• TV
  • MOVIES
  • MUSIC
  • SHOWBIZ
  • SOAPS
  • GAMING
  • TECH
  • FORUMS
  • Follow
    • Follow
    • facebook
    • twitter
    • google+
    • instagram
    • youtube
Hearst Corporation
  • TV
  • MOVIES
  • MUSIC
  • SHOWBIZ
  • SOAPS
  • GAMING
  • TECH
  • FORUMS
Forums
  • Register
  • Login
  • Forums
  • Entertainment
  • Sport
The Tennis Thread (Part 31)
<<
<
394 of 420
>>
>
Jenny1986
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by computermaster:
“Comparing sports against each other just doesn't work imo. Murray is deserving of the title for sure but then there are probably others who have achieved a lot in their sports and are just as deserving.”

I don't know how popular it would be, but Nick Skelton is up there for me. And Steve Redgrave, if only for the great achievement of not throttling John Inverdale in Rio!
tennisman
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“Although I am a huge Murray fan, I have huge misgivings over the best ever stuff because of comparison issues, which is why I don't tend to offer my opinion on such things.”

Agree, TB.

I don't even do it in tennis across decades / eras, let alone other sports or what used to be called pub pastimes now defined as sport.

I'm not going to compare Andy M (who I think is fantastic) with say Fred Perry, a comparioson that you do see from time to time.

Immediately you get the issue from a comparison perspective of which era do you appraise both players in?

Do you put Andy back into the 1930's and have him train and play there with those methods and racquets on those courts within the mindset, tennis culture of the time?

Or do you bring Fred forward and do the same for today with him in Andy's time?

Reading Perry's story a while back, he had to face societal snobbery about being from the 'wrong side of the tracks' and then lead the way as far as training methods to get him fit enough not to lose in a 5th set due to fitness. He went and trained with Arsenal at Highbury through the winter.

In some ways, this sort of action actually puts him into the Ivan Lendl / Navratilova box as they were the ones who set new and different standards as far as training and a holistic, total body fitness perspective.

Fast forward to today, has any pro worked harder on getting into the best possible shape than Andy from simply how we've seen him transformed physically and then how this improvement has established a better platform for other improvements in his game, technically, tactically and mentally?

Both Andy and Fred = top players and Champions.

PS A piece of random information on Perry's era is on diet. The great Big Bill Tilden's favourite meal was a huge steak, followed by a huge tub of vanilla ice cream, washed down with a huge pot of black coffee!
tennisman
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jenny1986:
“I always assume she is way older than that, closer to 27. I guess it's because I have known about her since she won Jr Wimbledon. Seems like she has been around forever.”

Which I think she did as a 14 year-old, Jenny!

The weight of tennis / nationalistic expectation was well and truly dumped on her / washed over her / wrapped around her (delete as appropriate) from that point on.

I've posted on a few occasions what I'd try and get her to do from my ex coach perspective but all I'll say here is that at 23, she still has lots of time to develop and hopefully in the right direction.

Of course, she has to stay injury free and possible, this is her biggest challenge considering the huge commitment that is required from every perspective to get anywhere near the top and then to stay there?
anyonefortennis
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by seansnotmyname@:
“TBF that was probably the highlight of the tournament for me




Just in the IPTL. Think it wouldn't be a bad rule, Ana seems to manage it here, so why not the rest of the time, it can get bloody ridiculous.”

I agree. Venus takes the Mickey sometimes the way she takes 2 or 3 times to serve.
tartan-belle
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by anyonefortennis:
“I agree. Venus takes the Mickey sometimes the way she takes 2 or 3 times to serve.”

I think it's fitting how we are also sort of discussing Laura at the same time as this conversation is going on as well...
anyonefortennis
11-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“I think it's fitting how we are also sort of discussing Laura at the same time as this conversation is going on as well... ”

Oh yeah. She does it a lot as well. I think they should lose their first serve or the point if it's a second serve if they do it more than twice.
*Sparkle*
12-12-2016
Originally Posted by tennisman:
“Reading Perry's story a while back, he had to face societal snobbery about being from the 'wrong side of the tracks' and then lead the way as far as training methods to get him fit enough not to lose in a 5th set due to fitness. He went and trained with Arsenal at Highbury through the winter.

In some ways, this sort of action actually puts him into the Ivan Lendl / Navratilova box as they were the ones who set new and different standards as far as training and a holistic, total body fitness perspective.

