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The players and fans showing the Euros is far more important than the CL. |
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#476 |
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Great respective points from Stilton Cheesew and batdude above. I do think when Ronaldo and Messi have gone its difficult to imagine who could replicate their feats. Criticising either of them is utterly churlish and almost as bad as using the record of one of them to undermine the other player.
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#477 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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I'd just like to say that (taking aside England) players at this tournament have shown pretty clearly how much more they care about their country than their clubs. A few clubs must be looking in awe at some of these performances
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#478 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Quote:
I'd just like to say that (taking aside England) players at this tournament have shown pretty clearly how much more they care about their country than their clubs. A few clubs must be looking in awe at some of these performances
Playing badly = not caring This thread get more illuminating by the day! |
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#479 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Taking aside countless other very obvious examples at this tournament, I'd just like to say that if I was president of Real Madrid I'd have watched Kroos' performance last night with raised eye brows..
And yes - even though people on this thread like to ridicule this, it's actually pretty important to "care". Playing for money is never the same as playing for your country. |
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#480 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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Quote:
Taking aside countless other very obvious examples at this tournament, I'd just like to say that if I was president of Real Madrid I'd have watched Kroos' performance last night with raised eye brows..
And yes - even though people on this thread like to ridicule this, it's actually pretty important to "care". Playing for money is never the same as playing for your country. The history of the game is littered with average players who hit a bit of form for a fortnight for a tournament and then went back for where they came. Equally many top players have had bad tournaments. To put this down to caring or to suggest that people who play for big clubs and get paid well care less when doing so shows a total lack of understanding. Really loving your country doesn't make you a better footballer as much as some on this thread would have you believe. Its the same mentality that says England should pick lower league players because they will care about wearing the shirt more! I'm sure the Andorra players love their country it doesn't stop them being absolutely horsed in every game. |
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#481 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Deep Within The Chain Of Evil
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I'd just like to say that (taking aside England) players at this tournament have shown pretty clearly how much more they care about their country than their clubs. A few clubs must be looking in awe at some of these performances
Isn't there anywhere you can talk about a team you actually support? |
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#482 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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With respect that's absolute nonsense.
The history of the game is littered with average players who hit a bit of form for a fortnight for a tournament and then went back for where they came. Equally many top players have had bad tournaments. To put this down to caring or to suggest that people who play for big clubs and get paid well care less when doing so shows a total lack of understanding. Really loving your country doesn't make you a better footballer as much as some on this thread would have you believe. Its the same mentality that says England should pick lower league players because they will care about wearing the shirt more! I'm sure the Andorra players love their country it doesn't stop them being absolutely horsed in every game. I said nothing about money. All German, Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese etc etc players are millionaires, What does money have to do with it?What I said was the opposite. When they play for money at their clubs, some of these players don't show the same desire to win as they do for their countries |
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#483 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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I said nothing about money. All German, Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese etc etc players are millionaires, What does money have to do with it?What I said was the opposite. When they play for money at their clubs, some of these players don't show the same desire to win as they do for their countries |
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#484 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Quote:
Great respective points from Stilton Cheesew and batdude above. I do think when Ronaldo and Messi have gone its difficult to imagine who could replicate their feats. Criticising either of them is utterly churlish and almost as bad as using the record of one of them to undermine the other player.
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#485 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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When you are deciding to asses whether Ronaldo is a great player or not I have said that his club efforts already elevate him to that standing and I have said the International football isn't a "fit for purpose" method of defining greatness in the modern game. We have had this back and forward with you saying that it is.
