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The players and fans showing the Euros is far more important than the CL.


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Old 19-06-2016, 17:16
shaneomax
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and milan too!!
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Old 19-06-2016, 17:17
Nova21
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Thats what makes me laugh about messi, you look at brazilisn ronaldo, a legend of the game and the clubs hes been successful with real barca, inter corinthians and then u look at messi all you see is barcelona a barcelona b barcelona c lmao he will never leave barca. Tbh i could probably manage 10-15 goals a season if i had suarez and neymar with me lolol
What a ridiculous argument. Sorry!
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Old 19-06-2016, 17:19
shaneomax
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What a ridiculous argument. Sorry!
lol its true though messi looks so average sometins when hes playing for argentina ( infac more often than not)
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Old 19-06-2016, 17:29
Stilton Cheesew
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Sad to say, you're another FM who thinks they're really clever and try to score points whenever they can.
As always though, I have a piss easy answer to anything you throw at me. You backed off when I asked you to look through the Chelsea thread to prove I was right and you were wrong.
Your comment about George Best was again almost to simple to bother dealing with and now thus latest failed attempt to trap me.

Sadly, I can now see what kind of poster you are.
I prefer to chat and indeed argue with fm's who are not here to score points over FM's.
You start off in this thread slagging me for starting it, yet you post in it several times.
I'm not going to bother replying to you anymore. However, if you continue to troll and bait I will report you to the mods.
You are bang out of order. Im neither trolling nor baiting, i'm just pointing out the inaccuracies of your opinions. You continually shoot yourself in the foot without me having to do any more than that.

If you just said you like player x cos its your opinion or you like team y cos its your opinion, thats fine, we all have preferences or irrational likes or dislikes but you keep trying to pass your opinions off as fact whilst getting your criteria hopelessly mixed up depending on which player or team you are talking about. That isn't my fault and it is neither trolling nor baiting to point it out.

You bang on about Brazilian Ronaldo (a great player) yet you didn't know he played for Real Madrid. Essentially by your own criteria true "great" players can only come from a handful of countries because in order to be great they have to perform at an International tournament so that rules out 3/4 of the world players straight away. Next not only do they have to do that they have to drag said team along on their own so anyone with the good fortune to be born in one of those countries has to be born in a generation when the rest of the players aren't quite so good. Its virtually impossible to please you and even then you seem to totally misjudge the quality of teams anyway. Again thats not my fault. You walked away from the last thread when your inaccuracies were pointed out and it seems from the last two or three pages here Im at the back of a long long queue to do it again.

Just say who you like and dislike and declare you biases up front because when you try and justify it as being factual it goes really badly wrong.
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Old 19-06-2016, 18:00
Dixon
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You are bang out of order. Im neither trolling nor baiting, i'm just pointing out the inaccuracies of your opinions. You continually shoot yourself in the foot without me having to do any more than that.

If you just said you like player x cos its your opinion or you like team y cos its your opinion, thats fine, we all have preferences or irrational likes or dislikes but you keep trying to pass your opinions off as fact whilst getting your criteria hopelessly mixed up depending on which player or team you are talking about. That isn't my fault and it is neither trolling nor baiting to point it out.

You bang on about Brazilian Ronaldo (a great player) yet you didn't know he played for Real Madrid. Essentially by your own criteria true "great" players can only come from a handful of countries because in order to be great they have to perform at an International tournament so that rules out 3/4 of the world players straight away. Next not only do they have to do that they have to drag said team along on their own so anyone with the good fortune to be born in one of those countries has to be born in a generation when the rest of the players aren't quite so good. Its virtually impossible to please you and even then you seem to totally misjudge the quality of teams anyway. Again thats not my fault. You walked away from the last thread when your inaccuracies were pointed out and it seems from the last two or three pages here Im at the back of a long long queue to do it again.

