You can be a great player though. International football is no longer the judge of a player. Players play in big leagues with and against other big players week in week out and are tested that way. If Ronaldo doesn't play well for Portugal this week does that suddenly make him a lesser player than when he was winning Champions League titles and setting goal scoring records with his club at the highest level?

In many cases players are playing at a higher level with their clubs than with their countries.

I don't think we should write off Belgium quite yet. There is a long way to go.

Agreed. International football is no longer the pinnacle of the game. Winning the World Cup today is no bigger than winning the Champions League. In fact the CL is tougher as you'll play more hard games against quality opposition than you will in the World Cup.

I once made a case that we no longer need international football and all the trouble it brings but people rubbished my argument!

Winning the WC is still bigger, more iconic and more historic achievement as it's only once every four years so less people achieve it

Whether or not its a higher standard is where the argument is

Fair point.

The World Cup is a far bigger stage than the Champions League. The Champions League final is watched by about 180m people every year - the World Cup final by over 1 billion.

Utter rubbish with not one fact to back it up!

The WC dwarfs the CL in terms of importance and interest!
The CL is a here today gone tomorrow tournament that's remembered by only the fans who's team win it each year.
Those who win World Cups go down as sporting greats in their nation.
As for being the highest quality.
A Cup won by Liverpool, a club that hasn't been champs of their own country for a quarter of a century.
A cup that was won by a struggling Chelsea team that finished 6th that season.

All the most watched matches in history are England games. The Chelsea vs Leeds Cup Final replay is up there, but that's an exception.
The CL is a small competition when compared to the WC.

If you read my post again you'll see that I said they are not underachieving as much as some say they are. Yes, they should be doing better than what they do at tournaments, but there is nothing there to suggest they should be anywhere near favs to win tournaments.
They have a couple of players who are very good premiership players on their day, but that does not make them great players or world class.
The rest are average or Lukaku level players at this level.

Viewing figures have nothing to do with a benchmark for the quality of a player.


Irrelevant. They are all cup competition so will have winner who aren't always the "best" team.

If you were going to judge the quality of a player which is the better way...Consistently performing year in year out in the CL league against other quality teams or playing for a couple of weeks every four years in a summer tournament with players he sees every couple of months at best?

The growth of the CL has allowed the best players to test themselves against each other on a far more consistent basis. Oleg Salenko was not a fantastic player because he scored a load of goals in one world cup.

Be honest with your answer.
Which trophy do you think Messi and Rinaldo would want to win the most - World Cup or the CL?
Also, when is a WC ever won by a struggling team or a team that isn't close to being the best around like when Liverpool or Chelsea won it? Never! is the answer.
Almost everyone involved in football has said Messi needs a WC to truly cement his status as one of the true alltime greats of the game. I have never heard anyone say a play needs to win the CL before he can be classed as a true great.
Tournament football is the ultimate test, the same way slams are in Golf and Tennis and the Olympics are for other sports.

But equally there was only one decent consistent team in the 2014 World Cup - Germany. No one else was that convincing. You get several very good teams in the CL.

No they haven't. This is an entirely idiotic talking point that needed to die years ago. Anyone that thinks Messi isn't an all time great of the game isn't worth paying attention to.

Oh yes they have!
The "Messi needs a great WC" was trotted out loads of times during the last WC. He had his best WC so far but stiff didn't quite hit the heights that he does at club level.
Nobody doubts his skill and what he's done at Barca, but the rel greats do a bit more than have talent and perform at club level.
Maradona inspired his nation to WC glory. He dragged a mediocre team in Napoli up the table to win titles.
Pele, Cruyff inspired club and Country.
Neither Messi or Ronaldo have done both. Fact!

Anything you can describe as being trotted out can be dismissed really. 'Could Messi do it at the Britannia on a wet Wednesday' is another.

Well could he

How many matches do Stoke play on a Wednesday night, nevermind a wet one, seeing as they have yet to appear in the Champions League??

I think maybe they need to change their manager as i dont think Marc Wilmots is good enough to take this team to the next level so they can win a major tournament

It's a reserve game.

Yeah, idiots have. People who only watch football during international tournaments say things like that. The shite pundits who are just living on the coat-tails of having the right mates say things like that. Not anyone who actually has a clue. How anyone could claim that Messi and Ronaldo aren't all time greats is baffling to me.

They are all time greats, but are they up there with Pele and Maradona

What you are saying has nothing to do with the topic we were discussing. Im not saying the World Cup doesn't matter or that players dont want to win it. Its a big tournament and by virtue of only coming round every 4 years and by its very nature it has the eyes of the world on it.

However what we are discussing is a players need to perform at one in order to prove themselves. That is no long the case. It was back in the 70s a before when players we never saw came from mythical leagues and the top players only ever came up against each other at such events. You only saw Brazil every 4 years.

Now all the top players are all concentrated at the top clubs in the top leagues in one continent. The CL gives the top players the opportunity to challenge themselves against each other year in year out. They no longer have to rely on random things like there being a good group of fellow countrymen all fit and on top form on the same four weeks in a four year period. How do the top players control that? They cannot. They also can't choose their country of birth. Its not a good measure of what makes a quality player and thats the point that was originally being made.

Yes..

Five mins ago on Radio 5 Live.
Comments about yet another non performance by Ronaldo at tournament level. This time against the mighty Iceland.
"He can't do it for Portugal." That = He can't do it at this level!!!!!
Being great is not just about how much technical ability you have. Can he rise to the occassion when the weight of ecpectation is on his shoulders? He can't, the greats did!
International teams know how to blunt and restrict him, in ways club teams are unable to do. That proves beyond any doubt this level is higher than CL football!

It doesn't. David Healy and Milan Baros were more prolific at international than club level, proving beyond any doubt that you can't use such a thing to prove anything beyond any doubt.