Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“All fair points but ultimately it comes down to this part I suppose. It depends on the team. You paint a positive picture of how it could work whereas my suspicion tends towards the negative.
With RTD and Moffat, they had in both instances, whichever one personally prefers, a highly accomplished, successful writer, by any objective standard, to steer the show and give it its character. The reason it's possible for people to have such strong views for and against the show as handled by Davies or by Moffat as opposed to the other one is that the show took on their identity as a writer. They made it distinctive. It was their show and they personalized it. As has been seen, that can polarize the hardcore fanbase who individually have very sure ideas how they think the show should be (ie it should have their character) but with the wide audience has been extremely successful. It's one of the factors that stops Doctor Who being just another Sci-Fi / fantasy programme.
Where is this identity coming from if the 'showrunner' is not much more than a glorified head writer on a team of writers? I do fear the show becoming even more generic if it loses the domineering voice of a showrunner in the current style.”
I do agree with what you're saying. The show has always benefited from a strong input and vision from its showrunner. I think especially if you look back at the middle of RTD's era, there were slight concerns with writing credits for stories like The Satan Pit and The Family of Blood - because whilst Matt Jones and Paul Cornell delivered some superb stuff there, RTD went uncredited for his fine-tuning of it all so that it was coherently part of his vision.
Saying this though, we have seen a gradual change more recently with Moffat taking co-credits for episodes in Series 8 and Series 9. Admittedly most people forget that that's the case - few people cite
The Girl Who Died as being written by Moffat and Jamie Mathieson as opposed to just Mathieson. But the will is there to get the co-credit going, which is something we may see a lot more of in the years to come.
The identity of the show has been funadamentally that of its showrunner who takes the biggest credit of all, rightly so. But only rightly so in my opinion because they are indeed more than a glorified head writer. 2009 proved that when Moffat was setting up his own production team on Series 5 whilst RTD was getting on with production on the specials. Maybe it's time we gave more attention to contributors beyond showrunners and writers. There's been an increase in mainstream interest in Doctor Who's directors in recent years - the recognition of Ben Wheatley in Series 8, Rachel Talalay getting more reputable with her efforts in Series 8 and 9, not to mention the constant calls from both fans and non-fans for Peter Jackson to finally get his go.
This may very well be me still taking my optimistic look, and I guess thats inevitable given my fondness for most of Series 9. But I think the showrunner has to encompass more than just the writing, and frankly the current issues with the show do seem to revolve around opinions in the writing. So maintaining a showrunner (Chris Chibnall is never someone I would have chose, but he may yet surprise and impress me) who can establish their own team, but allowing the writing structure to attempt something new might be the proverbial kick up the backside the show needs. Moffat gave us Capaldi, he gave us some great directors, and he gave us some great writers, but there have been stories where the writing isn't up to scratch and where the showrunner has admitted he didn't like his own Series 5 and Series 9 scripts (
The Beast Below and
The Magician's Apprentice, for reference) and ultimately where no amount of greatness has been able to amount to something that satisfies as many as it could.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“Would they be converting to this system if Moffat was staying. Or indeed if, by an improbable series of events RTD was returning? Hell no they wouldn't. I'm cynical maybe but I think there's one reason they are doing this: they don't have a lot of confidence in Chris Chibnall. He's not a standout writer as they were blessed with in the two previous incumbents.”
I agree entirely. I don't rank Chibnall myself as anywhere near as good as either RTD or Moffat. Barring some great work on the home stretch of Torchwood's second series, he's never overly impressed me. Apart from
42 I have never liked one of his Doctor Who episodes - and I'm relatively easy to please. Initially it seemed astounding to me that after several years of fan and mainstream complaints heavily focused on the quality of the writing, that they would settle with Chibnall. But then the announcement of a writers room is what gave me hope again a little bit. RTD was stressed beyond belief by the end of his run, Moffat was so downtrodden by his third series that he contemplated leaving at that point. In addition to that I think it's proving perilous to the BBC right now to be pinning the hopes and expectations of their most lucrative brands on just one person. Top Gear is the prime example - by not securing their assets, and not allowing the show to be more than the sum of its presenters (regardless of whether you like Jeremy Clarkson or not) it's now suffered and the BBC is at a massive loss. They risked Doctor Who as well I think with Moffat stepping down and getting a replacement who couldn't deliver a series until at least late 2017, pushed back to 2018 because of the horrendous outcome of sticking Series 9 in an end of year slot. They stand to lose a lot by piling the pressure onto just one person, and I think scaling back some of the responsibility of the showrunner or at least accommodating that pressure better is a step for good. A writers room will enable that I think, so long as they keep writers with a genuine passion for the show (which has largely never been a problem so far) rather than a bunch of executive types who sit there plotting how to keep things marketable.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“You talk up the variety inherent already within the format of Doctor Who but I don't really agree. I think the show at its worst becomes highly generic. Ultimately it doesn't matter what planet they're on or what time period they're in because the formula is mostly identical anyway. Viking England is not really any different to Victorian England, which isn't any different to the far future, which isn't any different to gallifrey. It's just a week to week change in window dressing. The potential for an episode to really feel fresh and interesting comes from a writer (and / or director etc) with a strong vision and a unique way of handling the story. You don't get that strong vision with a story that has been passed around a table.”
