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Brexit - Roaming After We Leave


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Old 28-06-2016, 00:42
technoguy
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The UK has not managed to block a single proposal from the EU Commission passing the Council of Ministers - despite trying 72 times. Also Remainers support a system that discriminates against non-EU citizens. Immigration controls should also apply to Europeans as well.

Controlled immigration for 94% of the worlds population is fine. Controlling it for the other 6% (EU) is racist. Remainer Logic.
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Old 28-06-2016, 01:11
DevonBloke
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That's not what the statistics say: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

Stop blindly believing the press and actually research it.
Not blindly believing anything. Just the impression I got from talking to quite a few of my customers. According to that I'm clearly wrong haha..
But anyway, forget all that and focus on 4% of UKIP supporters voting remain...
WTF???
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Old 28-06-2016, 01:23
CheshireBumpkin
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But anyway, forget all that and focus on 4% of UKIP supporters voting remain...
WTF???
The mind boggles doesn't it? I can only guess at an inability to read the ballot paper. I can't think of any other explanation!
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Old 28-06-2016, 10:17
WelshBluebird
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I would argue that we will still have some say in the initial draughting of regulation, as Norway do. Let's not forget that the UK has constantly been voted down on just about everything as a full member.
We may do, we may not do. What is clear though is that out of the EU we have less of a say than in it. How much that difference is depends on the eventual agreement that gets made.

As for being constantly voted down, I really don't think that is true.
Since 1996 we have been on the "winning" side 2,466 times, the "losing" side 56 times and abstained 70 times. Hardly being constantly voted down.

As for young folk, sorry if I came across as negative but I've been getting an awful lot of 'you old gits have destroyed the UK you are going to die in 2 years and we are going to have to deal with it.' Some even suggesting an upper age on this vote. Anyone of voting age has the right to cast their vote and should be respected for their opinion, young or old.
Any talk about older people dying or not being allowed to be or whatever is way out of order and really isn't something I support.

However I do think the less extreme viewpoints where people are expressing their opinion that the older voters should think of the consequences of their vote on a more long term basis for their children etc have a great deal of merit. General Elections are important but are generally a lot more short term. But a decision like this to leave the EU will continue to have large impacts much further down the line.

In reality the above doesn't matter though. Looking at the turnout, younger people just did not turn up to vote in the same percentage as older people did. Which as a young person is pretty upsetting tbh.
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Old 28-06-2016, 10:22
wb9999
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That's not what the statistics say: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

Stop blindly believing the press and actually research it.
Those statistics are for the UK as a whole. But the facts are very different in the Labour heartlands of the north and midlands, many places had a 60-70%+ vote to leave. These are places where the local Labour MP will generally get over 50% of the vote at a General Election on a similar turnout. At the weekend Caroline Flint pointed out that over 50% of Labour supporters in the heartlands voted to leave. She has highlighted an ex-mining village in her constituency in South Yorkshire where 85% of voters chose to leave. This is a place where almost everyone votes Labour.

And back to mobile phones... the UK Government can easily legislate to make roaming the same as it would have been in the EU.
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Old 28-06-2016, 10:32
WelshBluebird
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And back to mobile phones... the UK Government can easily legislate to make roaming the same as it would have been in the EU.
It could, but why would it? After all one of the claims about leaving the EU was that we could get rid of all of that awful EU legislation and red tape!!
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Old 28-06-2016, 11:10
wb9999
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It could, but why would it? After all one of the claims about leaving the EU was that we could get rid of all of that awful EU legislation and red tape!!
We don't know who will be PM or the business secretary. They will be the ones to decide, not the Vote Leave campaign.
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Old 28-06-2016, 11:57
Faust
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I heard someone on the radio remark this morning that the way the England national team exited Euro 2016 is a 'portent' for what will happen when we exit the EU.

I'm certainly not superstitious but it does have parallels. Still I'm sure when the economy is shot to hell and people start to feel it in their pockets many will still say 'good old Boris'.
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Old 28-06-2016, 12:15
Stereo Steve
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I heard someone on the radio remark this morning that the way the England national team exited Euro 2016 is a 'portent' for what will happen when we exit the EU.
What, everyone will forget about and we'll be allowed to play in the next tournament? Sounds OK to me.

