[Stereo Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

You have got to have lifted your post straight from the Sun or Daily Wail right?

No. We must look at the lessons of history. Did Hitler gain power through a majority vote? Did the people of Germany actually vote him in? Or did he get in through the mechanisms of a truly undemocratic machine which had all the best intentions built into it but created a monster that it's own people couldn't stop until it was too late?

I suppose you'll accuse me of being anti-German next but I'm not. That man and his dodgy crew got in because the structure of that government was fundamentally undemocratic, even though it appeared to be the opposite. The Germans never voted for Hitler in any numbers. He seized power through a flawed system and a few bad mistakes by a few people who had too much influence. The rest, sadly, is history.

[CheshireBumpkin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

Norway are consulted on EU regulation. They may not have a final vote but I think you'll find that ours never did us much good anyway.

I totally agree that many Brexit voters are going to be disappointed that we are not building a wall, tying union jack hankerchiefs around our heads and going off to Margate for a lovely whites only holiday but those people are idiots. Me, I was looking to vote remain until I did a LOT of research and listened to a lot of wise people from all political parties and in the end had to vote leave. I simply could not accept the creeping takeover of member states. It'll be income tax next, you'll see. Bit by bit they are being absorbed into this mess. The EU is like a Boa Constrictor. You breathe in and they take up the gap.

We will be EEA / EFTA and we will access the single market and we will still have free movement. We will still pay a fee to access the market which is fair enough. Just like eBay or Amazon charge a fee to sell on theirs. No problem with that. No problem with free movement. If our youngsters won't pick fruit, we need someone who will. 99% of these seasonal workers come here, carry out a job we need doing and take their pay home. That is fine. Very few attempt to get a council house and claim £40k a week in benefits. If most of the UK youth are too classy or lazy to vote, never mind work, good luck to anyone who wants to earn the money.

That is my hope but there are so many more benefits. We get to cut out own deals with any other country around the globe, outside of EU fumbling. We can sell lamb to Japan or basil to Brazil or condoms to Canada and pay the EU nothing. We no longer have the Supreme Court overseeing our own justice system. We get to set our VAT. We will no longer be responsible for the debts of others and there is much, much more. At the end of the day, if the single market goes belly up, we won't be caught up in it too much.

It's a shame that idiots voted leave for racist reasons. I fully accept that this element of the vote probably tipped the balance and that is depressing. But it doesn't mean everyone who voted leave is a racist or a bigot or ignorant. I voted with a clear idea of what I was voting for and I'm a bit fed up with people suggesting I'm an ignorant bigot. I'm not and as far as I can see, most of the hysteria comes from people who don't actually have a clue what they are on about. Despite the insults, I would no include Mr Faust in that category.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of that and still would have liked a majority remain vote - I applaud you for the reasoned and sensible way you've put your view across here. Not enough of that around at the moment.

The stark reality is that whichever side of the debate we sit on, the decision's not going to change and we need to roll our sleeves up and get on with it now.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley_Bradbury

The Ukraine isn't in nato

Correct but are you aware NATO made a commitment to protect them from aggression? That'll be a no then.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

That's a lie, we make some laws, but the many of new laws and regulations come from the EU whether we like it or not. Nobody but an unelected panel can propose new EU laws and our only option for not accepting them as law is a 1 in 17 vote aside from veto's which don't apply in many circumstances.

When it comes to EU roaming our politicians didn't make the law that put every UK citizens phone bill up, despite whether the customer travels to the EU, to subside people that do use their phone a lot in the EU.

When the EU starts passing more internet laws and stuff in a couple of years you lot will soon have the moment when the lightbulb comes on and you realise we've slowly given away our vote and democracy to a distant group of people who do what they like with no way to change the political system as a group of citizens. If the EU continues to expand it's grasp, then they will take on more and more control, and what if the people in positions of power become corrupt or increasingly become something we don't want? They aren't elected, they can't be de-elected, there is no mechanism to repeal laws and literally no democratic system around law making. A lot of the laws come as a result of big businesses lobbying the EU behind closed doors.

You'll see.....

Europe will see in years to come......

Thank goodness we won the vote.......

You are making the classic mistake of mixing up your apples with your pears. Still Brexiteers never let simple things like facts get in the way of a good headline.

There are laws and there is consumer legislation - they are not the same thing. When you join a club, any club there are rules and regulations which we all agree to abide by. Over time those rules and regulations may be altered refined etc. to take account of events or changes in society.

For the last forty years or so the UK has never wanted to abide by the rules of the EU. This attitude in the main has been whipped up by the Murdoch and right wing press and the little englander party (conservative factions). The little englanders still think we are a world power (we're not) and still yearn for empire.