I've always thought that Doctor Who had one of the most tough and challenging demands of writers of any show on mainstream TV. It asks its writer to introduce, establish and explore a whole new bunch of supporting characters every week, introduce, explore and usually resolve a plot every week, intertwine both the characters and the plot in a satisfying way that the viewer will care about, and then intergrate the Doctor and his companion into it somehow too without making it feel like he's just dropping in to save the day. All of that, with additional consideration to a limited budget, limited filming locations and a filming schedule. It achieves this to varying degrees of success - some real low moments, but also some astounding ones. It becomes easy to run out of time to explore character, or to preoccupy ourselves with as you describe it 'window dressing'. I feel the show works best when it manages to find the time to explore moral dilemma, or unfamiliar ideas of culture, or is historically insightful. The loss of historical figures in Moffat's era has made the historical episodes far less interesting (granted it's a bit much to assume the Doctor would meet a famous person every single time he lands in the past), as one example.
I don't think a writers room will have to cost the show the chance to explore deeper ideas. But it will mean there's a shared consensus as to where characters are headed. We won't be threatened with another Series 7 Clara, who was rewritten as contemporary at the last minute and who writers like Neil Gaiman admitted they had no idea of how to write her because she was an 'enigma'. These things can be discussed, the sense of character and identity in the show stands the chance at least of being much more coherent and fine-tuned. There's nothing to say that the plots and episode developments themselves won't still fall to the individual writers. They will still have full sway over the supporting characters of their own individual stories. And that's personally why I think it could work. Doctor Who isn't a serial drama and it never will be, it will still maintain something of the monster-of-the-week feel. Each writer will leave their stamp with the story they decide to tell. But maybe some more sufficient communication between them all will lead to stronger lead characters and more succint recurring elements. I don't suspect a table of writers will try and interfere with elements in standalone stories, it will be for the benefit of those aspects that recur. Story and character arcs could be much more effective, rather than being an 'insert keyword in episode somewhere' to sum it all up.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“But I don't think that's any better than a character they all had a hand in creating. In fact, in the latter instance there is no 'true' version of the character, as different writers will all have their own ideas how best to portray them. You no longer have a platonically 'correct' version of the character. ... Again, I personally favour one man's vision”
Without trying to sound too deep about all this, people are generally shaped by the people and the experiences around them. You gain your emotional responses, your opinions, your strengths and your weaknesses from different people in your life. You feel conflict and contradiction because you can see two different points of view, and feel more than one thing at the same time. It's messy and it's human. Some shows that have a writers room approach have characters with these multiple layers and this complexity to them and I consider some of those shows to be the best ones out there. That's not to say one man's vision cannot work, but then it does also run the risk of being very linear, and characters can easily become a vessel for the one writers outlook. Moffat has been rightly or wrongly criticised by many people for his writing of women, often for their Mary Sue personas. I personally feel he's gotten better at it over time, but that many of his female characters are lacking in complexity and are too 'tidy'. There's no proof Doctor Who could manage to deliver more complex characters when it is still stuck with that tough 45-minute format and has to do all the things I listed above. But I'd love to see it give it a go.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“Your example of Game of Thrones is an interesting one because it's a good example of what i'm saying: that show is based, however loosely, on a series of books and so there is already in place for the writers a series of platonically correct characters that were conceived by one man: George Martin.”
But then consider that the recent sixth season was based on content that went beyond the reaches of the books, and that a good number of the main characters and the popular characters in the show are ones that were barely fleshed out at all in the books. The recent finale to the sixth season had a strong sense of character about it - characters killed that people cared about, the show had its first suicide which nobody saw coming until it made perfect sense given the circumstances, and the horrific actions of one character have been foreshadowed with subtlety over the past three or four seasons - a character that easily ranks as one of the viewers favourites.
We're not getting a writers room to replace the showrunner, that's an outcome I wouldn't like to see. We're getting both. I think Chris Chibnall's vision will be at the heart of it all and he'll have the support of a well-established set of writers to make it work. He's the George RR Martin of this picture. Six or seven people may get a hand in how a certain character is crafted, but it remains part of one persons fundamental vision. And they're all going to work together to share that vision. It'll also mean we hopefully get some less predictable writing, and won't always assume it to be the showrunner-penned episodes where big developments could happen. Part of the excitement of Game of Thrones is that you never know when they'll pull the rug from beneath your feet with a big revelation or twist. Doctor Who does that to some extent - were it not for the foreshadowing Clara's exit in newcomer Sarah Dollard's script would have been a massive twist. The show can do more things like that and hopefully more effectively if all the writers have a hand in how its done. But this again does indeed fall down to whether you have confidence in the writing team in question. I may end up siding with you entirely once they announce the Series 11 writers.