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Should Rooney still be England captain?


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Old 28-06-2016, 21:14
Sick Bullet
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he should be left at home never mind captain.
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Old 28-06-2016, 21:27
codeblue
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him being captain made him undropable

so when we had better players in his position, we had to move him to accommodate him.

poor tactics from roy there.
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Old 28-06-2016, 21:35
allafix
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I don't think moving Rooney to midfield was a bad idea. He did very well in the first two games. He's been playing in that role for Man U most of the season. But I agree that the team should not be put out of balance to keep him in the side at all costs.

Presumably whoever takes over as manager will rethink the captaincy. It needs to be someone who is an automatic pick and Rooney isn't that any more.
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Old 29-06-2016, 01:24
batdude_uk1
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The new manager or head coach should pick his own person as captain, personally I like my captain to either be a CB, or someone in the heart of midfield.
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Old 29-06-2016, 01:49
Angie_Plasty
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Of course he should stay as captain. He's the bedrock on which our success is built.

Once he gets into his forties he should drop back into defence, before finally becoming goalkeeper.
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Old 29-06-2016, 06:06
snafu65
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Wouldn't be surprised if he retired from international football before the WC qualifiers start, certainly before the actual tournament starts in 2 years.
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Old 29-06-2016, 07:19
Meols
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Personally I think we've reached the end of the road for Rooney in an England shirt full stop. He did play OK against Russia but was hardly put under pressure in possession at any stage. It was a mistake to take him off. In the other games he was slow and ponderous and Iceland seemed to keep shutting him down with ease. One overhit cross after another. Shots screwing wide of the post and never really looking like scoring.

He's been a fantastic England servant but I think he's essentially just taking a place in the team in midfield that could now go elsewhere. I'd never have played him there anyway, far rather he'd played in and around Kane or whoever else was upfront.

Loads of other things wrong with the team, obviously. You'd probably have to make Chris Smalling captain now as his place appears to be the one least threatened, given Hart is now under intense scrutiny if probably still the likely first choice. Other possible contenders are either under pressure for their place and/or simply aren't captaincy material.
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:03
NiteOwl12
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@Meols

Overwhelmingly in agreement with you, just a brief comment re captaincy post-Rooney.

Neither Cahill (who I believe is the current vice-captain) nor Smalling have given me the slightest indication they are capable of organising the defence, never mind take on the role of captain.

I would elect for a match by match appointment until an obvious candidate emerges. I currently think, much to my own surprise, in the medium term Dele Alli may prove to be that candidate. I was impressed with the way he did not succumb to any perceived provocation in this tournament; a fear that he might I shared with many.
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:09
Nova21
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Agree with the above two posts re Rooney.
As regards next captain.. No need for permanent appointment any time soon
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:16
Stilton Cheesew
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Agree with Meol and Nite Owl. There are question marks over Rooney in general for both club and country and I think he would do himself a favour if he removed the captaincy from the equation altogether and stood down.

That said I don't think fans should ever give a player a hard time for having a desire to continue playing or captaining his country. We seem quick to claim that players don't care and aren't committed so we shouldn't be too hasty to dismiss those that clearly do display the desire to play.

Rooney in theory could have a future in midfield or attack but his biggest problem right now is his consistency. One minute he is pinging 30 yard balls across the pitch with inch perfect accuracy yet the next he is falling over his own feet!
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Old 29-06-2016, 09:37
NiteOwl12
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@Stilton Cheesew

Completely agree with you. I have never gone along with the notion our players don't care enough (granted they don't blub during the national anthem, nor do I want them to), usually accompanied with something along the lines of 'because they are paid so much, it doesn't matter to them.' Regarding Rooney, I think he messed up in the match against Iceland - after putting in what I thought were man of the match performances in the first two games against Russia and Wales - not because he didn't care enough, but because he cared too much. That isn't a compliment, of course, it's a criticism of a different order, as he was in my view unable to control his emotions, so his nerves became too jangly hence the numerous wayward passes and failures to control the ball - totally uncharacteristic for him.
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Old 29-06-2016, 14:00
Meols
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@Meols

Overwhelmingly in agreement with you, just a brief comment re captaincy post-Rooney.