If you're honest can you ever remember a headline in praise of the EU because I certainly can't.

Murdoch has always been hostile to the EU because of the constraints it puts on his empire building ambitions and yet again has used the British electorate to achieve his goal.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

Norway are consulted on EU regulation. They may not have a final vote but I think you'll find that ours never did us much good anyway.

I totally agree that many Brexit voters are going to be disappointed that we are not building a wall, tying union jack hankerchiefs around our heads and going off to Margate for a lovely whites only holiday but those people are idiots. Me, I was looking to vote remain until I did a LOT of research and listened to a lot of wise people from all political parties and in the end had to vote leave. I simply could not accept the creeping takeover of member states. It'll be income tax next, you'll see. Bit by bit they are being absorbed into this mess. The EU is like a Boa Constrictor. You breathe in and they take up the gap.

We will be EEA / EFTA and we will access the single market and we will still have free movement. We will still pay a fee to access the market which is fair enough. Just like eBay or Amazon charge a fee to sell on theirs. No problem with that. No problem with free movement. If our youngsters won't pick fruit, we need someone who will. 99% of these seasonal workers come here, carry out a job we need doing and take their pay home. That is fine. Very few attempt to get a council house and claim £40k a week in benefits. If most of the UK youth are too classy or lazy to vote, never mind work, good luck to anyone who wants to earn the money.

That is my hope but there are so many more benefits. We get to cut out own deals with any other country around the globe, outside of EU fumbling. We can sell lamb to Japan or basil to Brazil or condoms to Canada and pay the EU nothing. We no longer have the Supreme Court overseeing our own justice system. We get to set our VAT. We will no longer be responsible for the debts of others and there is much, much more. At the end of the day, if the single market goes belly up, we won't be caught up in it too much.

It's a shame that idiots voted leave for racist reasons. I fully accept that this element of the vote probably tipped the balance and that is depressing. But it doesn't mean everyone who voted leave is a racist or a bigot or ignorant. I voted with a clear idea of what I was voting for and I'm a bit fed up with people suggesting I'm an ignorant bigot. I'm not and as far as I can see, most of the hysteria comes from people who don't actually have a clue what they are on about. Despite the insults, I would no include Mr Faust in that category.

I would just like to know which knowledgable people you listened to because from where I was sitting the entire debate was filled with nothing but lies and half-truths and I include both sides in that. I would say however the Brexit camp lies were by far the worst.

I voted to join the EU forty odd years ago and I have followed it's fortunes and it's cockups ever since.

Your post speaks of a post EU utopia and whilst much of what you write may sound okay in the main it's really not going to happen. Are you aware that some Brexit politicians are now looking at 'Brexit lite' or even not invoking article 50 at all. There's even talk of a second referendum. Why? well many politicians and business people are now looking at the enormity of what has happened and the sheer complexity of unpicking forty years of legislation and are seriously beginning to question whether at the end of the day we will lose more than we gain. So to quote and old saying 'it's not over until the fat lady sings'.

[nigelbb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley_Bradbury

How old are you? its NATO that has kept the peace. giving credit to the EU is ridiculous.

Encouraging democracy in the states of the former Warsaw Pact by accepting all the Eastern European countries into the EU with freedom of movement for their citizens has done more for peace than NATO ever will.

[nigelbb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by technoguy

The UK has not managed to block a single proposal from the EU Commission passing the Council of Ministers - despite trying 72 times. Also Remainers support a system that discriminates against non-EU citizens. Immigration controls should also apply to Europeans as well.

Controlled immigration for 94% of the worlds population is fine. Controlling it for the other 6% (EU) is racist. Remainer Logic.

It's not racists at all. You obviously don't understand the way the single market & free movement of labour works. For the single market to work correctly it is as illogical to control someone moving from Warsaw to London to find work as it is to prevent someone moving from Liverpool to London or Liverpool to Warsaw.

[Stereo Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

I would just like to know which knowledgable people you listened to because from where I was sitting the entire debate was filled with nothing but lies and half-truths and I include both sides in that. I would say however the Brexit camp lies were by far the worst.

I voted to join the EU forty odd years ago and I have followed it's fortunes and it's cockups ever since.

Your post speaks of a post EU utopia and whilst much of what you write may sound okay in the main it's really not going to happen. Are you aware that some Brexit politicians are now looking at 'Brexit lite' or even not invoking article 50 at all. There's even talk of a second referendum. Why? well many politicians and business people are now looking at the enormity of what has happened and the sheer complexity of unpicking forty years of legislation and are seriously beginning to question whether at the end of the day we will lose more than we gain. So to quote and old saying 'it's not over until the fat lady sings'.