I noticed you managed to get the word 'stupid' in there back along. Well done. James Dyson, Lord Bamford, Tony Benn, Frank Field. All stupid. Bunch of losers.

How about you have some respect for other people's well thought out opinions?
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Old 28-06-2016, 12:21
Stereo Steve
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We may do, we may not do. What is clear though is that out of the EU we have less of a say than in it. How much that difference is depends on the eventual agreement that gets made.

As for being constantly voted down, I really don't think that is true.
Since 1996 we have been on the "winning" side 2,466 times, the "losing" side 56 times and abstained 70 times. Hardly being constantly voted down.



Any talk about older people dying or not being allowed to be or whatever is way out of order and really isn't something I support.

However I do think the less extreme viewpoints where people are expressing their opinion that the older voters should think of the consequences of their vote on a more long term basis for their children etc have a great deal of merit. General Elections are important but are generally a lot more short term. But a decision like this to leave the EU will continue to have large impacts much further down the line.

In reality the above doesn't matter though. Looking at the turnout, younger people just did not turn up to vote in the same percentage as older people did. Which as a young person is pretty upsetting tbh.
I certainly did think about the long term consequences. In the short term it is potentially negative for me as I currently receive agricultural BPS payments for doing not much to be honest. I expect I will lose them. I voted purely for the longer term interest of the UK, for my children and for theirs. I appreciate that that is not an accepted view but I truly believe the UK and probably the EU will be better off in the long term if we go down this road. I do not want my children to grow up in a European superstate with directives handed down from on high from an un-elected commission. I want them to grow up in a UK where we trade freely with our friends around the world and have the freedom to completely replace our government every few years. People died for that dream. I'm not going to be the one who kicks it into the weeds.
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:54
Faust
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What, everyone will forget about and we'll be allowed to play in the next tournament? Sounds OK to me.

I noticed you managed to get the word 'stupid' in there back along. Well done. James Dyson, Lord Bamford, Tony Benn, Frank Field. All stupid. Bunch of losers.

How about you have some respect for other people's well thought out opinions?
I will when I see/read some - most are misguided or are formed through self-interest i.e. the business leaders you mention. When most of the world's top leaders plus the world's leading economists tell you this is not going to end well but you do it anyway, well I put that down to sheer stupidity.

Notice I have now inserted the word "sheer". Bamford hires and fires more often than most people change their underwear (allegedly)
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Old 28-06-2016, 14:03
Faust
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I certainly did think about the long term consequences. In the short term it is potentially negative for me as I currently receive agricultural BPS payments for doing not much to be honest. I expect I will lose them. I voted purely for the longer term interest of the UK, for my children and for theirs. I appreciate that that is not an accepted view but I truly believe the UK and probably the EU will be better off in the long term if we go down this road. I do not want my children to grow up in a European superstate with directives handed down from on high from an un-elected commission. I want them to grow up in a UK where we trade freely with our friends around the world and have the freedom to completely replace our government every few years. People died for that dream. I'm not going to be the one who kicks it into the weeds.
Have you ever considered tribalism? It's what creates conflict and wars. England is a tribe, Germany another tribe etc. etc. Millions died in the last century trying to bring peace to Europe and end tribalism but you want to go back to it? The sooner we stop being little Englander's the sooner we can have a better life.

Maybe your children will thank you for it one day if they accept your values - most won't though.
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Old 28-06-2016, 19:07
Thine Wonk
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Have you ever considered tribalism? It's what creates conflict and wars. England is a tribe, Germany another tribe etc. etc. Millions died in the last century trying to bring peace to Europe and end tribalism but you want to go back to it? The sooner we stop being little Englander's the sooner we can have a better life.

Maybe your children will thank you for it one day if they accept your values - most won't though.
No the UK is a member of NATO, signed up to the ECHR, a member of the commonwealth, will likely remain in the European Economic area and engages in all sorts of political and diplomatic relations. We just want to make our own laws, that's all, I think that's fair.
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Old 28-06-2016, 19:09
Thine Wonk
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Maybe you've forgotten what happens when a political alliance based on non a Democratic system overtakes European politics, it's what .... Only 80 years since the last one?