Neither Cahill (who I believe is the current vice-captain) nor Smalling have given me the slightest indication they are capable of organising the defence, never mind take on the role of captain.

I would elect for a match by match appointment until an obvious candidate emerges. I currently think, much to my own surprise, in the medium term Dele Alli may prove to be that candidate. I was impressed with the way he did not succumb to any perceived provocation in this tournament; a fear that he might I shared with many.
I don't have a huge strong feeling about Smalling, I just think its natural when you contemplate a captain standing down to discuss his replacement and if you take those sure to be picked when there are no obvious natural leaders the options significantly reduce.

In the absence of an alternative you could as an interim measure apply the old Italian thing of most capped player.

On Alli he did have a flashpoint against Wales with Aaron Ramsey, but I'd trade him having the dark side if it meant slightly more impact in the tournament, because as it happened I thought he had a poor series. I suppose its asking a lot for a 19 year old to carry a midfield right through a tournament. Personally I'd question him being an automatic choice at present though I suppose a better manager could make proper use of him. Only when established could you even consider him as captaincy material.
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Old 29-06-2016, 16:00
NiteOwl12
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I don't have a huge strong feeling about Smalling, I just think its natural when you contemplate a captain standing down to discuss his replacement and if you take those sure to be picked when there are no obvious natural leaders the options significantly reduce.

In the absence of an alternative you could as an interim measure apply the old Italian thing of most capped player.

On Alli he did have a flashpoint against Wales with Aaron Ramsey, but I'd trade him having the dark side if it meant slightly more impact in the tournament, because as it happened I thought he had a poor series. I suppose its asking a lot for a 19 year old to carry a midfield right through a tournament. Personally I'd question him being an automatic choice at present though I suppose a better manager could make proper use of him. Only when established could you even consider him as captaincy material.
All fair comment. I think like most people I am just kicking ideas around and trying to think outside the box, hence toying with Alli as a future captain. In my mind he is already an established part of the England team, even if that is quite a leap on my part.

Frankly who is captain is a trivial matter compared to identifying the reasons why England performs so poorly internationally considering the resources available. When Germany had a bad time internationally there was a root and branch examination of the sport and I believe they they came up with rather more impressive and complex answers than Roy Hodgson or Big Sam.

Of course it may be Mike Bassett, England Manager isn't a comedy film after all, but a documentary.
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Old 29-06-2016, 16:02
Meols
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But the next England captain is not a trivial matter for the purpose of this specific thread. There are plenty of other threads to look at and discuss what went wrong.
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Old 29-06-2016, 16:12
NiteOwl12
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But the next England captain is not a trivial matter for the purpose of this specific thread. There are plenty of other threads to look at and discuss what went wrong.
I shall consider myself chastised.
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Old 29-06-2016, 16:40
wolvesdavid
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Of course it may be Mike Bassett, England Manager isn't a comedy film after all, but a documentary.
It was based on the documentry Impossible Job.
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Old 29-06-2016, 17:47
NiteOwl12
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It was based on the documentry Impossible Job.
Well, well, well, I never realised that and I have watched both many times. Sometimes I don't see what is staring me in the face.
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Old 29-06-2016, 18:15
Meols
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I shall consider myself chastised.
It wasn't intended as a dig, apologies, I'm quite new here, all I was surmising was if you felt sufficiently concerned to comment on the matter its surprising you might pass it off as "trivial".

I think its worthy of discussion and a good discussion it is too.
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Old 29-06-2016, 19:25
Stilton Cheesew
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It wasn't intended as a dig, apologies, I'm quite new here, all I was surmising was if you felt sufficiently concerned to comment on the matter its surprising you might pass it off as "trivial".

I think its worthy of discussion and a good discussion it is too.
I think the degree to which it matters is dependant on the make up of the team. If you have a team with the likes of Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard etc then who wears the armband doesn't really matter as you have many leader on the pitch who can pull the team through a difficult situation. In these instances I would be in agreement with the "give it to the guy with the most caps" supporters.