Tony Benn. I'd listen to him over you all day long. You seem keen on slogans which is never a good look. You think we are not actually going to exit the EU now? I thought Ms. Abbott was deluded but even she accepts that it's done. If you are really one of the 'second ref' lot then there is no hope for you. You better get your Jeremy Corbyn jumper on and go down with his crappy ship.

[Ashley_Bradbury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

Correct but are you aware NATO made a commitment to protect them from aggression? That'll be a no then.

I cant find a single quote that verifies that.

[wb9999]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

Your post speaks of a post EU utopia and whilst much of what you write may sound okay in the main it's really not going to happen. Are you aware that some Brexit politicians are now looking at 'Brexit lite' or even not invoking article 50 at all. There's even talk of a second referendum. Why? well many politicians and business people are now looking at the enormity of what has happened and the sheer complexity of unpicking forty years of legislation and are seriously beginning to question whether at the end of the day we will lose more than we gain. So to quote and old saying 'it's not over until the fat lady sings'.

Full Brexit will happen, whatever MPs may wish. They are scared that if they ignore the vote many people who voted to leave will switch to UKIP at the next election. Even if only 50% of leave voters switch to UKIP it may be enough for UKIP to get into Government as part of a coalition and Labour will be wiped out in England like they were in Scotland. UKIP in Government would likely see a total separation from the EU with a very distant and frosty relationship.

The French and German's will soften their stance once negotiations start. They stand to lose a significant number of jobs if trade tariffs are imposed on exports to the UK, and both countries have elections next year. The trade unions and business organisations in both countries are already warning against trade tariffs on exports to the UK.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

Tony Benn. I'd listen to him over you all day long. You seem keen on slogans which is never a good look. You think we are not actually going to exit the EU now? I thought Ms. Abbott was deluded but even she accepts that it's done. If you are really one of the 'second ref' lot then there is no hope for you. You better get your Jeremy Corbyn jumper on and go down with his crappy ship.

Oh dear me! Jeremy Corbyn is one reason why I will never vote Labour again whilst he is in charge. The Labour party that I know is no longer alive I'm sorry to say as it's been hijacked by momentum idealists who quite frankly have their heads up their backsides. Please don't pigeon hole me with that barmy army.

Tony Benn was a great orator though he wasn't always right, in fact far from it.

I'm sure you will be aware of today's headlines with Obama warning that investment in the UK is likely to be put on hold for the foreseeable future. Then we have the Japanese prime minister holding talks today with the UK regarding trade and urging some sort of compromise to be found. China is said to be deeply unhappy about the UK decision and they have serious money invested in this country. We also have scientist warning that free movement of people is vital for UK science.

On top of that we have the Gove email cockup i.e. an email sent from Gove's wife yesterday which she accidentally copied in to a member of the public. The email mentions Boris and whether he will be acceptable to Murdoch - and you think I'm making all this up then do you? Murdoch has been behind the plot to get the UK out of the EU for as long as I can remember.

Whatever many leavers think they voted for last week much of it isn't likely to happen - if at all.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb9999

Full Brexit will happen, whatever MPs may wish. They are scared that if they ignore the vote many people who voted to leave will switch to UKIP at the next election. Even if only 50% of leave voters switch to UKIP it may be enough for UKIP to get into Government as part of a coalition and Labour will be wiped out in England like they were in Scotland. UKIP in Government would likely see a total separation from the EU with a very distant and frosty relationship.

The French and German's will soften their stance once negotiations start. They stand to lose a significant number of jobs if trade tariffs are imposed on exports to the UK, and both countries have elections next year. The trade unions and business organisations in both countries are already warning against trade tariffs on exports to the UK.

UKIP are a spent force in the UK if they ever were a force in the first place. We only had the referendum because at the time it was promised UKIP were riding high in the polls and the Tories thought they might lose some core support to UKIP - it never happened but DC had already been manoeuvred into promising the referendum.

I don't doubt there will be a Brexit of sorts but it won't end up being the one the racists and little englanders voted for.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley_Bradbury

I cant find a single quote that verifies that.

It wasn't in the Sun

[wb9999]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

UKIP are a spent force in the UK if they ever were a force in the first place. We only had the referendum because at the time it was promised UKIP were riding high in the polls and the Tories thought they might lose some core support to UKIP - it never happened but DC had already been manoeuvred into promising the referendum.

I don't doubt there will be a Brexit of sorts but it won't end up being the one the racists and little englanders voted for.

4 million votes in the election is not exactly a spent force.

The mistake was the thought that UKIP were a threat to the Tories, but in reality they are a bigger threat to Labour in the north and Midlands. And that threat is greater now with more than 50% of labour supporters in the north voting for Brexit. If Labour ignore the wish of the leave voters they will see a lot of their support switch to UKIP, wiping out Labour. The next 5 years are going to be a very difficult period for Labour.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wb9999

4 million votes in the election is not exactly a spent force.