We want to maintain our political accountability and decide on our future, not have others decide and control it for us. Yes we'll no doubt negotiate single market access with free movement and travel without a passport throughout Europe, but hopefully we will be able to make our own laws and our own politicians empowered, rather that the anti-democratic EU system we've tried to change without success for decades.
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Old 28-06-2016, 21:08
Stereo Steve
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Maybe you've forgotten what happens when a political alliance based on non a Democratic system overtakes European politics, it's what .... Only 80 years since the last one?

We want to maintain our political accountability and decide on our future, not have others decide and control it for us. Yes we'll no doubt negotiate single market access with free movement and travel without a passport throughout Europe, but hopefully we will be able to make our own laws and our own politicians empowered, rather that the anti-democratic EU system we've tried to change without success for decades.
Yep, we'll get on alright. Will be far more acceptable to the UK public. Shame about all the the extreme left wing claptrap that is being spouted at the moment. I can well understand why these people are unhappy that we voted out. They clearly don't like the idea of democracy and would prefer us all to be ruled by a mildly socialist super state. Problem is when it becomes an extreme right wing super state and there is nothing they can do about it. Still, that's not going to happen is it? It's been at least a million years since an extreme right wing party got into power in Europe. So it can't happen again.
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Old 28-06-2016, 21:09
Stereo Steve
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Yep, we'll get on alright. Will be far more acceptable to the UK public. Shame about all the the extreme left wing claptrap that is being spouted at the moment. I can well understand why these people are unhappy that we voted out. They clearly don't like the idea of democracy and would prefer us all to be ruled by a mildly socialist super state. Problem is when it becomes an extreme right wing super state and there is nothing they can do about it. Still, that's not going to happen is it? It's been at least a million years since an extreme right wing party got into power in Europe. So it can't happen again.
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Old 28-06-2016, 21:23
Ashley_Bradbury
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I'm not talking about Russia etc. I'm talking about peace between the sovereign nations of Europe. God help us all if you are the future - please tell me your a senior.
no im 33 and know that no country can attack us without america and the whole of NATO intervening.
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Old 28-06-2016, 22:59
Faust
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No the UK is a member of NATO, signed up to the ECHR, a member of the commonwealth, will likely remain in the European Economic area and engages in all sorts of political and diplomatic relations. We just want to make our own laws, that's all, I think that's fair.
Not that Brexit chestnut. We already make our own laws. The EU has only overridden UK law on a handful of occasions. That wasn't the reason why most voters voted to come out of the EU. The accepted reason by both sides was immigration - which isn't about to change.

The Brexiteers are now resiling from their expressed position on immigration and are stating that it will have to continue on one form or another as the price for staying in the single market. We will now have to accept the rules of the single market but won't be able to influence them. We have become a global laughing stock.
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Old 28-06-2016, 23:02
Faust
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no im 33 and know that no country can attack us without america and the whole of NATO intervening.
What just like we have intervened to help the Ukraine. Where are you getting this stuff from?
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Old 28-06-2016, 23:05
Faust
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Yep, we'll get on alright. Will be far more acceptable to the UK public. Shame about all the the extreme left wing claptrap that is being spouted at the moment. I can well understand why these people are unhappy that we voted out. They clearly don't like the idea of democracy and would prefer us all to be ruled by a mildly socialist super state. Problem is when it becomes an extreme right wing super state and there is nothing they can do about it. Still, that's not going to happen is it? It's been at least a million years since an extreme right wing party got into power in Europe. So it can't happen again.
You have got to have lifted your post straight from the Sun or Daily Wail right?
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Old 28-06-2016, 23:13
Ashley_Bradbury
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What just like we have intervened to help the Ukraine. Where are you getting this stuff from?
Wow, they joined ? O right no.
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Old 29-06-2016, 07:52
Ashley_Bradbury
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What just like we have intervened to help the Ukraine. Where are you getting this stuff from?
The Ukraine isn't in nato
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Old 29-06-2016, 07:54
Thine Wonk
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Not that Brexit chestnut. We already make our own laws. The EU has only overridden UK law on a handful of occasions. That wasn't the reason why most voters voted to come out of the EU. The accepted reason by both sides was immigration - which isn't about to change.