Just say who you like and dislike and declare you biases up front because when you try and justify it as being factual it goes really badly wrong.
These are my own opinions but some things are facts!
Fact is Ronaldo has never been player of a tournament.
I have repeatedly said a player can still be great regardless of the team he's in. Players do not have to win the big ones to be great - Cruyff never did with Holland- but they still played great.
Also lots of FM's have been on my side on this. Some are more extreme than me, and some admit they too forget some simple things.
The football media have put question marks about his performances in tournaments, as they have done with Messi. There are no question marks against Pele and co. Why is that?
I did not back off from you in the other thread. I answered everything you threw at me. I just got bored going round in circles with you.
There is no question mark
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Old 19-06-2016, 18:53
celesti
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Messi not playing for a lesser side than Barcelona can't be held against him with any logic. No matter how many world class teammates he has there, he became a first team player at a young age and had spent a decade ruling the roost. It takes a very special player to excel in those circumstances, certainly not one coasting along.

Ronaldo's spell at Milan was a bit too late, but he still had a decent scoring rate. He's one of those who'd score even in one leg.
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Old 19-06-2016, 19:13
Dixon
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Messi not playing for a lesser side than Barcelona can't be held against him with any logic. No matter how many world class teammates he has there, he became a first team player at a young age and had spent a decade ruling the roost. It takes a very special player to excel in those circumstances, certainly not one coasting along.

Ronaldo's spell at Milan was a bit too late, but he still had a decent scoring rate. He's one of those who'd score even in one leg.
Yeah, nothing wrong with him staying at Barca.
A move away means only a sideways move at best.
The style of play along with the large pitch suits him, so I see no reason why he'd ever want to leave.

By then, at the end the injuiries had taken a serious toll on Ronaldo.
I gather he was a poor trainer. If he'd looked after himself and worked as hard as Ron 2, and not had those injuries, he might have widely regarded as the best of alltime. He really was that great when fully fit.
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Old 19-06-2016, 19:14
Stilton Cheesew
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These are my own opinions but some things are facts!
Fact is Ronaldo has never been player of a tournament.
I have repeatedly said a player can still be great regardless of the team he's in. Players do not have to win the big ones to be great - Cruyff never did with Holland- but they still played great.
Also lots of FM's have been on my side on this. Some are more extreme than me, and some admit they too forget some simple things.
The football media have put question marks about his performances in tournaments, as they have done with Messi. There are no question marks against Pele and co. Why is that?
I did not back off from you in the other thread. I answered everything you threw at me. I just got bored going round in circles with you.
There is no question mark
Ronaldo not being player of a tournament is not proof that he isn't a great though, not when you look at his individual and team achievements as a whole. Same with Messi. These guys have raised the bar.

However that doesn't mean Cruyff, Pele and Maradona aren't greats - of course they are no one is arguing that. They can all be great players as can Messi and Ronaldo, you dont have to fit a set tick box exercise to be a great. What I would say is that in the modern game you see Messi's every game - the bad with the good, you see Ronaldo's every game - the bad with the good. As much as Pele is a true great, back in those days how many of his games did you watch? How many club games of his have you seen? What was the standard of opposition? In most cases with guys from the 70s and before what we have are highlight reels. Apart from Brazil in the 70 World Cup, dads aside how much of Pele have we actually seen? Its a different world now and we see all the top players all the time so of course we can make a more rounded judgement of their ability. We dont need to rely on a tournament every four years and hope they hit their heights then. We see then in every big game every week.

Thats really the point I'm trying to make.

Messi and Ronaldo have changed what it means to be a striker. They combine beating the numbers of the greatest number 9s with the skills of the greatest number 10s. They are true greats of the game and thats fine - they can do it without affecting the greatness of players of the past.
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Old 19-06-2016, 19:46
FMKK
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That one club though has world class players in every position. At least portuguese ronaldo had success at united aswell. Messi is scared to leave barca.
This is a YouTube comments level taking point.
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Old 19-06-2016, 21:23
Jamesp84
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This is a YouTube comments level taking point.
That highbrow?

