When you say the amount of people defending England's performance against Iceland, you mean zero?

That was on day 1. However, since then I have been reading continuous posts about the media and the awful fans being too harsh on the poor England team, which is in fact one of the strongest in the world.

None of that is in defence of the Iceland game.

I haven't seen a single person defending Englands performance against Iceland, that's not to say that people haven't been looking at other issues surrounding the team in a wider context. Id say that was pretty sensible?

But you know we have not been talking about him having poor games against Iceland and Croatia at this tournament. Every player, even the greatest, can and do have poor games.
All along it has been about him being not remotely close to the player ar national tournament level that he has been at club level.
Rinaldo has been used as the prime example of this, but there's been quality players before him who couldn't transform their individual club form to national tournament level. Rooney being the main one for England. Fine in friendlies and qualifying, very ordinary at this level. Lamps, Gerrard to name just a few more.
As has been pointed out, even the truly magical Messi has struggled to do if for Argentina.
Yes, playing for RM against the likes of Barca is a big game, but in the scales of things it simply pales next to what this means.

We'll never agree on this matter, so we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I think much of it is a reaction to people like you, who supposedly support another team, but continually bang on about how bad England are. They had one terrible game, and anyone with a bit of sense knows that.

If people were only allowed to comment on teams they support, it would be a very boring discussion forum indeed...

Anyway, England did not have one terrible game. They had one decent 45 minutes in this tournament and one decent 45 minutes at the previous tournament. If that's acceptable to English fans, then no wonder England's results have been so stellar. Let me tell you, if Germany played the way England did these past two tournaments, the whole national team would have been dismantled and the players would never have been able to live it down.

The goal keeping legend Kahn who single-handedly dragged an awful Germany team to the WC 2002 final is still being reminded of the mistake he made in the final every time he appears on TV and the same with Uli Hoeness and his penalty miss.

But English fans take it all on the chin and keep defending the indefensible.

To be honest I can hardly think of an England fan who would really give a toss about Kahn or what Germany did or didn't do. England have as Deep Purple says had one terrible game and fell far short of their capabilities elsewhere. Every England fan either here or elsewhere has recognised that and everyone realises it simply isn't good enough, or in some cases, the side has been rightly pilloried.

Nobody is defending them or saying how well they've done as you seem to claim.

One of our major faults is we keep giving too many chances to too many players who repeatedly fail to deliver.
The fail and fail again, go back to their clubs and play as they usually do and we pick them yet again.
Rooney should have been axed four years ago, yet here is still is failing to deliver once again. The same went for Gerrard, Lamps and many others
I bet my house the likes of Sterling will still be in squads stinking the place out in 6 years time.

All people have done is point out that simply changing the manager or changing a couple of players isn't the answer to England's problems and that until people realise that England are doomed to repeat the cycle of qualifying for major tournaments with ease, seemingly underperforming then sacking the manager and demanding change.

Its been the formula for 20+ years and its not really paid dividends yet.

A better manager might help, but so might doing a lot of other things, most of which are not quick fixes.

There is a difference between commenting, and totally slagging off a team, the manager, and their supporters, which is what you're constantly doing.

We're not Germany, so that is irrelevant. Most of us know our limitations, and behave like all supporters do.

If a club supporter bombarded another clubs threads with the kind of thing you do about England, they wouldn't be warmly received. There is nothing but negativity, and attacks, yet you're not even a supporter. Give it a rest.

Totally agree. I think people accused of "making excuses" are just taking a look at the situation as a whole rather than simply demanding another manager and half the squad shot at dawn, which seems to be the more traditional response

So how many flop tournaments should have before they are replaced? 3, 5, 6?
How long should we keep persevearing with players who look out of their depth or fail tournament after tournament?
If anything, we have been far too patient with our players at this level!
Kane and Ali had appalling tournaments, but their forn for Spurs fell off a cliff after the Chelsea debacle and never looked like picking up in this tournament. Yes, give them more time and another tournament or two, but if they can't cut it by then. then they de dropped for good, no matter how well they play for their clubs.

Just throw in Championship players then. That'll solve it.

To think, Robson-Kanu could have been ours!

Apply that attitude and you'll eventually run out of players.

If they are the best available then they should play. Its as simple as that. Perhaps the more prudent thing to do might be to look at the reasons WHY English players over the last 20 years have been able to play at the top level for their clubs but feel so ill at ease with their national team in tournament situations. Similarly why each national team manager has been deemed to be crap no matter his CV prior to taking the job.

Its absolute head in the sand stuff to just blame the players and the managers and not look any more closely at what is going wrong. Wales are the perfect illustration of what England should be able to achieve every two years.

those are just excuses though. for example name one other major footballing nation that doesn't have to play under a ridiculous amount of pressure - there isn't one. there aren't really any factors/reasons/causes unique to England that can in any way be offered even remotely as an excuse for continued under-achievement and embarrassment for this long.

Indeed, and when you compare England to somewhere like Germany, for example, it really hits home why "pressure to perform" isn't an excuse. The Germans are expected to WIN tournaments - for England I think most would be happy with good performances and a run to the quarters.

Great. Do nothing then, then stare in wide eyed bewilderment when the exact same thing happens in two years time, then another two years etc etc and blame the manager - by then it will be a foreign coach who can be blamed for not understanding the English mentality and he can be replaced by an English coach as by then it will be a requirement to be English again.

Im not offering anything up as an excuse I'm simply saying that if group after group and manager after manager continue to fail then surely there has to be more offered as a solution than "sack the manager!!!!" and "Get rid of these clowns!!"

Exactly! Media and fan pressure in Germany is IMMENSE. The press and fans were completely ripping Low apart at the start of the 2014 World Cup and even more so after their Algeria game. Had Germany come back with anything less than the title, Low would have been sacked without a doubt.

The same goes for Italy where poor Pelle has been ripped to shreds when he tweeted a holiday picture (which turned out to have been taken prior to the tournament) and everyone has been destroying Conte and the team (prior to the tournament obviously).

The "pressure" on the English players is the least of all the big football nations because they've been underachieving for so long. Nowadays, no one even expects them to reach a semi-final, let alone win a tournament. Reaching the quarter finals by beating Iceland is not putting too much pressure on a team of Premier League stars! It's really insane to blame the press or the fans for the players' inability to pass a ball to each other or take a corner or a free kick.

Germany do have higher expectations, but at the same time there's a reason why. England won something 50 years ago but have done next to nothing since to expect anything, with a culture that leaves no room for hope or patience because we keep going for stopgaps and thinking 'maybe this time' before sabotaging it all over again.

But you are just looking at the results and not the team's actual performances, which have completely fallen off a cliff since 2006. Prior to 2006, England had bad luck, bad goal keepers, couldn't take penalties etc etc, but since 2006 the performances have become so bad (and getting progressively worse) that any hope of ever reliving the glory days of the quarter-final exists are quickly evaporating.

Nobody has excused the Iceland game and nobody will. I wish you'd stop pretending that's going on.

The have been normal fluctuations in quality of players of course, that is reasonable, but the outcome has largely been the same at the majority of tournaments.