The Brexiteers are now resiling from their expressed position on immigration and are stating that it will have to continue on one form or another as the price for staying in the single market. We will now have to accept the rules of the single market but won't be able to influence them. We have become a global laughing stock.
That's a lie, we make some laws, but the many of new laws and regulations come from the EU whether we like it or not. Nobody but an unelected panel can propose new EU laws and our only option for not accepting them as law is a 1 in 17 vote aside from veto's which don't apply in many circumstances.

When it comes to EU roaming our politicians didn't make the law that put every UK citizens phone bill up, despite whether the customer travels to the EU, to subside people that do use their phone a lot in the EU.

When the EU starts passing more internet laws and stuff in a couple of years you lot will soon have the moment when the lightbulb comes on and you realise we've slowly given away our vote and democracy to a distant group of people who do what they like with no way to change the political system as a group of citizens. If the EU continues to expand it's grasp, then they will take on more and more control, and what if the people in positions of power become corrupt or increasingly become something we don't want? They aren't elected, they can't be de-elected, there is no mechanism to repeal laws and literally no democratic system around law making. A lot of the laws come as a result of big businesses lobbying the EU behind closed doors.

You'll see.....

Europe will see in years to come......

Thank goodness we won the vote.......
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Old 29-06-2016, 08:14
omnidirectional
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No the UK is a member of NATO, signed up to the ECHR, a member of the commonwealth, will likely remain in the European Economic area and engages in all sorts of political and diplomatic relations. We just want to make our own laws, that's all, I think that's fair.
If we remain in the EEA like Norway and Iceland (and we'll almost certainly have to, to protect banks and businesses) the UK will still be subject so EU law in certain areas, we just won't have any influence over it. Norway must implement around 20%-30% of EU laws and allow freedom of movement in order to access the single market.

Those voting leave to "get our democracy back" or "stop immigration" will be left disappointed, and have probably just made things even less democratic by removing our say and influence over the EU.
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:09
Stereo Steve
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If we remain in the EEA like Norway and Iceland (and we'll almost certainly have to, to protect banks and businesses) the UK will still be subject so EU law in certain areas, we just won't have any influence over it. Norway must implement around 20%-30% of EU laws and allow freedom of movement in order to access the single market.

Those voting leave to "get our democracy back" or "stop immigration" will be left disappointed, and have probably just made things even less democratic by removing our say and influence over the EU.
Norway are consulted on EU regulation. They may not have a final vote but I think you'll find that ours never did us much good anyway.

I totally agree that many Brexit voters are going to be disappointed that we are not building a wall, tying union jack hankerchiefs around our heads and going off to Margate for a lovely whites only holiday but those people are idiots. Me, I was looking to vote remain until I did a LOT of research and listened to a lot of wise people from all political parties and in the end had to vote leave. I simply could not accept the creeping takeover of member states. It'll be income tax next, you'll see. Bit by bit they are being absorbed into this mess. The EU is like a Boa Constrictor. You breathe in and they take up the gap.

We will be EEA / EFTA and we will access the single market and we will still have free movement. We will still pay a fee to access the market which is fair enough. Just like eBay or Amazon charge a fee to sell on theirs. No problem with that. No problem with free movement. If our youngsters won't pick fruit, we need someone who will. 99% of these seasonal workers come here, carry out a job we need doing and take their pay home. That is fine. Very few attempt to get a council house and claim £40k a week in benefits. If most of the UK youth are too classy or lazy to vote, never mind work, good luck to anyone who wants to earn the money.

That is my hope but there are so many more benefits. We get to cut out own deals with any other country around the globe, outside of EU fumbling. We can sell lamb to Japan or basil to Brazil or condoms to Canada and pay the EU nothing. We no longer have the Supreme Court overseeing our own justice system. We get to set our VAT. We will no longer be responsible for the debts of others and there is much, much more. At the end of the day, if the single market goes belly up, we won't be caught up in it too much.

It's a shame that idiots voted leave for racist reasons. I fully accept that this element of the vote probably tipped the balance and that is depressing. But it doesn't mean everyone who voted leave is a racist or a bigot or ignorant. I voted with a clear idea of what I was voting for and I'm a bit fed up with people suggesting I'm an ignorant bigot. I'm not and as far as I can see, most of the hysteria comes from people who don't actually have a clue what they are on about. Despite the insults, I would no include Mr Faust in that category.
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