I was thinking more 'Daily Star Text Maniacs' personally.
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Old 20-06-2016, 02:48
shaneomax
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This is a YouTube comments level taking point.
Messi is the best player around at the moment there is no question about that, but he is nowhere near the greatest player of all time.. Leave that to legends like Maradona..When you think of what he done at Napoli...yes NAPOLI lol and pretty much carried an average Argentina team to world cup glory in 86, then Messi in comparison looks ever so human (as he usually does for Argentina) Messi is good but he is no Maradona. People need to stop putting Messi on an imaginary pedestal simply because they hate Diego for the hand of God and are looking for a new "greatest player of all time" to knock Maradona off his legendary status. The bottom line is...after that HAND OF GOD.. Maradona scored one of the best.. if not THE greatest goal of all time.. and when he scored that goal he was basically sending the message "sorry for that handball but I can score goals like THIS AMAZING ONE over and over" which is/was probably true. The fact is Messi IS surrounded by world class players at Barca the fact IS Messi never turns up like Maradona did for his country and the fact IS Messi will never be placed on the same pedestal of legends like Maradona or Pele unless he can win a world cup with Argentina (cant seem to even win a Copa America with them either lol) Which he won't because hes good, but hes not a genius like Maradona was. When Messi can get to a world cup final and get man marked by a guy like Lothar Mathaus but still come out on top and win the greatest football prize of all then come back and tell me Messi is all that, he really is not and I am sad people cannot see what REAL football legend is anymore.
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:02
Stilton Cheesew
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A list of things Maradona did does not negate the things that Messi has done. No one has said Maradona isn't a legend but that doesn't mean Messi isn't one of the greats and no amount of exaggerated use of capital letters changes that.
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Old 20-06-2016, 09:18
celesti
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Argentina were not average.
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Old 20-06-2016, 10:15
batdude_uk1
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Would Jamie Vary be better than Maradona seeing as he took Leicester.......yes Leicester City to win the Premier League title??!!

If he helps England to win these European Championships, does that cement his legacy?
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:32
shaneomax
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Argentina were not average.
It is well known that the 86 Argentina team were infact bang average.. Can you name me any world class players from that team?
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:34
shaneomax
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Would Jamie Vary be better than Maradona seeing as he took Leicester.......yes Leicester City to win the Premier League title??!!

If he helps England to win these European Championships, does that cement his legacy?
What a stupid post.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:35
shaneomax
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A list of things Maradona did does not negate the things that Messi has done. No one has said Maradona isn't a legend but that doesn't mean Messi isn't one of the greats and no amount of exaggerated use of capital letters changes that.
Messi will not have the same legacy as Maradona.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:43
Stilton Cheesew
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Messi will not have the same legacy as Maradona.
He already has.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:45
celesti
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It is well known that the 86 Argentina team were infact bang average.. Can you name me any world class players from that team?
It's not well known, it's just the lazy explanation trotted out about a player who doesn't need exaggeration. Leaping from 'bang average' to world class with nothing inbetween is similarly simplistic, so you're probably best sticking with it.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:45
shaneomax
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lol no he doesnt.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:47
shaneomax
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It's not well known, it's just the lazy explanation trotted out about a player who doesn't need exaggeration. Leaping from 'bang average' to world class with nothing inbetween is similarly simplistic, so you're probably best sticking with it.
Its a widely shared opinion.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:50
celesti
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The public are lazy and stupid.

I doubt your mind will be changed, but there's a decent writup here why Argentina a few years after their first World Cup weren't a load of chumps and also why Napoli weren't 'lol'

http://www.averageopposition.com/201...-maradona.html

He's the best player I've ever seen, but no genius does it alone.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:52
shaneomax
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The public are lazy and stupid.
lol only valdano could be argued as good but probably not world class.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:54
Stilton Cheesew
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lol no he doesnt.
Define "legacy" his is the most famous player on the planet. He is known the world over. He has broken records, scored goals, won trophies. He has elevated the role of striker to a different level. By almost any criteria you wish he has become a phenomenon.

To put Messi ahead of Maradona or Maradona ahead of Messi is simply a judgement call and certainly not any sort of foregone conclusion.
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Old 20-06-2016, 12:57
Stilton Cheesew
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lol only valdano could be argued as good but probably not world class.
So Argentina won a World Cup with one genius and only one other "good" player? You need to think about what you are saying here. Maradona didn't defend, he wasn't the keeper, he didn't do the legwork in midfield. You cant win things at the top level with only two good players.
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