It's amazing ,we're only at the group stage, but the excitement is building so much already -where I am anyway- this is why tournaments are great! Come on England!

Yes which is where players should be judged - on what they do every week for a decade not 8 weeks in a decade.

How many club games did you watch Pele play?

And for the millionth time

these levels you keep banging on about are irrelevant in the modern game.

In the long distant past you had to measure players in a different way. But the changes to the game has meant that has changed. Its pretty logical, If something changes then the way of judging success and measuring hoe good thing (someone in this case) has to change as well.

You need to judge players today in today's environment and by today's criteria not by a utterly outdated previous criteria and a environment long since gone.

This is not to say the greats today are any better or worse then those who have gone before. As the game as changed so as the way of judging players has to change. In the future the game will change again and so will the criteria for judging talent it will not change the previous greats in the game nor will it change today's greats place in history.

Just not getting that at all mate to be honest but well done on getting the thread back on topic though you just know that won't last long......

What's the number of Pele games I've seen got to do with any of this.
You know full well there wasn't the coverage of games back then as there is today.
Are you asking if he had bad games? I bet he had lots of them, like every player has during a career.
He scored over 1000 goals. We saw a fraction of them, we see every good moment of today's players.
We missed seeing a massive amount of what he did.

However, even with the limited coverage, the performances and record of him at world cup level
are there for all to see. It's not there fo4 this Ronaldo because it's not there to see, even with the huge coverage we have today. No amount of cameras can invent great performances that haven't happened.

Lamps is an all time Chelsea great! Great T club level, CL winner etc etc etc. Did he do it at this level? No he didn't! The same can be said for Stevie G and many others who were terrific at club level but nowhere near as good at this level.

If you did not see something how do you know it happened?

How many of the over 1000 goals did you see?

How can you judge things if you don't see them to "judge" them?

To judge things you need to be able to put things into a context.

This is not taking away from players like Pele record or ability because they are clearly second to none. But due to the more extensive coverage the club performances for judging players has been the most important factor in judging players.

The more of players we saw on international level meant we judged them on their international careers.

The more we see of players on a club level now means we judge them on their club careers.

The more you see of something is the way you judge anything.

You judge anything be it a footballer or a athlete or a product on the entire picture not just a very small part of the picture. Looking at "international performances" is looking at a very very small part of the career of a footballer and one that is often not as important as his club one

Because you are saying how amazing a player he was and how he was an all time great compared to modern players so Im asking what YOU are basing YOUR opinion on - not someone else historically talking about how amazing he was but what YOU have seen to come to that opinion.

I would wager you have seen Pele play less than 10 full games and the main body of evidence will be the 1970 World Cup when he played in one of the greatest teams ever. Now Im not saying for a second he wasn't one of the greatest ever by the way, Im just discussing the methodology used for you coming up with statements about he good he is compared to the likes of Messi and Ronaldo.







But just a minute. You called Ronaldo a flat track bully but here you are citing Pele's 1000 goals. The reality is we know next to nothing about his club career. How many of those 100 goals were against top teams? How many of those were in friendlies and exhibitions? How many of those were Pele playing against horrendously inferior position? I'll wager you dont really know, but are happy to dismiss the body of work Ronaldo has where he has scored in big games and big opposition with both Man Utd and Real Madrid. Evidence you have actually seen with your own eyes rather than second hand.


So how many games are we talking for Pele? 1958 WC final highlights? 1970 World Cup maybe the whole final and some of the previous games? How many games are we ACTUALLY talking about that is this body of evidence? Put a number on it please.

How many top league games have we seen Ronaldo play in against Barca? How many top league games for Man Utd and how many CL games against top top level opposition. Games where you would have to admit he has dominated and done brilliant things? You could find more in one season than the entire body of evidence for Pele.


Ive never mentioned either of these players. Again though you say "this level". How many top games does a national team have to play to win the Euro's? So far France haven't been challenged and could get an easy game in the next round. In the biggest Euro's in history they could win it having played 2 or 3 decent teams, yet that would be enough for a player to become a legend and for you to continue to talk about "this level". It makes NO sense.

Who exactly changed the criteria for greatness and what time, day, month and year was the change over? You're just making up nonsense to excuse away rubbish performances from today's so called greats.