However, looking at England a couple of days ago they did seem devoid of anyone who could grab them and give them a shake when things were a struggle. The public seemed to say they lacked leadership and if the captain was just the guy with the most caps then it may be understating the value of a leader.

Either way England seem to lack players with those qualities. Most of the time it shouldn't matter but on the occasion when required you look for players to step up. To be fair to Rooney I think he has taken that role on in the past but its a struggle to see a queue of candidates to take over right now.
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Old 29-06-2016, 19:39
NiteOwl12
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It wasn't intended as a dig, apologies, I'm quite new here, all I was surmising was if you felt sufficiently concerned to comment on the matter its surprising you might pass it off as "trivial".

I think its worthy of discussion and a good discussion it is too.
No apology needed
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Old 29-06-2016, 20:41
Meols
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I think the degree to which it matters is dependant on the make up of the team. If you have a team with the likes of Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard etc then who wears the armband doesn't really matter as you have many leader on the pitch who can pull the team through a difficult situation. In these instances I would be in agreement with the "give it to the guy with the most caps" supporters.

However, looking at England a couple of days ago they did seem devoid of anyone who could grab them and give them a shake when things were a struggle. The public seemed to say they lacked leadership and if the captain was just the guy with the most caps then it may be understating the value of a leader.

Either way England seem to lack players with those qualities. Most of the time it shouldn't matter but on the occasion when required you look for players to step up. To be fair to Rooney I think he has taken that role on in the past but its a struggle to see a queue of candidates to take over right now.
My contributions mainly came about due to NiteOwl's suggestion of a captain being appointed on a "match by match" basis, as an interim.

In that event, I don't know what basis we would have for doing it. There seems little to be had by just almost randomly giving it to Kane for one match, Lallana for the next, and so on. If we really don't know, or don't want to bother with a long term captain, and there aren't enough natural leaders out there, it seems to me we have little choice but to make our starting point the most capped player.

We still have to have someone as captain and I would think you want someone who is going to be a regular. You also have to look at whether affording someone like Smalling the responsibility will elevate him and perhaps he will grow into it such that he commands respect, even if it amounts to little more than leading by example.

I'd add that having an armband doesn't suddenly afford special powers to whoever is wearing it. Players can still lead and inspire the players immediately around them. A new manager may even encourage more vocal contributions and this could bring some characters to the fore.

If on the other hand it doesn't actually matter at all and their only role is essentially to hand over the pennant pre kick off then perhaps NiteOwl is right after all that its just a trivial discussion not worth having.
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Old 30-06-2016, 18:32
Xela M
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Schweinsteiger is Germany's captain, but he isn't guaranteed a start these days and is mostly on the bench. They don't even have a co-captain and give the band out on a match by match basis.

Totti is Roma's captain and is mostly on the bench now.

I don't see why a captain needs to be guaranteed a start. That's the mistake England managers of the past have made. Make whoever you want captain, but the manager needs to be able to bench him.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:45
snafu65
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It's the same situation as the manager's job though. there's no obvious replacement, which is a terrible indictment of English football but a fact. There isn't a true leader in the whole squad that I can see.
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Old 01-07-2016, 08:05
Meols
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Schweinsteiger is Germany's captain, but he isn't guaranteed a start these days and is mostly on the bench. They don't even have a co-captain and give the band out on a match by match basis.

Totti is Roma's captain and is mostly on the bench now.

I don't see why a captain needs to be guaranteed a start. That's the mistake England managers of the past have made. Make whoever you want captain, but the manager needs to be able to bench him.
They are two figureheads amongst many leaders and complete exceptions to the rule. You aren't going to choose a captain who isn't going to start matches.

Different and irrelevant point if they already have 100 caps or hundreds of appearances for their club.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:56
Xela M
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They are two figureheads amongst many leaders and complete exceptions to the rule. You aren't going to choose a captain who isn't going to start matches.

Different and irrelevant point if they already have 100 caps or hundreds of appearances for their club.
Who has the most England caps after Rooney? If Rooney is still in the team, it makes sense to leave him as captain.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't make your captain undroppable. No one's position should be guaranteed
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