Ronaldo has won Leagues and Champions League titles with two of the biggest teams in the world. He has won numerous player of the year awards, he has broken goalscoring records along with Messi on an almost weekly basis but none of this was deemed enough for you because of this mythical International football thing hanging over him. First you said that a player had to be successful at International level to be a great, then when people pointed out the players who have failed to win titles at International level or have had the misfortune due to birth to play for lesser countries you changed it to "no one said anything about winning its about taking your country higher than they would go". Ronaldo has captained his country to the final, they may win it they may not. By your own admission Portugal have not been good so by your very own definition, invented by you and based on nothing, Ronaldo has, regardless of how you think he has played overall, been the stark difference between success and failure for this Portugal side. Team captain and scorer of vital goals. Still of course this isn't enough and you look for something else....... Surely, surely you can see how silly you are being? When the overall question of how great a player Ronaldo is and you are looking at his career overall, not only will you have the ever growing list of club achievements you will have two major international finals as well, one of which he captained the team. By any definition of the word that is the very epitome of greatness and its churlish not to be big enough to recognise it. However, Portugal haven't played well and are in the final so my original point back when this started remains - International football is not a good judge of greatness. Your problem is you now either have to agree with me because Portugal have reached the final, or disagree with me and acknowledge the greatness of their captain. Oh dear. You will of course do neither, but people can read and judge for themselves. This time i have took the time myself. Post 24 - Lukaku - If he has a GREAT TOURNAMENT and does it against the BEST TEAMS. Post 31 - The real greats were voted player of the tournament etc. Ronaldo needs to give a SERIES of great performances to do that. Post 52 - I am talking about players who play at their individual best against the best at national tournament level. I am old enough to have seen Pele and co play tournaments. I saw the level of performances they gave to earn their reputation as all time great players. Playing against great teams and putting on truly skltime great performances many times over. Apart from two headers, as important to his team as they were, he has looked like an extremely average player, and that has been against very modest opposition. His performances have not just been a bit below the level of Pele and co, he has been leagues below. To you, two headers, and a load of awful football from him = what they did and deserves to have his name alongside theirs. You carry on insulting Pele, Maradona and co. I'll leave it at that. Btw. Back on topic. Deschamps "France are lifting a nation". Don't ever hear that kind of thing said about clubs. |
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#486 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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You do when Monaco do well.
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#487 |
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 26,163
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A while ago in another thread you accused me of moving the goalposts. I asked you to look through the chelsea supporters thread to see for yourself that you were 100%. You said you wouldn't bother to look.
This time i have took the time myself. Post 24 - Lukaku - If he has a GREAT TOURNAMENT and does it against the BEST TEAMS. Post 31 - The real greats were voted player of the tournament etc. Ronaldo needs to give a SERIES of great performances to do that. Post 52 - I am talking about players who play at their individual best against the best at national tournament level. I am old enough to have seen Pele and co play tournaments. I saw the level of performances they gave to earn their reputation as all time great players. Playing against great teams and putting on truly skltime great performances many times over. Apart from two headers, as important to his team as they were, he has looked like an extremely average player, and that has been against very modest opposition. His performances have not just been a bit below the level of Pele and co, he has been leagues below. To you, two headers, and a load of awful football from him = what they did and deserves to have his name alongside theirs. You carry on insulting Pele, Maradona and co. I'll leave it at that. Btw. Back on topic. Deschamps "France are lifting a nation". Don't ever hear that kind of thing said about clubs. |
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#488 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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So what? It doesn't actually mean anything. Troubles with racism and terrorism, political turmoil, strikes and the rise of the far right will still be there whether the team win on Sunday or not.
![]() ![]() For it to mean anything we now needs magic sands to wish away all of a countries problems. It's lifting the spirits of the country and making people feel happy at a time when they need it most. It's only a sport at the end of the day and therefore only so much, but PSG in a CL final would have no effect at all to the nation as a whole. |
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#489 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 15,843
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Of course it wouldn't, not all French fans support PSG. Countries being bigger than cities isn't really a revelation.
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#490 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 771
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I am old enough to have seen Pele and co play tournaments. I saw the level of performances they gave to earn their reputation as all time great players. Playing against great teams and putting on truly skltime great performances many times over.
Apart from two headers, as important to his team as they were, he has looked like an extremely average player, and that has been against very modest opposition. His performances have not just been a bit below the level of Pele and co, he has been leagues below. To you, two headers, and a load of awful football from him = what they did and deserves to have his name alongside theirs. You carry on insulting Pele, Maradona and co. I'll leave it at that. You bang on about Pele and yes he was a true great but how many games have you seen? You go on about how great he is but you have probably seen less than 10 90 min games, you probably know and have seen very little of his club career. Thats just bad luck because we didn't have the technology to view him week in week out. Now we did, so why should we dismiss the vast majority of a current players career and judge him on only tournaments just because thats all we could use to judge players of the past? You are the one being insulting to any modern player by judging him on 10 games in an entire career just because thats all you saw of your favourites. |
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#491 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,432
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A while ago in another thread you accused me of moving the goalposts. I asked you to look through the chelsea supporters thread to see for yourself that you were 100%. You said you wouldn't bother to look.