It's all very well doing it at club level where you can drives a fleet of buses through poor, wide open defences. So much of the defending today is simply atrocious! Even good teams like Barca are ropey.
The defending at this level is vastly superior. It might not be pretty and it's certainly not all that enjoyable to watch, but it's hard nosed, old school defending. Players throwing their bodies in front of the ball, stretching every leg as much as they can to try and stop or deflect shots etc etc etc.

And how is club football suddenly a higher level
Despite the money in the EPL, the quality at the top is average at best.
There's been better Barca teams than the current one. Better RM teams than the current one. Better Portuguese teams, better French teams, better Dutch teams, better Italian teams. The German league is stale. No top notch eastern European teams.
Years ago, we had Maradona and other Argentina world cup winners over here, African world footballers of the year over hear. Fat Ron and Ronaldinho. I would say the standard of club football was better in years gone by.

There is no doubt about the technical ability of this Ronaldo, but performing at the very top level in sport is not, and never has been all, about talent. It's a mental thing!
Jimmy Connors said that there many players of his day who had far greater ability than he had, but they lacked the heart and mentality that he had.
Colin Montgomery won the European order of merit something like 7 times, but he never won a major title. One year he had a golden chance to win the US Open.
On the final hole all he needed was a par to win. He was something like 60 yards from the green with about as easy a chip shot onto the green as anyone could wish for. All he had to do was plonk it onto the green and leave himself with what should have been a very easy couple of puts to win, He shanked his chip shot like someone who'd never played golf before. It was pure nerves that got the better of him.
Brendon Foster admitted he could never perform to his best at the Olympics because he used to vomit before races, such was his nerves.
At a much lower level, Tommy Doc, said the hardest part of being a manger was telling a youngster he wasn't good enough to make it. He said he saw players with all the ability in the world on the training ground, but put them in front of 40, 000 fans and they froze. They could not cope with the pressure.

I can see that Ronaldo is busting a gut to succeed with Portugal. He almost wants it too much. He never looks anyhwere near as relaxed or confident at this level as he does at club level. The hopes and expectations of millions of people back home, is just far, far great to deal with than every day regular football.

The true greats cope with everything, anywhere, anytime, no matter what the opposition is. To say Ronaldo does that is factually incorrect!

Truly great players play great wherever they are.

Suarez transforms ANY team, regardless of whether it's the best team in the world or a bunch of invalids - he will stand out and play well.

Zidane played great wherever he was. You never had to debate or make excuses about any of his performances.

Bale drags a very poor team on his shoulders and has managed to transform it and inspire others to play well around him.

How many tournaments have we seen Ronaldo in? Has he ever played well? It's always the same story and the same excuses. No wonder his teammates stopped giving him the ball - he's completely useless for Portugal and they probably won't progress because in addition to playing rubbish, he missed the penalty as well!

I'm not going to even bother defending the likes of Pele and fat Ron. It's laughable that you even ask for their records at the top level to be defended in any way shape or form. Th stats are their in print.
The stats for C Ron at ALL LEVELS OF FOOTBALL simply pail into insignificance next to those two. Not my opinion, it's a fact!

I think those that saw Pele playing in the World Cups could see just how great he was by his performances. His goal scoring record backs that up, as do the many testimonials from players of that era who saw him, and played against him, or with him.

No one can deny his astonishing ability. He was the Muhammad Ali of football.

I'm not denying his ability for a second, don't think that. I'm questioning someone calling Ronaldo a flat track bully yet citing Pele scoring 1000 goals against who knows who.

The idea that international football is the current best way to judge a player is extremely flawed but that doesn't mean those who excelled there in the past aren't greats. The comparisons aren't ones if really want to make were in not required in order to demonstrate the confusion Dixon seems to have.

Well, I watched Zidane play for club and country. Never had any doubts about him being the best in the world. Why should there be such an incredible dip in form at EVERY tournament from the world's best player?

I don't know but not performing against the likes of Iceland doesn't somehow negate his year on year destruction of every major team across Europe all of whom are of a far higher standard than 99% of international sides.