Fast forward to today, has any pro worked harder on getting into the best possible shape than Andy from simply how we've seen him transformed physically and then how this improvement has established a better platform for other improvements in his game, technically, tactically and mentally?

Both Andy and Fred = top players and Champions.
!”

I agree it is hard to compare eras, because people do what is normal within those eras. In absolute terms, modern athletes will beat those from fifty years ago for all kinds of reasons, but better and greater are different things. It is fair to say that many of the best in any era are trend-setters. Many scoffed at Murray for using his winnings to employ a team of experts, thinking it was an indulgence and he wanted to be pampered, and the same with his coaches. Some would say he was blaming them for losses, but the reality is he was always trying to find that extra few percent. He's being copied by others, right down to the rise of the 'super-coach'.

What I would say about tennis is that Wimbledon is more competitive now than it was in the early days when it was mainly Brits winning. With modern transport, and all players being on the same tour, and being a professional tour, it means that the sport is more open. Perry played during a transitional time, when the sport was opening up, so a lot more competitive than twenty years previous, but less competitive than now. There is a second argument about Perry fighting against prejudice, but he was still British, and I'd say it was much harder for a talented player from Eastern Europe to get to Wimbledon. Of course, Murray isn't from the country club set either, and you do wonder if that helps to give you a competitive edge. See also the players from Eastern Europe.
seansnotmyname@
12-12-2016
When Perry won Wimbledon it had been 25 years before the last male Brit champion I think, not quite a Perry-Murray gap, but a quarter of a century.

We did win a few OZ opens in that time, but I guess those would have been very depleted fields as travel there would not have been easy.
tennisman
12-12-2016
Originally Posted by *Sparkle*:
“I agree it is hard to compare eras, because people do what is normal within those eras. In absolute terms, modern athletes will beat those from fifty years ago for all kinds of reasons, but better and greater are different things. It is fair to say that many of the best in any era are trend-setters. Many scoffed at Murray for using his winnings to employ a team of experts, thinking it was an indulgence and he wanted to be pampered, and the same with his coaches. Some would say he was blaming them for losses, but the reality is he was always trying to find that extra few percent. He's being copied by others, right down to the rise of the 'super-coach'.

What I would say about tennis is that Wimbledon is more competitive now than it was in the early days when it was mainly Brits winning. With modern transport, and all players being on the same tour, and being a professional tour, it means that the sport is more open. Perry played during a transitional time, when the sport was opening up, so a lot more competitive than twenty years previous, but less competitive than now. There is a second argument about Perry fighting against prejudice, but he was still British, and I'd say it was much harder for a talented player from Eastern Europe to get to Wimbledon. Of course, Murray isn't from the country club set either, and you do wonder if that helps to give you a competitive edge. See also the players from Eastern Europe.”

I agree with all of that Sparkle, although I'd ask what you mean when you say 'mainly Brits winning'.

Do you mean in the early rounds or the actual title or titles?

As far as my knowledge goes, the Brits have never had a great record there, although if we did the analysis. we might find a few more Brits in the main draw pre 1960's say.

Having lived through all the Wimbledon's from the mid 60's onwards, the Brits have nearly always done poorly with a few exceptions (e.g. Taylor, a bit of Cox / Mottram / Lloyd, 1993 for the early rounds and then a wait until Henman / Murray in the men and Jones, Wade and a bit of Durie and then not much else in the women - Heather???).

Even Perry was an exception as has been noted above. We did have Bunny Austin too at that time but as you say, the degree of competitiveness was nothing like now.

I haven't looked back as far as the late 1800's and the days of the Renshaw twins and Lotte Dodd etc (when the tournament was played at the end of the garden of my flat in SW19!!!) but that's such a long time ago.

The competitiveness is something Fred Stolle talked about at a few Tennis Fantasy Camps where he explained how the system worked in the 1960's before the sport went open and a ranking system was started (early/mid 1970's).

Back then, the AELTC sent invitations to all National Associations affiliated with the ITF and these bodies could send 2 players to the tournament. This, in turn, meant that the likes of Stolle might face someone who might be called a good 'Country Club' player in the early rounds. Effectively, players like Fred, the top Aussies and Americans would not really have to worry until at least the 3rd, if not the 4th round (into week 2).

By the late 60's and certainly into the 70's, things began to heat up a bit and with the ranking system, it created a working model for determining levels.

I've mentioned before that even a decade ago, a kid I'd been involved with (although not coached personally) won 1 x ATP point after doing well in a series of Satellite (now Futures) events. His point gave him a ranking of +1,500!!!!!.

