do you think Messi and Rinaldo would want to win the most - World Cup or the CL? Also, when is a WC ever won by a struggling team or a team that isn't close to being the best around like when Liverpool or Chelsea won it? Never! is the answer. Almost everyone involved in football has said Messi needs a WC to truly cement his status as one of the true alltime greats of the game. I have never heard anyone say a play needs to win the CL before he can be classed as a true great. Tournament football is the ultimate test, the same way slams are in Golf and Tennis and the Olympics are for other sports. However what we are discussing is a players need to perform at one in order to prove themselves. That is no long the case. It was back in the 70s a before when players we never saw came from mythical leagues and the top players only ever came up against each other at such events. You only saw Brazil every 4 years. Now all the top players are all concentrated at the top clubs in the top leagues in one continent. The CL gives the top players the opportunity to challenge themselves against each other year in year out. They no longer have to rely on random things like there being a good group of fellow countrymen all fit and on top form on the same four weeks in a four year period. How do the top players control that? They cannot. They also can't choose their country of birth. Its not a good measure of what makes a quality player and thats the point that was originally being made. |
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#348 |
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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They are all time greats, but are they up there with Pele and Maradona
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#349 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Yeah, idiots have. People who only watch football during international tournaments say things like that. The shite pundits who are just living on the coat-tails of having the right mates say things like that. Not anyone who actually has a clue. How anyone could claim that Messi and Ronaldo aren't all time greats is baffling to me.
Five mins ago on Radio 5 Live. Comments about yet another non performance by Ronaldo at tournament level. This time against the mighty Iceland. "He can't do it for Portugal." That = He can't do it at this level!!!!! Being great is not just about how much technical ability you have. Can he rise to the occassion when the weight of ecpectation is on his shoulders? He can't, the greats did! International teams know how to blunt and restrict him, in ways club teams are unable to do. That proves beyond any doubt this level is higher than CL football! |
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#350 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 15,844
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It doesn't. David Healy and Milan Baros were more prolific at international than club level, proving beyond any doubt that you can't use such a thing to prove anything beyond any doubt.
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