The dummy round keeper in the 70 world cup was a piece of genius only true great would even think about doing at that level. Completely outragous dummy that is 46 years old and has never been equalled, nevermind bettered.

Deliberately swerve the point for as long as you like.
And it's not about Iceland ( a team that has defended better than many so called top Euro club teams, especially the awful rubbish defending we see in the EPL these days) or just how dire he's been in this particular tournament. It's tournament after tournament he falls flat on his arrogant backside.

There's one more stat that stands out for me and that was his record against Chelsea. At that time the best defence in the whole of Europe.
1 goal in 15 games, and Ashley Cole used to put him in his pocket with absolute ease.

We can go round in circles on this, so no more from me on this particular point.

He a great player obviously, but until he starts performing in a Potugal shirt, he will not even be considered the greatest ever player in his own country let alone be able to dine at the same table as Maradona & Co.

He missed after it though mind you. And the effort from the halfway line, and the header Banks saved. His big highlights involve him not scoring, so he's not all that dissimilar from Euro 2016's Ronaldo when you think about it.

Just looking up that Pele dummy, it's so good it's got its own Wikipedia page!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9_runaround_move

Although you may not be pleased to read it apparently has been bettered by arguably his natural successor

He he to your last line.
True, he didn't score from the dummy, but he hardly fluffed it. At full speed running across the goal he still had the ability to see the defender was moving into exactly the right place to cover the shot. The only way Pele could score was to drag the ball back to the far post. At that speed and angle he had inches to play with and only just missed.
The Banks save was a magnificent piece of football.
On a crap pitch, the pass with the outside of the foot with perfect pace and bend on it right into the path of a steaming Jarzinio, who takes it past his defender with one touch. Then, just as he's about to cross the ball you can see it takes a horrible bounce but Jaz still hits the perfect cross pulling it right back onto the head of the incoming Pele, who nails his header right down at the foot of the post. Incredlibly,
Banks goes from one side of the goal to the other and somehow gets his body down in time to tip the shot over the bar.
As perfect as football can ever be!

For all his highlights in Mexico, my favourite is still his goal in the final. Never understood what people meant when they referred to someone hanging in the air for a header until I saw that.

That particular point was never what this was about.

Lets leave names out of for a moment, it allows personal likes and dislikes to creep in like "arrogant backside". Whether a player is arrogant or not has nothing to do with anything.

If you were a great player in the 50s, 60s and 70s, how were you deemed great? Because you played well against the other best players. When did this happen? At the World Cup. Where else? Nowhere. So players were judged on their World Cup performance and thats fine. That was the platform in which to prove yourself. Now during those World Cups you may only play against another top side in couple of games but it doesn't matter. Its the platform that people could see, it was on tv, it was in the media, the spotlight was on football in the mainstream.

If you are a great player today, using the exact same criteria, there is far far more than the World Cup on which you can be judged. ALL your games an in the mainstream media, they are live on TV, they are on the internet etc etc. You play against top players much more often, the best players are concentrated in a few leagues and those top teams of those leagues play each other regularly in the Champions League. The body of evidence to draw on is far far greater than in the past. Thats why players shouldn't have to be subject to the variances of a World Cup every four years in order to prove themselves - its simply not necessary any more because they come in contact far more often.

Think about it, there are many many average players who have had one off great World Cups - (Schilachi, Oleg Salenko name as many as you like) but there are very few average players who have played consistently well in the Champions League for a decade - thats because over a longer period of time the variances that happen in a World Cup are ironed out.

Let the legends of the past remain legends for what they achieved but lets not falsely dumb down the achievements of the current top players by using a no longer valid criteria to judge them by.

I would completely agree that a player having a 'hot streak' at one tournament should not make him an alltime great. But nobody has ever said that they are!
As has been said many times over, a true all time great is great for his club and country at tournament level. They need to be great at both levels or they are not truly an alltime great. This Ronaldo - great club player, but sadly, a mediocre player at tournament level. There's been lots before him and there'll be lots more after him who fail at this level.
He's still got time in this tournament to really show what he can do, but this is probably his last chance at this level.

Just like Brazil players are in a 'top team' so you are killing your own argument. Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player than Fat Ron.

There's Cristiano dragging his team through with two goals, including one of the finishes of the tournament.