This time i have took the time myself. Post 24 - Lukaku - If he has a GREAT TOURNAMENT and does it against the BEST TEAMS. Post 31 - The real greats were voted player of the tournament etc. Ronaldo needs to give a SERIES of great performances to do that. Post 52 - I am talking about players who play at their individual best against the best at national tournament level. I am old enough to have seen Pele and co play tournaments. I saw the level of performances they gave to earn their reputation as all time great players. Playing against great teams and putting on truly skltime great performances many times over. Apart from two headers, as important to his team as they were, he has looked like an extremely average player, and that has been against very modest opposition. His performances have not just been a bit below the level of Pele and co, he has been leagues below. To you, two headers, and a load of awful football from him = what they did and deserves to have his name alongside theirs. You carry on insulting Pele, Maradona and co. I'll leave it at that. Btw. Back on topic. Deschamps "France are lifting a nation". Don't ever hear that kind of thing said about clubs. Yes they will celebrate if they win just as an area will celebrate if a local football club does. I am sure we heard this nonsense during Leicesters run to the title and we will hear again when they have their first Champions League home game how amazing it is for little old Leicester city blah blah blah blah |
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#492 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Because it is emotive nonsense. Just like you hear emotive nonsense like "playing for the badge" or the fans being the "12th man". He was more then likely asked a question and answered it using football talk.
Yes they will celebrate if they win just as an area will celebrate if a local football club does. I am sure we heard this nonsense during Leicesters run to the title and we will hear again when they have their first Champions League home game how amazing it is for little old Leicester city blah blah blah blah Miracle of Bern? Miracle on Ice? Sports is more than just entertainment. It can absolutely have an effect on a country. Why do you think it was so important for Putin to win the Sochi Olympics? |
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#493 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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You have lost the plot. For the last time. Its not two headers that put him on the same level as Pele or whomever you choose from the past. Its an ENTIRE CAREER at the top. Its is YOU that is dismissing his club career, not me. Im just pointing out his vital contributions at International level because YOU have decided for reasons unknown that its so vital.
You bang on about Pele and yes he was a true great but how many games have you seen? You go on about how great he is but you have probably seen less than 10 90 min games, you probably know and have seen very little of his club career. Thats just bad luck because we didn't have the technology to view him week in week out. Now we did, so why should we dismiss the vast majority of a current players career and judge him on only tournaments just because thats all we could use to judge players of the past? You are the one being insulting to any modern player by judging him on 10 games in an entire career just because thats all you saw of your favourites. If the question is - Is Ronaldo one of the all time great club players, then the answer would be 100% yes! But that has never been the question. and you know it! |
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#494 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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So you have never heard of sporting events "lifting" nations and changing the course of a country?
Miracle of Bern? Miracle on Ice? Sports is more than just entertainment. It can absolutely have an effect on a country. Why do you think it was so important for Putin to win the Sochi Olympics? A while ago he said there is no such thing as luck in football. If a team wins it's because they were the better team. A goal scored by Clive Allen was not a gial becsuse the ref thought it hit the stansion at thr back of the net. Not bad luck because it wasn't a goal because the ref said so. Plus many other examples of bad luck. |
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#495 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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So you have never heard of sporting events "lifting" nations and changing the course of a country?
Miracle of Bern? Miracle on Ice? Sports is more than just entertainment. It can absolutely have an effect on a country. Why do you think it was so important for Putin to win the Sochi Olympics? But at the same time the plus points are more often then not hyped up due to the emotive nature of sporting events. |
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#496 |
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Join Date: May 2011
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The don talks about football the way an accountant talks about figures.
A while ago he said there is no such thing as luck in football. If a team wins it's because they were the better team. A goal scored by Clive Allen was not a gial becsuse the ref thought it hit the stansion at thr back of the net. Not bad luck because it wasn't a goal because the ref said so. Plus many other examples of bad luck. |
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#497 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 26,163
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Quote:
So you have never heard of sporting events "lifting" nations and changing the course of a country?
Miracle of Bern? Miracle on Ice? Sports is more than just entertainment. It can absolutely have an effect on a country. Why do you think it was so important for Putin to win the Sochi Olympics? |
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#498 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Oh dear!
![]() ![]() For it to mean anything we now needs magic sands to wish away all of a countries problems. It's lifting the spirits of the country and making people feel happy at a time when they need it most. It's only a sport at the end of the day and therefore only so much, but PSG in a CL final would have no effect at all to the nation as a whole. |
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#499 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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No more or less then a "club" event would lift a certain area.
But at the same time the plus points are more often then not hyped up due to the emotive nature of sporting events. |
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#500 |
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Any actual effects are rather marginal.
And the Miracle on Ice was THEE event that tipped the Cold War |
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I said nothing about money. All German, Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese etc etc players are millionaires, What does money have to do with it?