Whilst so many young people worldwide continue to chase the dream via the competitive junior tennis journey up into the lower levels of the adult pro structure, there are arguments that the sort of prize money reallocation many seek doesn't have to take place. Quite simply, the laws of demand and supply mean that as a few players drop off the grid or give up, their places are taken by others (a good topic for another post / debate).

Again, if we did some quantitative analysis, we would find significant increases in numbers of players from Eastern Europe (started in the mid/late 1990's) and SE Asia from India right up / across to Japan trying to make it.

Nowadays, I think the 'country club set' factor is less important than one of cash. Assuming a certain level of skill / talent and a commitment to work your butt off, if you have the money behind you for all the associated costs of the journey, you stand a chance, although there are absolutely no certainties. Even with absolute commitment and the best mental toughness to stick it out, every player is still just one bad injury away from failure.

At least the ranking system nontheless, once players get on the court, provides a sort of meritocratic pathway to the top; you win the matches, you will rise up and get paid incrementally more and more, especially once you hit the top 50, even though very few will reach such levels.
tartan-belle
12-12-2016
So...if the forums go south do we have a back up plan??

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/annou....php?f=8&a=397
seansnotmyname@
12-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“So...if the forums go south do we have a back up plan??

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/annou....php?f=8&a=397”

16,000 people banned, reckon they should all be allowed back at once, think of the chaos
Irishguy123
12-12-2016
Originally Posted by seansnotmyname@:
“16,000 people banned, reckon they should all be allowed back at once, think of the chaos”

It'd be fun, but the tennis thread would basically just become a 'Murray hates England!!!1!' thread, which wouldn't be quite as much fun.

It'll be interesting to see the new forum though, I'm glad that we'll be able to like each others posts but not so glad about the dislike function. The notifications thing will be good too, Boards.ie already has most of these functions and they're pretty handy.
tartan-belle
12-12-2016
More coach swings & roundabouts: this time, Genie Bouchard
Lisa.B
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“So...if the forums go south do we have a back up plan??

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/annou....php?f=8&a=397”

The mods have been replying in this thread with a bit more detail on some of the new features. New emojis! I hope we get a vomit one to replace this anaemic looking chap -

Also tennis gifs ahoy! Our assimilation into TF-lite is almost complete.
Jenny1986
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“More coach swings & roundabouts: this time, Genie Bouchard”

I just don't know what to think about Genie anymore, she is becoming more irrelevant by the day. So any coach change from her is expected. She's still young and could improve though.

Interestingly, Garbine and Sam Sumyk appear to be sticking together. She put up a picture of them practicing in LA. They must think there is more work to do together.

The new forum sounds good, I like this one but it is a bit antiquated. Posting media should be fun!
*Sparkle*
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by tennisman:
“I agree with all of that Sparkle, although I'd ask what you mean when you say 'mainly Brits winning'.

Do you mean in the early rounds or the actual title or titles?

As far as my knowledge goes, the Brits have never had a great record there, although if we did the analysis. we might find a few more Brits in the main draw pre 1960's say.”

If you look at this list of winners, then it was dominated by the Brits in the early and years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...gles_champions

In those days, international players would travel by boat to reach Great Britain, so it's not really a surprise that not so many bothered. I'm sure there is an equivalent in reverse for the Tour de France.

It will have opened up a lot by the time Perry was playing, but nothing like today. It's one of the reasons that Margaret Court's record is considered less impressive than Navratalova and Serena.
tennisman
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by *Sparkle*:
“If you look at this list of winners, then it was dominated by the Brits in the early and years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...gles_champions

In those days, international players would travel by boat to reach Great Britain, so it's not really a surprise that not so many bothered. I'm sure there is an equivalent in reverse for the Tour de France.

It will have opened up a lot by the time Perry was playing, but nothing like today. It's one of the reasons that Margaret Court's record is considered less impressive than Navratalova and Serena.”

Great link, Sparkle, thanks and I see what you mean.

Looks like it changed after The Great War.

Stood next to Court at the salad bar in the Melbourne Hilton back in 1993 and didn't recognise her as we switched places on the line! Was walking back to my table (to Cliff Drysdale!) and realised who she was.

Again, with Court v. Martina v Serena, you get back into the same era v era argument rationales we began with higher up.