The mistake was the thought that UKIP were a threat to the Tories, but in reality they are a bigger threat to Labour in the north and Midlands. And that threat is greater now with more than 50% of labour supporters in the north voting for Brexit. If Labour ignore the wish of the leave voters they will see a lot of their support switch to UKIP, wiping out Labour. The next 5 years are going to be a very difficult period for Labour.

Well if the morons and racists I listened to over the long long referendum campaign are typical Labour voters then good riddance. Talk about misinformed and misguided. You have to wonder just how much of the education people receive actually sinks in.

[Stereo Steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJcuKfcxo9w

You have to stop assuming that people voted leave because they are morons. This man is not a moron.

[de525ma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJcuKfcxo9w

You have to stop assuming that people voted leave because they are morons. This man is not a moron.

Daniel Hannan? The one who went on US TV telling them that universal healthcare is a disaster? He's a moron.

[Gigabit]

The man who backtracked literally hours after the leave vote?

[Faust]

Well, you heard it hear first. re: my earlier post. Boris is out - not standing, Gove has stabbed him in the back. The rumour mill at Westminster is saying that Murdoch was behind this as he didn't think Boris was capable of delivering the Brexit Rupert wants.

Politicians are such a loyal bunch.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJcuKfcxo9w

You have to stop assuming that people voted leave because they are morons. This man is not a moron.

I'm afraid you're posting of that link has pitched you're credibility rating into negative territory Steve.

[Stereo Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

I'm afraid you're posting of that link has pitched you're credibility rating into negative territory Steve.

In your view and your view is in the minority, no matter how clever you assume yourself to be. By the way, it's 'your', not 'you're' on both occasions. As you said, stupid is as stupid does.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

In your view and your view is in the minority, no matter how clever you assume yourself to be. By the way, it's 'your', not 'you're' on both occasions. As you said, stupid is as stupid does.

It's also 'here' not 'hear' as in my other post. However, I've written a couple of the posts on my tablet which tends to auto correct 'what it' thinks I'm trying to say rather than the reality. But hey if grammar is my worst fault then I can shoulder that.

I'd rather not be in a majority that includes racists bigots and morons thank you very much. I expect you will be gutted now team Boris is out.

Oh BTW the Supreme Court is an English Court not European re: your earlier post.

[Stereo Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

It's also 'here' not 'hear' as in my other post. However, I've written a couple of the posts on my tablet which tends to auto correct 'what it' thinks I'm trying to say rather than the reality. But hey if grammar is my worst fault then I can shoulder that.

I'd rather not be in a majority that includes racists bigots and morons thank you very much. I expect you will be gutted now team Boris is out.

Nope. Boris was never PM material. I have no idea why anyone would think he was. Not sure I'm pleased with the choice we have but there you go. Was hoping DC was true to his word and would stay on but I guess in reality, he had to step aside. There you go. Short term party leadership is not my concern and you really must stop jumping to conclusions and using divisive terms. It's not helpful. I'm sure there were plenty of racist bigots and morons on the Remain side as well.

Whatever government with whatever leader we have for the next few years, we can boot the lot if we see fit in good time. We are in extraordinary times so we must expect some flux. The future of our great country is secured and that is all that matters.

[Faust]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereo Steve

Nope. Boris was never PM material. I have no idea why anyone would think he was. Not sure I'm pleased with the choice we have but there you go. Was hoping DC was true to his word and would stay on but I guess in reality, he had to step aside. There you go. Short term party leadership is not my concern and you really must stop jumping to conclusions and using divisive terms. It's not helpful. I'm sure there were plenty of racist bigots and morons on the Remain side as well.

Whatever government with whatever leader we have for the next few years, we can boot the lot if we see fit in good time. We are in extraordinary times so we must expect some flux. The future of our great country is secured and that is all that matters.

Secured by the likes of Rupert Murdoch - you think? That is making a pact with the devil. The electorate only have the illusion of independent choice - sadly. I'm not even convinced when you examine closely our history we have that much to feel 'great' about do you?

[Stereo Steve]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust

Secured by the likes of Rupert Murdoch - you think? That is making a pact with the devil. The electorate only have the illusion of independent choice - sadly. I'm not even convinced when you examine closely our history we have that much to feel 'great' about do you?

Ok, I'm leaving this now. You are one of those. Believe too much that you read in your selected press. We have much to be proud of and much to be ashamed of. Hopefully we have learned lessons from both. Must be depressing living in a world of conspiracy and evil. Good luck with the future. Sorry I ruined it for you. The end.