It's interesting looking at those 3 names as in Court's and Martina's times, everyone played doubles where in Serena's time, although she has played and still plays doubles now, it has faded as a priority for the top players (although perhaps less so for the women as opposed to the men)

I prefer to look at each era (in as much as these can be defined) and recognise those who were dominant at the time.

Across S, D and MD, Court's 66 Slams, Martina's 59 and Serena's 38 are all simply fantastic achievements.

The slightly lower number for Serena (considering her singles component is bigger than the others') is a reflection of the changing times on the tour and the focus given to the different events and especially in relation to the money paid and the competitiveness.

Court (and my Legend buddies) played all the events 'cos that's what everyone did; it was the culture and even when the game went open, it was necessary to earn a living as much as an opportunity to earn more money and get rich.

By Martina's time, it was still the culture, although the money had risen up considerably.

Martina would have been a rich women as a singles only player but not only loved doubles but was the best in the world at it and it was still revered by the players.

Pre-the frames / strings of today, other than the French where Evert was the constant thorn, Martina could also use doubles to practice continually her serve and volley game style.

By Serena's time, the money was huge and could allow the top players to focus more on singles (some would say, HAD to concentrate more) with doubles less important and more time for other activities outside the sport.

PS Thinking about those pre-1914 times, across many sports it was almost as if the international incarnations of each sport were for an elite few as quite simply, sport at a recreational level was still growing and with trans-continental boat trips often involved to reach international events, as you mention, the cost of taking part at the highest levels were for the monied few.

You also had people like C.B. Fry who played football, cricket and was an athlete for his country all at the same time.
tartan-belle
13-12-2016
Milan will host the #Next Gen ATP Finals.

There's another one released tomorrow but for now, the old video of ATP players singing the 12 days of Christmas (badly!)


2016 in Delpo gifs


Dreddy gifs

Stan gifs


These have actually made my day!
Jenny1986
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“Milan will host the #Next Gen ATP Finals.

There's another one released tomorrow but for now, the old video of ATP players singing the 12 days of Christmas (badly!)


2016 in Delpo gifs


Dreddy gifs

Stan gifs


These have actually made my day!”

That 12 days of christmas video is tragic in the best way possible.

There was one epic miss from Stan in that gif. lol
tartan-belle
13-12-2016
Originally Posted by Jenny1986:
“That 12 days of christmas video is tragic in the best way possible.

There was one epic miss from Stan in that gif. lol”

The new ATP Christmas video is probably just as tragic when it's out tomorrow
Lisa.B
13-12-2016
The Stan gif where he loses his racquet.

Originally Posted by tartan-belle:
“The new ATP Christmas video is probably just as tragic when it's out tomorrow ”

Looking forward to that!
tartan-belle
13-12-2016
ooops error
Lisa.B
16-12-2016
Who fancies a Caribbean cruise with Jennifer Capriati? How many legends will actually make it back to shore? Other travellers include - Evert, Davenport, ASV, BMS, Safarova and of course that err well known legend Shelby Rogers...

Great article here about Dinara Safina's new life in NYC, how she got bored of trying to do normal after her enforced retirement and the happy place she's in now doing coaching.

Maria had fun in Puerto Rico.

https://twitter.com/yonalebron/statu...72689992097792
https://twitter.com/BreakPointBR/sta...73661128724480
https://twitter.com/MariaSharapova/s...81458629959680

Jingle Bells!!
tartan-belle
16-12-2016
Ah....we're back!
Irishguy123
16-12-2016
I thought the new forum was supposed to be up, no?


Originally Posted by Lisa.B:
“Who fancies a Caribbean cruise with Jennifer Capriati? How many legends will actually make it back to shore? Other travellers include - Evert, Davenport, ASV, BMS, Safarova and of course that err well known legend Shelby Rogers... ”

My thoughts exactly I'd be keeping my cabin locked if I knew Capriati was in the vicinity, that's for sure.

Re Shelby Rogers, well... she is a "World Team Tennis Champion"
<<
<
394 of 420
>>
>
VIEW DESKTOP SITE TOP

JOIN US HERE

  • Facebook
  • Twitter

Hearst Corporation

Hearst Corporation

DIGITAL SPY, PART OF THE HEARST UK ENTERTAINMENT NETWORK

© 2015 Hearst Magazines UK is the trading name of the National Magazine Company Ltd, 72 Broadwick Street, London, W1F 9EP. Registered in England 112955. All rights reserved.

  • Terms & Conditions
  • Privacy Policy
  • Cookie Policy
  • Complaints
  • Site Map